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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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    #3812
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    These people are going to get paid a lot of money any which way. But, at least, the LUAS is no longer only at St. Stephen's Green, as it was the last time a group of consultants were paid a lot of money to provide an assessment of the possible route. And they may also take into account, for example, the worker density maps for Dublin city centre this time; they don't appear to have been a factor the last time the experts stepped in.


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    #3813
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    These people are going to get paid a lot of money any which way. But, at least, the LUAS is no longer only at St. Stephen's Green, as it was the last time a group of consultants were paid a lot of money to provide an assessment of the possible route. And they may also take into account, for example, the worker density maps for Dublin city centre this time; they don't appear to have been a factor the last time the experts stepped in.

    Why would any of the above affect the outcome if as is your contention they'll be asked "is it possible to..." You're contradicting yourself


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    #3814
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Why would any of the above affect the outcome if as is your contention they'll be asked "is it possible to..." You're contradicting yourself

    I'm not following you here, at all, as my hope is that they'll be asked, as I said above (which you must have missed) "What is...", not "Is it possible...'

    I fail to see how I'm contradicting myself, but perhaps some context is required here, for your benefit.

    Back around the turn of the millennium, when the country was starting to wallow in cash in the early days of the Celtic Tiger, Ministers like Mary O'Rourke were obsessed with ass-covering, so consultants were called in at every turn - because lots of cash was there - to help them in decision-making.

    Mammy O'Rourke probably stands out as the consultant's poster-child in her time as Minister of Transport, because of her propensity to provide almost endless work to consultants, though there were indeed many other Ministers like her, with almost no decision being made without a consultant's say-so.

    The earlier consultancy job on the DART Underground, mentioned above, came under her remit and, of course, produced the desired result. They consultants were asked a simple question about a cross-city route, then they went away, produced a lot of mumbo-jumbo, said it could be done, and pocketed a lot of cash. Not bad.

    I'd hope these latest group of consultants will be asked to take a more objective view to earn their money.


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    #3815
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Perhaps it should be explained that "What is...?" has many possible answers, while "Is it...?" has just two: yes, or no.


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    #3816
    ringostare
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭ringostare


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    Perhaps it should be explained that "What is...?" has many possible answers, while "Is it...?" has just two: yes, or no.

    So, Herr Strassenwolf, do you tink if the question was different we might get a nice new route through the most dense and spiritual heart centre of Dublin that would save a lot of money e.g. under TCD with a station at College Green?


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    #3817
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    Perhaps it should be explained that "What is...?" has many possible answers, while "Is it...?" has just two: yes, or no.

    I'm aware of that the question is why you believe they'll be asked a "What is" this time around instead of a "Is it".


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    #3818
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    ringostare wrote: »
    So, Herr Strassenwolf, do you tink if the question was different we might get a nice new route through the most dense and spiritual heart centre of Dublin that would save a lot of money e.g. under TCD with a station at College Green?

    Indeed, I think we might, Ringo, and it could become yet more likely as the city edges towards pedestrianisation of College Green.

    I've always been a big fan of the way that many pedestrianised areas in continental Europe retain a serious public transport function through the presence of underground rail - Munich's Marienplatz is an excellent example.

    There's nowhere in Dublin which plays a bigger public transport role than College Green, and the pain of removing the buses from there could be reduced by replacing their public transport role in that area with underground rail. A difficult changeover period, to be sure, but long-term a good idea.
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I'm aware of that the question is why you believe they'll be asked a "What is" this time around instead of a "Is it".

    I may of course be very wrong here but I think the tameness with which the earlier route's planning permission was allowed to drop perhaps indicates that there is no certainty that it was the right route. I would hope that the naivete shown by the 'Is it possible to do this' question posed to the consultants in the early part of this century, for which they earned very easy money, will have given way to the realisation that most things are possible, and the question should now be: 'what's the best way to do this?'


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    #3819
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21



    MOD: In light of the fact that the DART Underground tunnel is part of a wider project entitled DART Expansion, I am going to rename the thread to reflect that. Even more relevant is the fact that between now and 2021, the only planned element of this DART Expansion project is the extension of the DART service to Balbriggan.


    Here's the latest on the DART Expansion to Balbriggan
    The National Transport Authority's (NTA) 'Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area 2016-2035', which was approved and published in 2016, proposes implementation of the DART Expansion Programme which will provide DART services as far north as Drogheda, to Hazelhatch on the Kildare Line and to Maynooth in the west and to the M3 Parkway.

    As required under the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, the NTA is now drawing up an integrated implementation plan to outline how they will go about delivering upon the Strategy's objectives for the period 2017-2022.

    Funding for some elements of the DART Expansion Programme is included in the Government's Capital Plan including funding for the extension of the DART to Balbriggan on the Northern line.

    The NTA in collaboration with Irish Rail has commenced work on the pre-planning stages of the DART Expansion Programme. A project team has been established and will develop a programme of work that can be delivered on an incremental basis in line with available funding.

    Subject to availability of funding and approval of the detailed business case for the project, it is envisaged that the extension of the DART to Balbriggan would commence in 2020.


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    #3820
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    If nothing else that's a positive step anyway. Balbriggan and environs are substantial areas of new construction and having a DART out there will be a big improvement. It's a shame there isn't more urgency though.


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    #3821
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    MJohnston wrote: »
    If nothing else that's a positive step anyway. Balbriggan and environs are substantial areas of new construction and having a DART out there will be a big improvement. It's a shame there isn't more urgency though.
    How would it even be a big improvement? There's no turn back facilities, Irish rail decided to close the Mosney passing loop outside Balbriggan and what happens to the significant number of services going to Drogheda?


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    #3822
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    lucernarian wrote: »
    How would it even be a big improvement? There's no turn back facilities, Irish rail decided to close the Mosney passing loop outside Balbriggan and what happens to the significant number of services going to Drogheda?

    What? Is this supposed to be directed at my post?


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    #3823
    roddney
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭roddney


    Occurred to me today while walking through IFSC and Grand Canal Dock area, how out of date Dart Underground Route is, based on current developments under construction.

    Grand Canal area (between Liffey and Grand Canal Basin) is not actually that well served. Same for Southern End of IFSC. Yes Luas runs there, but not train.

    Capital One, is biggest development in city.

    Would make sense to route Dart Underground more south. From Docklands to Grand Canal Dock, with an extra stop near to Grand Canal Square.


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    #3824
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    roddney wrote: »
    Occurred to me today while walking through IFSC and Grand Canal Dock area, how out of date Dart Underground Route is, based on current developments under construction.

    Grand Canal area (between Liffey and Grand Canal Basin) is not actually that well served. Same for Southern End of IFSC. Yes Luas runs there, but not train.

    Capital One, is biggest development in city.

    Would make sense to route Dart Underground more south. From Docklands to Grand Canal Dock, with an extra stop near to Grand Canal Square.
    I'm currently only living 4 months of the year in Dublin due to work and I've moved to a hot-desk type situation down in SJR Quay for those 4 months. Nothing strikes me as much as working there to find the transport system in Dublin so disjointed and weird.

    I wouldn't say that the Luas serves that area well at all. I was thinking about getting rid of my car when I knew I was leaving, but I'm glad I didn't because I end up driving in most days unless the weather is nice!


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    #3825
    roddney
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭roddney


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I wouldn't say that the Luas serves that area well at all.

    I 100% agree. Was trying to convey that, albeit badly :)


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    #3826
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,603 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    roddney wrote: »
    Occurred to me today while walking through IFSC and Grand Canal Dock area, how out of date Dart Underground Route is, based on current developments under construction.

    Grand Canal area (between Liffey and Grand Canal Basin) is not actually that well served. Same for Southern End of IFSC. Yes Luas runs there, but not train.

    Capital One, is biggest development in city.

    Would make sense to route Dart Underground more south. From Docklands to Grand Canal Dock, with an extra stop near to Grand Canal Square.
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I'm currently only living 4 months of the year in Dublin due to work and I've moved to a hot-desk type situation down in SJR Quay for those 4 months. Nothing strikes me as much as working there to find the transport system in Dublin so disjointed and weird.

    I wouldn't say that the Luas serves that area well at all. I was thinking about getting rid of my car when I knew I was leaving, but I'm glad I didn't because I end up driving in most days unless the weather is nice!

    Bear in mind that there is another footbridge planned to be built across the Liffey, which would connect the Sir John Rogerson's Quay directly with the Docklands Station on DART Underground.

    The new public transport bridge across the mouth of the Dodder will also facilitate an improved bus service through the area.

    Also regarding the current transport situation, the 15a/15b bus routes normally terminate just off Sir John Rogerson's Quay. Due to the ongoing construction works they have had to be diverted to Pearse Street and Ringsend Garage. These would normally offer a minimum daytime combined frequency of a bus every 10 minutes to that area.


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    #3827
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,851 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Drogheda seems a long way out to run a Dart-type service, where's the benefit in extending it that far (for one thing the DART units are slower than the Diesel trains over longer distances).


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    #3828
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,925 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    There's the clear environmental benefit for one. And then the fact that there will be increased frequency of services and reduction in cost for commuters. That's the benefit.

    Be nice when it gets out to Wicklow, Naas and Maynooth one day.


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    #3829
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,851 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    There's the clear environmental benefit for one. And then the fact that there will be increased frequency of services and reduction in cost for commuters. That's the benefit.

    Be nice when it gets out to Wicklow, Naas and Maynooth one day.

    why not run it to Cork and Belfast then? There's a point where you need longer distance style trains, whether they're electric or diesel. They could run diesel services every 10 minutes if they were so minded. If I were a Drogheda commuter I'd rather have a faster, more comfortable train, stopping less often. Sitting on a 8500 class Dart from Drogheda to Pearse with my knees jammed up against the person opposite stopping at every station along the way is a pretty hellish idea.


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    #3830
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The problem with the Dart is the fact that for most of the day, Dart trains are less than 25% full. They run either 8 coach or 6 coach sets, but still fail to fill even two coaches worth for most journeys. If they ran four coach sets, which they could, there is a capacity problem between 8 am and 9:30 am and between 4 pm and 7 pm.

    This can be overcome by either running more trains or by changing the length of the train in transit (with passengers aboard).

    The Dart takes about an hour to get from one end of the line to the other, or two hours for a round trip. This is a problem because this means that nearly all Dart trains must be maximum capacity as trains have to go from Bray to Howth/Malahide and back which takes over two hours and currently cannot be altered in length during transit.

    The pinch point of the loop line into Connolly exacerbates the problem as it cannot cope with current traffic levels, never mind extra trains.

    It costs a lot to run empty trains. What can be done?


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    #3831
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,925 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    loyatemu wrote: »
    why not run it to Cork and Belfast then? There's a point where you need longer distance style trains, whether they're electric or diesel. They could run diesel services every 10 minutes if they were so minded. If I were a Drogheda commuter I'd rather have a faster, more comfortable train, stopping less often. Sitting on a 8500 class Dart from Drogheda to Pearse with my knees jammed up against the person opposite stopping at every station along the way is a pretty hellish idea.


    Don’t get me wrong there is a clear preference for a more comfortable train for such a commute. Sure when I worked in Dun Laoghaire I would often time my leaving of the office to coincide with a diesel unit rather than a DART if I could.
    But I would like to think that the rolling stock will be more than upgraded for this expansion and to take into account for the extra distances. You would like to think so surely?

    This could be the start of the complete electrification of the GDA rail service rather than just “DART” and leave the diesels for the InterCity routes.
    Any improvement in the system needs to be welcomed because we are starved in this country of decent rail.


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    #3832
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,925 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The problem with the Dart is the fact that for most of the day, Dart trains are less than 25% full. They run either 8 coach or 6 coach sets, but still fail to fill even two coaches worth for most journeys. If they ran four coach sets, which they could, there is a capacity problem between 8 am and 9:30 am and between 4 pm and 7 pm.

    This can be overcome by either running more trains or by changing the length of the train in transit (with passengers aboard).

    The Dart takes about an hour to get from one end of the line to the other, or two hours for a round trip. This is a problem because this means that nearly all Dart trains must be maximum capacity as trains have to go from Bray to Howth/Malahide and back which takes over two hours and currently cannot be altered in length during transit.

    The pinch point of the loop line into Connolly exacerbates the problem as it cannot cope with current traffic levels, never mind extra trains.

    It costs a lot to run empty trains. What can be done?


    Perhaps some sort of tunnel to increase capacity?


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    #3833
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Perhaps some sort of tunnel to increase capacity?

    You mean a tunnel from Docklands to Heuston, and another one from SSG to Swords? What a good idea, I wonder why no-one thought of that. :)

    I am talking about the existing Dart system, and how it is cobbled by the necessity for every Dart (well nearly every one) to go from one end to the other stopping at every station with eight coaches while carrying less that one carriage worth of passengers most of the time.


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    #3834
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,603 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    You mean a tunnel from Docklands to Heuston, and another one from SSG to Swords? What a good idea, I wonder why no-one thought of that. :)

    I am talking about the existing Dart system, and how it is cobbled by the necessity for every Dart (well nearly every one) to go from one end to the other stopping at every station with eight coaches while carrying less that one carriage worth of passengers most of the time.

    They can and do have limited numbers of set swaps at Connolly mid-journey but these require passengers to change trains, and they can also swap sets at Bray.

    These moves however require additional drivers to swap the sets in and out of Fairview and at Bray and drawing up the rosters becomes extremely complex in terms of set configuration, ensuring that trains become the right lengths again for the peak journeys when the longer trains are absolutely needed.

    One look at the Irish Rail twitter feed during the period when they did far more extensive set swaps would tell you that people got very frustrated by it.

    I suspect that the company have taken the view that it is easier and involves less passenger frustration to leave the trains at longer lengths.


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    #3835
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    lxflyer wrote: »
    They can and do have limited numbers of set swaps at Connolly mid-journey but these require passengers to change trains, and they can also swap sets at Bray.

    These moves however require additional drivers to swap the sets in and out of Fairview and at Bray and drawing up the rosters becomes extremely complex in terms of set configuration, ensuring that trains become the right lengths again for the peak journeys when the longer trains are absolutely needed.

    One look at the Irish Rail twitter feed during the period when they did far more extensive set swaps would tell you that people got very frustrated by it.

    I suspect that the company have taken the view that it is easier and involves less passenger frustration to leave the trains at longer lengths.

    I accept the point that it is easier for management to run long trains always (if they have enough of them). However, it costs €millions a year to do so.

    They tried swapping sets, but were running two car sets, which was just daft. Why not start by running four or eight car sets as both types can run in that configuration.

    It should be possible to split and join trains with passengers on board. They do it all the time in the UK and probably in every other country.

    Also running the Howth to Howth Junction as a shuttle outside busy times would make a lot of sense.


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    #3836
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,603 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I accept the point that it is easier for management to run long trains always (if they have enough of them). However, it costs €millions a year to do so.

    They tried swapping sets, but were running two car sets, which was just daft. Why not start by running four or eight car sets as both types can run in that configuration.

    It should be possible to split and join trains with passengers on board. They do it all the time in the UK and probably in every other country.

    Also running the Howth to Howth Junction as a shuttle outside busy times would make a lot of sense.

    Unless you have access to internal figures, I don't think you can say with any certainty that it is costing "millions" to run the trains at the longer lengths. Neither of us know what the precise costs are.

    What I can say is that splitting and swapping is a significantly more complex process as you still have to ensure that trains end up where they need to be to allow trains be the longer length when they need to be in the afternoons to cover schools traffic and the evening peak, and then for the next morning. That is always going to involve having sets running at a longer length at times when it does not appear necessary.

    With regard to splitting trains in service - that is normally done where the train is going to multiple destinations on longer train routes. It is not common on suburban metro operations other than at terminals, due to the extra time required to carry out the split. Again the extra drivers needed to move the stock will be an added complexity.

    The layout at Malahide imposes significant restraints on operational flexibility. Operaing all DARTs to/from Malahide with a Howth shuttle is simply not possible as the sidings at Malahide require a reversal to be accessed. As a result one line is blocked while DARTs turn around. Plans by Irish Rail to build a siding north of the station that trains could directly move into were blocked by local residents.


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    #3837
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    As a result one line is blocked while DARTs turn around. Plans by Irish Rail to build a siding north of the station that trains could directly move into were blocked by local residents.
    how were they blocked by local residents? who has the final say? local residents or planning?


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    #3838
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,603 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    how were they blocked by local residents? who has the final say? local residents or planning?

    I cannot recall the exact detail but the objections were significant in number - this going back to the 1990s.

    Whether it went to formal planning stage I don't know, but what I do know is that the plans were shelved as a result of local opposition.


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    #3839
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    cannot recall the exact detail but the objections were significant in number - this going back to the 1990s.

    Whether it went to formal planning stage I don't know, but what I do know is that the plans were shelved as a result of local opposition.

    I would expect locals to complain if a wall was to be pained white instead of black! You will get plenty of idiots objecting to the sake of it or for something to keep them busy. This is a fact. Its up to the planners to make the correct decision...


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    #3840
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,603 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I would expect locals to complain if a wall was to be pained white instead of black! You will get plenty of idiots objecting to the sake of it or for something to keep them busy. This is a fact. Its up to the planners to make the correct decision...

    It's a moot point at this stage.

    The fact remains that the track layout at Malahide is exceptionally restrictive with regard to operations and as a result there is no way that all DARTs can go to Malahide with a shuttle on the Howth branch - the 50/50 split off-peak (and less to Malahide at peak) is a fact of life in order to fit in the Northern line and Enterprise services.


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    #3841
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Unless you have access to internal figures, I don't think you can say with any certainty that it is costing "millions" to run the trains at the longer lengths. Neither of us know what the precise costs are.

    I do not have access to any EI figures beyond their published timetable.

    However, I remember someone quoting €8 per KM per coach for electric trains. Now it is about 40 km from Greystones to Malahide, so a 4 coach train will cost €1,280 to go there and the same back. Let us call it €2,500 for the round trip.

    If 10 such journeys were saved each day by running 4 car sets instead of 8 car trains, that amounts to €10 million per year. That is by just saving 10 out of 70 return trips per day. With 10 minute Darts, there are over 100 return trips.

    Now, my assumption of €8 per km might be out, but I would think it is not out by a huge factor either way. So, a saving of 'millions' is not completely out.


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