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The Hazards of Belief

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  • Options
    #9032
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,278 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    recedite wrote: »
    They still would have been attacked, but the judge would have been obliged to prosecute the attackers.
    In the aftermath, the result would have been no further attacks, and greater subsequent freedom for people professing a minority religion (and atheists)


    the attackers WERE prosecuted.


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    #9033
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    the attackers WERE prosecuted.
    Not my reading of it. The article says "Charges were dismissed under the probation act".


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    #9034
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,278 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    recedite wrote: »
    Not my reading of it. The article says "Charges were dismissed under the probation act".


    assuming we are both referring to the independent article the attackers were prosecuted


    Two months after the Clonlara showdown, Limerick District Court was packed to the rafters for the rematch. Fr Ryan and ten others were charged with assault and malicious damage. It was reported that when the Bishop of Killaloe arrived, "the crowded courtroom rose to their feet". Counsel for the mob began by reading from a Jehovah's Witness text which stated that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was of pagan origin and authored by Satan himself. Miller told the court that this was so.


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    #9035
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Meanwhile, in the idollic tropical islands of the Maldives, an art installation called the Coralarium has been "modified" by the authorities. Creepy figures loitering on top of it and inside it were destroyed for being "un-Islamic" :D


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f43QkfFmxFs



    https://www.theartnewspaper.com/news/authorities-destroy-sculptures-in-the-maldives


  • Options
    #9036
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    assuming we are both referring to the independent article the attackers were prosecuted
    OK, well "not successfully prosecuted" then.


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    #9037
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Changing the social attitudes is the key to getting rid of the blasphemy offence, not the other way around.

    To be fair, i think those changes have by and large taken place and the Ireland in that article is no more than history. Religìous belief does not need special legal protection beyond what we have in terms of incitement to hatred. The legal position of blasphemy clearly also needs to be consigned to the past. We also have the issue that in a multicultural society on person's god given truth might be blasphemous to the next. Let the law protect the citizens and the gods look after themselves ;)


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    #9038
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,197 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    smacl wrote: »
    To be fair, i think those changes have by and large taken place and the Ireland in that article is no more than history. Religìous belief does not need special legal protection beyond what we have in terms of incitement to hatred. The legal position of blasphemy clearly also needs to be consigned to the past. We also have the issue that in a multicultural society on person's god given truth might be blasphemous to the next. Let the law protect the citizens and the gods look after themselves ;)
    I agree, and I heartily approve of the deletion of the constitutional provision about blasphemy, and the repeal of the criminal offence.

    I guess what I'm really driving at here is the nature of the injury done by having an offence in the first place, if no-one is ever prosecuted? You might suggest that it's injurious because some time in the 1950s somebody expressed the view that somebody else ought to be prosecuted, even though they never were. But I'd have to say that, seventy years after the event, that's a pretty weak kind of injury. It seems to me that the real injury here, and the one we should be most concerned about, is not the theoretical possiblity of injury to individuals who might have been prosecuted either in the 1950s or today; it's the injury to the character of the Republic from having such a provision in place at all. Even if nobody is ever prosecuted this provision is offensive and degrading in ways that don't depend at all on arguing that the risk of prosecution is or ever was greater than is claimed.


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    #9039
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    But I'd have to say that, seventy years after the event, that's a pretty weak kind of injury. It seems to me that the real injury here, and the one we should be most concerned about, is not the theoretical possiblity of injury to individuals who might have been prosecuted either in the 1950s or today; it's the injury to the character of the Republic from having such a provision in place at all.
    That too. But I'm surprised at you effectively belittling the events described above, which actually happened to real people. Towns run by priests were allowed by the law to silence religious opposition and in some cases to organise mobs to beat up the blasphemers and run them out of town. That could only happen lawfully because blasphemy was an offence and was unconstitutional.
    High minded notions of "the republic" are more pertinent nowadays, because these laws are no longer used against individual people in the same way. Though the laws are still hanging around, like a lingering bad smell.


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    #9040
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Even if nobody is ever prosecuted this provision is offensive and degrading in ways that don't depend at all on arguing that the risk of prosecution is or ever was greater than is claimed.

    There is also a chilling effect of rules like this. How many editors looked at an article or a cartoon over the years and wondered if it was pushing the boundary, and decided to spike a story or a joke?

    How much did this provision influence editorial policy at the likes of RTÉ? This is a bit like the 8th amendment - the law and enforcement of it is only a part of its influence, the 8th also influenced written policies in hospitals, the HSE etc. where no-one could write or enact an official policy which is unconstitutional.

    We will never really know the extent of this influence, but it is worth ending it.

    Case in point: The Life Of Brian was banned for 7 years in the 80s.


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    #9041
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    There's also the fact that some pretty vile regimes around the world can use it to claim that their blasphemy laws (which actually get used) aren't that unusual or harmful when a country like ours has one too.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #9042
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    There's also the fact that some pretty vile regimes around the world can use it to claim that their blasphemy laws (which actually get used) aren't that unusual or harmful when a country like ours has one too.

    Agreed, though as per Peregrinus' post, I'd be more concerned with the dubious reverse optic that Ireland has something in common with these theocracies. It no doubt did in the past, but I don't believe this is the case any more and we need to promote an image internationally that is an accurate reflection of Ireland today. The clandestine power of the church in this country is a rather pale shadow of what it once was.


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    #9043
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Mostly yes - but the school patronage thread is proof that the pale shadow still has rather a lot more power than it should.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #9044
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,197 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    That too. But I'm surprised at you effectively belittling the events described above, which actually happened to real people . . .
    I don't mean to belittle the events; just the role played by the existence of a blasphemy offence. A prosecution for blasphemy was never likely - the actions of the authorities make that clear - and, if there had been no blasphemy offence, I don't think these events would have unfolded differently.
    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    There is also a chilling effect of rules like this. How many editors looked at an article or a cartoon over the years and wondered if it was pushing the boundary, and decided to spike a story or a joke?
    To be honest, hardly at all. Editor were well aware that the blasphemy offence was obsolete, and never prosecuted. I think if they spiked articles or cartoons it was because of concern about public reaction, the response of advertisers, etc, and not at all out of a fear that they might be charged.
    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    There's also the fact that some pretty vile regimes around the world can use it to claim that their blasphemy laws (which actually get used) aren't that unusual or harmful when a country like ours has one too.
    Yes. I agree with this point. I doubt that many of these regimes have or apply their blasphemy laws because[/i\] we do, or that they would repeal theirs if we repealed ours, but I am still unhappy at ours being cited by them in an attempt at justification.


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    #9045
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    if there had been no blasphemy offence, I don't think these events would have unfolded differently.
    I have to disagree. The attackers would have been punished by the law. The existence of the blasphemy offence allowed them to "get off" almost as if it was a case of self defence (and in their minds they were defending the town).
    The JWs could have stayed in the town, and maybe even set up shop. Other religions might then have done the same. Atheists might have been able to speak their minds.
    The whole social history of Ireland might have been altered. Who knows what would have transpired in this (hypothetical) alternative historical timeline.


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    #9046
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Cultural catholic IT correspondent Conor Pope who baptised his infant daughter for the lols, gets catholic nastygram from Oop North, via Alive! magazine

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/apparently-i-m-going-to-hell-for-baptising-my-daughter-that-s-a-bit-harsh-1.3647743
    I read everything with interest and – to be honest – confusion. I’ve no real issue with people of any faith as long as they don’t seek to impose their views on those who don’t choose to share them and I was at a loss as to why I had been selected for damnation. Could they not find an address for Roisin Ingle, Fintan O’Toole or Patsy McGarry?

    The key to the puzzle was staring me in the face. The envelope was addressed to “Mr Conor Pope, c/o Alive”. It included a request that the publishers of the freesheet which is delivered to some homes in Ireland and deposited in some Catholic churches redirect it straight to me.

    It dawned on me that I was being warned about my fiery eternity because I baptised my daughter earlier this year. Now this was an act so abhorrent to an anonymous author at Alive – What’s with this reluctance to put a name to a view lads? – that they put me on the cover of a recent edition of their “news” paper under the compelling, if entirely false, headline: “Conor Pope mock’s his own child’s baptism”. The front page blurb directed readers to a piece inside which called me “smart”. It said some other stuff too but I like to dwell on positives.


    Earlier article: https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/my-little-girl-became-a-catholic-it-was-the-right-decision-for-us-1.3528984

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #9047
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Cultural catholic IT correspondent Conor Pope who baptised his infant daughter for the lols

    I think every parent has a right to raise their children in the religion of their choice, so I sent my children to Catholic schools to become atheists like me.


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    #9048
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Its kinda funny. From their respective positions, both Mr. Pope and his anonymous tormentor seem like trolls.
    From the other's point of view.


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    #9049
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Angry Priest refuses to officiate at a wedding after finding his church has been landscaped with cherry trees, lanterns and two thrones (for the bride and groom).
    https://www.thevow.ie/the-final-say/wedding-talk/carnage-as-wicklow-wedding-is-delayed-when-priest-refuses-to-say-mass-until-church-decor-is-removed-37385003.html


    I guess that puts the kybosh on my idea for a dream Lord of The Rings themed church wedding, with bride's family dressed as orcs, animatronic fire-breathing dragons circling above in the rafters, and bride and groom arriving mounted on wargs.


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    #9050
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Things are bad in Waterford and Lismore. Very bad indeed. What with Reiki and Satan doing the rounds. But cometh the hour, cometh the man. In the form of Bishop Alphonsus Cullinan - "We're finding our feet in this area", he explained in a radio interview:

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/bishop-is-setting-up-team-of-exorcists-warns-against-evil-spirits-in-reiki-and-other-healing-methods-874665.html


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    #9051
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    robindch wrote: »
    Things are bad in Waterford and Lismore. Very bad indeed. What with Reiki and Satan doing the rounds. But cometh the hour, cometh the man. In the form of Bishop Alphonsus Cullinan - "We're finding our feet in this area", he explained in a radio interview:

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/bishop-is-setting-up-team-of-exorcists-warns-against-evil-spirits-in-reiki-and-other-healing-methods-874665.html

    Where do they even find these nutters? We seriously need to replace mandatory religious education classes in our schools with mandatory critical thinking classes.


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    #9052
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    smacl wrote: »
    ...mandatory critical thinking classes.

    Your ideas intrigue me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.


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    #9053
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    robindch wrote: »
    Things are bad in Waterford and Lismore. Very bad indeed. What with Reiki and Satan doing the rounds.
    Speaking to Eamon Keane on WLR FM's Deise Today programme, the bishop said: "You're channelling energies, in inverted commas, you could well be opening yourself up to letting a spirit in which is not good and is dangerous stuff, actually."

    "I am just setting up a group, actually, of people who want to be part of delivery ministry, if you like."

    Can imagine Fonsie and his crew in the lycra on bicycles with big boxes on the back, crucifix and chalice and communion wafers inside, and a logo - Deliverance-oo? They'd need some sort of app to ensure they get there quickly while the demonic possession is still hot!

    Surprised he didn't mention the yoga while he was at it:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057246416

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Options
    #9054
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    recedite wrote: »
    Angry Priest refuses to officiate at a wedding after finding his church has been landscaped with cherry trees, lanterns and two thrones (for the bride and groom).
    https://www.thevow.ie/the-final-say/wedding-talk/carnage-as-wicklow-wedding-is-delayed-when-priest-refuses-to-say-mass-until-church-decor-is-removed-37385003.html

    You're not allowed decorate or play music they disapprove of* inside a HSE registry office, I don't see why people would expect to be able to do these things inside a church. At the reception venue, knock yourselves out (or just get married in the reception venue, with a humanist celebrant, if you can get one.)

    * Religious music for the HSE, non-religious music in most but not all catholic churches

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #9055
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,040 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    robindch wrote: »
    Things are bad in Waterford and Lismore. Very bad indeed. What with Reiki and Satan doing the rounds. But cometh the hour, cometh the man. In the form of Bishop Alphonsus Cullinan - "We're finding our feet in this area", he explained in a radio interview:

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/bishop-is-setting-up-team-of-exorcists-warns-against-evil-spirits-in-reiki-and-other-healing-methods-874665.html


    If he needs help finding his head, I've a good idea where he should start.


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    #9056
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,040 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    robindch wrote: »
    Things are bad in Waterford and Lismore. Very bad indeed. What with Reiki and Satan doing the rounds. But cometh the hour, cometh the man. In the form of Bishop Alphonsus Cullinan - "We're finding our feet in this area", he explained in a radio interview:

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/bishop-is-setting-up-team-of-exorcists-warns-against-evil-spirits-in-reiki-and-other-healing-methods-874665.html


    It appears that Alph has form

    In an inteview with the Irish Times, Bishop Alphonsus Cullinan suggested that the Gardasil vaccine is only ’70 per cent safe’ and that the experience of the Regret group who have concerns it should not be ‘rubbished’.
    Although the vaccine is backed by the World Health Organisation and other scientific bodies, he maintains there are ‘conflicting opinions’ about its safety.
    Bishop Cullinan suggested that the money being spent on obtaining the injection would be better spent on encouraging young people to stay chaste.
    He also says that the vaccination may lead women to engage in unsafe sexual activity leading to increased risk of infection and serious health problems.


    https://www.wlrfm.com/2017/09/28/17343/


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    #9057
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Odhinn wrote: »
    It appears that Alph has form
    Temporary form, as it turned out:
    Alph the Bish wrote:
    I wish to apologise for contributing to any misinformation, or indeed for causing upset to anyone, concerning use of the human papilloma virus (HPV) vaccines. My intervention was in response to concerns which I had received about HPV vaccines from parents wishing to make the best health decision on behalf of their children, and from young people alike. My intention was solely motivated to protect people from the HPV. I was not fully informed about the vaccination programme and I can see now how HPV vaccines can contribute greatly to lowering the rate of cervical cancer. As I have learnt, possession of full information is paramount on this vital health issue.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/bishop-apology-3625782-Oct2017/


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    #9058
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    You're not allowed decorate or play music they disapprove of* inside a HSE registry office, I don't see why people would expect to be able to do these things inside a church.

    One we went to must've missed that memo. We went for Ramones, Frank Zappa and Fatboy Slim when we tied the knot. The registrar loved the playlist we'd put together and asked to keep the CD.


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    #9059
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    smacl wrote: »
    One we went to must've missed that memo. We went for Ramones, Frank Zappa and Fatboy Slim when we tied the knot. The registrar loved the playlist we'd put together and asked to keep the CD.

    Wouldn't call any of those religious music myself, smacl, but that's a matter of opinion I suppose... we had the Ramones too.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #9060
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Wouldn't call any of those religious music myself, smacl, but that's a matter of opinion I suppose... we had the Ramones too.

    Wash your mouth out! Dee dee, Frank and Norman are the holy trinity :P


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    #9061
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Hazard of belief... massive sense of entitlement.

    Priest left ‘feeling flat’ after visit of Pope Francis, meeting hears
    Referring to the visit of Pope Francis, the draft letter described it as “a strange few days. On the one hand, the palpable delight of so many...and the lift it has given to the Irish Church. On the other, a sinking feeling that the visit and the expectations it generated were derailed by an unexpected, though not unpredicted, focus on the sexual abuse issue.”

    How on earth could they not expect that?
    The draft letter continued: “What surprised and upset so many (not just Catholics but priests and, no doubt, bishops too) was the virulence of the negative commentary and the lack of engagement by so many Catholics with the visit.”

    It was “a stunning reminder that the Catholic Church in Ireland is now in a different place and that the challenges deserve and demand our unremitting focus on the reforms proposed by Pope Francis”. Otherwise the Church “will become more and more peripheral in the lives of more and more Catholics and less and less credible in our society,” it said.

    Less credible? Is that possible? :confused:
    Another priest who wanted to retire at 67 after 40 years service was told he had no financial rights to a pension and now lived in his family’s home on the State pension.

    Fr Long also queried the right of bishops to include the State pension when assessing a priest’s post-retirement income as the bishop makes no contribution to that pension since he is not considered an employer under law. “Are we genuinely self-employed?” asked Fr Long of the meeting.

    Even in retirement they want to maintain a lifestyle many of their parishioners cannot dream of achieving.

    I wonder what the taxation status is of all those €50 notes they get at baptisms and weddings (funerals too probably, nothing would surprise me)
    Fr Tim Hazelwood drew the meeting’s attention to Church guidelines for funerals of priests who had been stood down from ministry following an allegation of abuse. Such men were frequently left “in limbo,” he said, and some died in that state before a finding was arrived at concerning the allegation(s).

    And now sticking up for abusers... they're not well versed in PR are they? Maybe Diarmuid could give them some advice.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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