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Ongoing religious scandals
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The point is, the state can shut down the current scheme (Caranua) at any time, and say to people you must go and sue the religious order/RCC/ and/or their insurers, instead. The church indemnity no longer applies at this stage. It seems the political will for any such action is lacking though.0
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What do you think lacks clarity? Which of the schemes you're talking about isn't covered by 'any determination of a Court, or Court award or settlement in respect of any action arising out of the same circumstances as gave rise to an application to the Redress Board', but does include the eighteen Congregations as specified in the indemnity?
I'm not saying the indemnity was never extended voluntarily by the state party. Just that it isn't clear whether it was, and if so, why.100% of the money disbursed by Caranua comes from the Congregations; the very purpose of Caranua is to disburse funds pledged by the Congregations, not the government.cash contributions of up to €110m pledged by the religious CongregationsThey've handed over €85m of that so far by the way, and Caranua has spent €41m of it.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »The State can't abandon the redress scheme without recreating the problem that the redress scheme was supposed to solve.
1. Make it easier for the victims and their lawyers to get hold of the money.
2. Prevent the awful spectre of bankruptcy/financial ruin for RC institutions from becoming a reality.0 -
It looks to me like an application for compensation would have to be made during the original 3 year period, to the original Redress Board, if it was to be covered by the original indemnity.
I'm not saying the indemnity was never extended voluntarily by the state party. Just that it isn't clear whether it was, and if so, why.Thats the impression you get from reading the website alright.But we know that far more has already been spent by the Redress Schemes than was ever received (or even pledged) by the religious orders.The annual reports of Caranua keep repeating the mantra about the...cash contributions of up to €110m pledged by the religious Congregations But only the accounts of 2013 are published, and the start-up money seems to have come from the NTMA (the exchequer) and VEC.Falls a bit short of the €1.5 Billion estimated cost though, doesn't it? I think that's less than 5% of it.0 -
There were two problems that it solved. It was originally designed to;
1. Make it easier for the victims and their lawyers to get hold of the money.
2. Prevent the awful spectre of bankruptcy/financial ruin for RC institutions from becoming a reality.0 -
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Peregrinus wrote: »..the consequence of bankruptcy is that creditors don't get their money...
Following bankruptcy, the state could have stepped in with its exchequer funded Redress scheme.0 -
Why? The document you linked clearly shows that the indemnity period is extended along with the statutory period, and you've shown that statutory period being extended more than once.
As Peregrinus has pointed out, this is probably more due to the state wanting to provide for vulnerable people who have been wronged, than to a desire to protect the financial interests of the mother church at taxpayers expense.
Nevertheless, I think there is also an element of the latter.
Also it should be borne in mind that the state was in cahoots with the RCC in facilitating and operating that whole industrial schools system of yesteryear. Hence the state does have a share of the liability.
But in fairness, I don't see how it could reasonably be said that the state's liability could ever exceed 50%, seeing as it was only acting at arms length.0 -
My point is that there was no contractual necessity for the state to keep extending the statutary period and hence the indemnity. The fact that the state volunteered to keep the scheme going, and keeps paying out money, means that de facto an indemnity is still being provided. That would be the situation even without any kind of contract.As Peregrinus has pointed out, this is probably more due to the state wanting to provide for vulnerable people who have been wronged, than to a desire to protect the financial interests of the mother church at taxpayers expense.
Nevertheless, I think there is also an element of the latter.Also it should be borne in mind that the state was in cahoots with the RCC in facilitating and operating that whole industrial schools system of yesteryear. Hence the state does have a share of the liability.But in fairness, I don't see how it could reasonably be said that the state's liability could ever exceed 50%, seeing as it was only acting at arms length.0 -
.. industrial schools were established under British rule, and in their day the combination of voluntary effort and private management, with State regulation and support were considered successful. That the Irish State continued to regulate and support the remaining schools is hardly surprising1924 The new state’s Department of Education noted that there were more children in industrial schools in the Irish Free State than in all of the United Kingdom.
1929 The Children’s Act was amended to allow destitute children to be sent to industrial schools, even if they hadn’t committed a crime.
1933 The statutory regulations governing industrial schools were updated and funding was increased.
1933 The Commission of Inquiry Into Widows’ and Orphans’ Pensions found only 350 of the children in industrial schools were orphans (5.3 % of the total)
1933 Industrial schools were abolished in the UK but not in Ireland.In fairness, you may be deliberately conflating different things here again; it can be reasonably said that the State entered a legal agreement making it liable for all claims of abuse in specified facilities over the €128 million provided by the Congregations. That liability manifestly extends to far far more than 50% of the cost, because of the agreement the State made.
The other question is whether the state could sue the religious for reimbursement of some portion of the Redress money, post 2005. You're saying no, the legal indemnity carried forward each time. I'm saying I don't know. The option was there each time to make it clear in the legislation whether the legal indemnity was being carried forward, or only the compensation scheme was. Anyway its a moot point; if the state wishes to continue paying the lions share, it can, whether or not it is obliged to.0 -
As Peregrinus has pointed out, this is probably more due to the state wanting to provide for vulnerable people who have been wronged, than to a desire to protect the financial interests of the mother church at taxpayers expense.
Nevertheless, I think there is also an element of the latter.
Also it should be borne in mind that the state was in cahoots with the RCC in facilitating and operating that whole industrial schools system of yesteryear. Hence the state does have a share of the liability.
But in fairness, I don't see how it could reasonably be said that the state's liability could ever exceed 50%, seeing as it was only acting at arms length.
As between the two defendants, they can agree among themselves how the cost is to be shared, and if they can't agree they can head off to court and get the court to rule on it, but this doesn't affect the victim. Even if the court rules that liability is shared 50/50 (or in any other proportions), the victim can still recover 100% of his judgment from the State, and it's then up to the State to try to recover the appropriate proportion from the religious institution. Which is pointless, of course, if the religious institution is insolvent.0 -
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Its true they were established under British Law, but they were a 19th century solution to a particular problem. They were phased out in Britain during the early 20th century, but in Ireland the fledgling state was under the influence of the RCC and so they were actually expanded upon instead of being closed. The state has some level of liability because of this collusion.I'm saying that its liability because of the original agreement only lasted for 3 years. Since then the agreement has been irrelevant. The state chose to keep paying out since then, so the religious orders didn't have to. In effect the state continues to indemnify the religious orders for as long as it keeps paying out, but this is not because the state was somehow "trapped" into a bad contract in 2002, which bound it until the end of time.The other question is whether the state could sue the religious for reimbursement of some portion of the Redress money, post 2005. You're saying no, the legal indemnity carried forward each time. I'm saying I don't know. The option was there each time to make it clear in the legislation whether the legal indemnity was being carried forward, or only the compensation scheme was. Anyway its a moot point; if the state wishes to continue paying the lions share, it can, whether or not it is obliged to.0
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Peregrinus wrote: »the victim can still recover 100% of his judgment from the State, and it's then up to the State to try to recover the appropriate proportion from the religious institution. Which is pointless, of course, if the religious institution is insolvent.
Leaving it with little or nothing to call its own.0 -
And which insolvency would arise because the institution had given a small portion of its assets to the state, and pooled most of its assets into a Trust where they were inextricably merged with the assets of other institutions. Leaving it with little or nothing to call its own.0
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And which insolvency would arise because the institution had given a small portion of its assets to the state, and pooled most of its assets into a Trust where they were inextricably merged with the assets of other institutions.
Leaving it with little or nothing to call its own.0 -
There is no great political will to seize these assets anyway. Put a few extra obstacles in the way, by transferring assets into Trust X or Y, and that ensures the state will not even try to seize them. It will never happen.
Public perception is everything. People think that the religious orders who ran the Christian Brothers schools and the Magdalene laundries are virtually gone now, and that there are only a few elderly brothers or nuns left, with just enough money to provide for their own healthcare until the end of their days. And this may be technically correct, but the bulk of their former assets are now controlled by trusts whose mandate is to continue their ethos.
In the case of schools, ownership of those title deeds is a vital leveraging tool, because it allows the trusts to draw ongoing state funding for the running costs, while maintaining their preferred "ethos".0 -
There is no great political will to seize these assets anyway. Put a few extra obstacles in the way, by transferring assets into Trust X or Y, and that ensures the state will not even try to seize them. It will never happen.Public perception is everything. People think that the religious orders who ran the Christian Brothers schools and the Magdalene laundries are virtually gone now, and that there are only a few elderly brothers or nuns left, with just enough money to provide for their own healthcare until the end of their days. And this may be technically correct, but the bulk of their former assets are now controlled by trusts whose mandate is to continue their ethos.In the case of schools, ownership of those title deeds is a vital leveraging tool, because it allows the trusts to draw ongoing state funding for the running costs, while maintaining their preferred "ethos".0
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There is no great political will to seize these assets anyway. Put a few extra obstacles in the way, by transferring assets into Trust X or Y, and that ensures the state will not even try to seize them. It will never happen.
Nobody's trying to seize the assets, Rec. There is no legal basis for doing so. It would be a crime. Even the dumbest populist politician can see how this would play out. The transfer of assets into trusts doesn't protect them from a seizure with which they are not threatened in the first place, and it's conspiracy-theory level thinking to think that the transfer is in any way motivated by a desire to avoid seizure. There are rational, coherent, evidence-based explanations for the transfers of assets into trusts. You've heard them before.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »This reminds me of the Simpson's episode in which Lisa tries to illustrate the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy by pointing out to her father that "By your logic, I could claim this rock keeps tigers away". Homer promptly offers to buy the rock.
Nobody's trying to seize the assets, Rec. There is no legal basis for doing so. It would be a crime.
Also there may be the possibility of the state putting a lien on the properties. I don't claim to know all the legal remedies. I am agnostic on that point, but not totally ignorant.
Now, you're saying the assets being moved into legal trusts at the time the abuse came to light was just a Simpson-esque coinkydinks. Maybe so.
Lets look at the timeline again;
1. Ryan Commission set up in 1999.
Various scandals drip-fed and leaked to the media over the following years.
2. Redress board set up in 2002.
It gradually became apparent that the church and/or the state was facing a massive Redress bill, much larger than was thought at first.
3. 2008; Christian Brothers and various other orders directly involved in the abuse shift their principle assets into the Rice trust in 2008. Where the assets are combined and effectively laundered so that the individual religious orders themselves can claim to be virtually penniless.
4. Ryan Commission releases its full report in 2009.
Hmmm...was all that legal maneuvering really just a coinkydinks?
Now, remember the Louise O'Keeffe case. She attempted to sue both the state and the Christian Brothers for the abuse she received. As it was a school and not a residential institution, the Redress scheme did not apply to her. Even so, the principles involved are the same.
She was denied justice in Ireland. The state asked the High Court to rule that the state party was not "vicariously liable", which the court did. But later that was overruled by a European Court ruling to the contrary.
Then you have somebody like Justice Kelly here as the govt. appointed President of the High Court. And also, by amazing coinkydinks, he happened to be the Chairman of the Edmund Rice Trust, which protects the former Christian Brothers assets.
So its this tangled web of collusion between the state, the church, and a govt. appointed judiciary which is at the heart of the problem. We don't have a proper Separation of Powers between the executive arm of the state (govt.) and the judiciary. Nor do we have a proper separation between church and state, as can be evidenced by the former and current involvement of the state in funding religious schools and institutions.
Both of these separations are considered by many to be vital to the correct functioning of a modern enlightened republic.
That's why there is a lack of political will by the state to tackle the church. Its the multiple conflicts and overlapping of interests. Its not the "legal difficulties" thrown up by supposedly bulletproof indemnities and/or legal trusts.0 -
The existence of CAB shows that the state can seize the proceeds of criminal activity, and the abuse was carried out during a time when the residential institutions were being paid by the state to care for the victims. Hence that money was acquired under false pretenses, while criminal abuse was going on. Also there may be the possibility of the state putting a lien on the properties. I don't claim to know all the legal remedies. I am agnostic on that point, but not totally ignorant.Now, you're saying the assets being moved into legal trusts at the time the abuse came to light was just a Simpson-esque coinkydinks. Maybe so.
Lets look at the timeline again;
1. Ryan Commission set up in 1999.
Various scandals drip-fed and leaked to the media over the following years.
2. Redress board set up in 2002.
It gradually became apparent that the church and/or the state was facing a massive Redress bill, much larger than was thought at first.
3. 2008; Christian Brothers and various other orders directly involved in the abuse shift their principle assets into the Rice trust in 2008. Where the assets are combined and effectively laundered so that the individual religious orders themselves can claim to be virtually penniless.
4. Ryan Commission releases its full report in 2009.
Hmmm...was all that legal maneuvering really just a coinkydinks?Now, remember the Louise O'Keeffe case. She attempted to sue both the state and the Christian Brothers for the abuse she received. As it was a school and not a residential institution, the Redress scheme did not apply to her. Even so, the principles involved are the same. She was denied justice in Ireland. The state asked the High Court to rule that the state party was not "vicariously liable", which the court did. But later that was overruled by a European Court ruling to the contrary.
And wasn't that one busted in the exact same post?Then you have somebody like Justice Kelly here as the govt. appointed President of the High Court. And also, by amazing coinkydinks, he happened to be the Chairman of the Edmund Rice Trust, which protects the former Christian Brothers assets.So its this tangled web of collusion between the state, the church, and a govt. appointed judiciary which is at the heart of the problem. We don't have a proper Separation of Powers between the executive arm of the state (govt.) and the judiciary. Nor do we have a proper separation between church and state, as can be evidenced by the former and current involvement of the state in funding religious schools and institutions. Both of these separations are considered by many to be vital to the correct functioning of a modern enlightened republic.That's why there is a lack of political will by the state to tackle the church. Its the multiple conflicts and overlapping of interests. Its not the "legal difficulties" thrown up by supposedly bulletproof indemnities and/or legal trusts.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 26390
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/10/17/the-known-unknown/Your readers might be interested in this podcast around sexual abuse published today by Irish History Podcast. It’s not easy listening, but in the context of what it explore and uncovers, it’s necessary listening.
It includes information on how conservative Catholic activists acted in the 1980s to shut down Department of Education research into the nature and scale of abuse experienced by school kids in the family home.
From 8.33min in… “In 1981, the Department of Education surveyed school children and the results revealed child sexual abuse to be a considerable problem. However, in January 1982, Christina Bhean Ui Chribin and Una Bhean Ui Mhathuna took court action to prevent the department conducting further surveys. These women, deeply conservative catholic activists, reflected a view held by many in Irish society that the safest place for children was in the traditional family home.”
Listen here http://irishhistorypodcast.ie/raftery/0 -
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Not disputing the accuracy of the podcast, but the podast (as quoted) leaves out the most salient information; what was the outcome of the court action that was taken?
Does anyone know? Does anyone have more detail on this particular court case?0 -
Join Date:Posts: 26390
More info about one of the people who took the case https://comeheretome.com/2012/07/29/una-bean-mhic-mhathuna-40-years-of-reactionary-politics/0 -
Thanks for that Cabaal. Relevantly to the claim made in the broadcast, the report does say that Mhic Mathuna and Cribben were refused the High Court injunction that they sought to restrain the Dept of Ed investigations. Which is not to say that the mere fact that they took proceedings might not have had a somewhat chilling effect on the Dept of Ed, but that's not what the podcast appears to say.0
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In Rome, Australian police have interviewed Cardinal Pell, Pope Frank's head of finance, "regarding allegations of sexual assault”. Pell has denied the allegations and suggested that there is a conspiracy against him.
http://www.thejournal.ie/cardinal-george-pel-3046333-Oct2016/
Pell was the guy who famously said that the RCC had "mucked up" in how the RCC dealt with pedophile priests. He also appeared on Australian telly where he made a most peculiar admission, and Dawkins produced what must have been his widest-ever grin:
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http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/ex-church-of-ireland-volunteer-jailed-for-sex-assaults-on-boys-1.2862790Ex-Church of Ireland volunteer jailed for sex assaults on boys
A former lay worker with the Church of Ireland has been jailed for 13 years for raping and molesting 14 boys over 40 years.
Patrick O’Brien (76) pleaded guilty at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court to 48 sample counts of indecent assault and three counts of sexual assault between 1974 and 2013. The abuse occurred at many locations throughout the State, including on a boat at Loughrea, Co Galway, and at St Patrick’s Cathedral in Dublin, where he worked as a volunteer.Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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Paedo; "I'd like to work with the kids. I'll hang out with them, take them on camping trips, that sort of stuff. I don't require any money."
Church; "No money you say. Hmmm... OK you're hired."0 -
Isn't that the entire basis of the scouting movement?0
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Peregrinus wrote: »Isn't that the entire basis of the scouting movement?0
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Yes.
No offence, rec, but your post suggests that, if there was a financial motive involved, somebody's desire to work with kids would somehow be purified. But if there's no financial motive, then it's suspect.
That strikes me as a very unhealthy basis on which to build the protection of kids. Just sayin'.0
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