Electrical plugs (Split from National Postcodes to be introduced)

Impetus wrote: »

*Except in the obsolete 50 year old legacy system used by Royal Mail.

I don't understand why some people believe that the UK postcode system is obsolete as it is in constant use and does what it was intended to do!

Yes, it's a legacy system just like 230v 50hz is the legacy voltage in houses, but it does the job it was intended to do even if there are better* ways to do it now.

*depends of your definition of better.

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't understand why some people believe that the UK postcode system is obsolete as it is in constant use and does what it was intended to do!

The British postcode system is obsolete because it was designed when computing power was expensive and in typical British fashion is totally at odds with the system used in the rest of Europe. Despite its complex structure its resolution is limited to pointing to about 25 buildings. Mail sorting and most forms of address usage are international quantities.

Postal sorting equipment sold over the past 10 years or more do not sort by postcode - because it is inaccurate in terms of recognition accuracy and typos. If you enter AB23 4GU into a website or computer application based on the British system you will still have to enter the building number or house name, and sometimes even select the street. The British address structure is long and very often does not fit in the address space used in most computer systems used in the rest of Europe or the US.

For every postal address one only needs

Building number STREET NAME
POSTCODE TOWN/CITY NAME

In a properly organised system that is enough to find an address. Anything more is gilding the lily.

The British has a similar non-standard problem with phone numbers way back. The area code was not published in the phone book - because each number's area code varied depending on where you were calling from. There was no national area code. In Ireland, area codes have always been standard and regionally grouped - eg 021 Cork City 022 Mallow 023 Bandon 024 Youghal 025 Fermoy etc. One of the English area codes for an area was usually based on the alpha numeric dial - eg Newcastle was 0NE2 (0632). This all had to be dumped.

It seems to me that the powers that be in Ireland and Britain are mentally deficient when it comes to organising things simply and effectively!
You will experience the same typos with the eircode system, because they constitute a meaningless complex jumble of alpha and numeric characters.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, it's a legacy system just like 230v 50hz is the legacy voltage in houses, but it does the job it was intended to do even if there are better* ways to do it now.

The British use 230 VAC 50Hz as a result of an EU directive. However they use 3 pin flat plugs that are totally different from those used in the rest of Europe. Result - the Brits have heavy clumpy mobile phone chargers to pack, and they need an adapter to charge their PC when travelling outside the country. A situation copied by another mal-administered colony next door!

Impetus wrote: »

I searched my mind before posting along those lines to point out something British that is good (in the interests of balance) in terms of infrastructure or systems. I am still waiting for inspiration. Perhaps it will occur in a dream tonight? :-)

How about the national (electricity) grid?

Deleted User wrote: »

How about the national (electricity) grid?

I don't know much about the GB.grid, aside from the fact that it is the least interconnected grid of any big country in Europe. Being an island is no excuse for that because the ideal location for HVDC cables is under water. No complaints about EMF or cities to bypass. Someone I know phoned me last month to announce that they were in a multi-day blackout they were experiencing in a city the size of Cork in GB. Luckily they had backup generators. Their ISP's national backbone was out the other day. Just as the company was updating their software from Windows Server 2003 and clients from XP to Win 7. (I did suggest to them to get a second ISP for their business some time ago....) No phones were working either.

Swissgrid.ch very often keeps Italy from blackout - selling them 2 or 3 GW. As I write this they are sending about 2GW to Germany as well as some power to Austria and Italy. See the real time map of Swissgrid at http://www.swissgrid.ch/swissgrid/en/home.html

MBSnr

Impetus wrote: »

The British use 230 VAC 50Hz as a result of an EU directive. However they use 3 pin flat plugs that are totally different from those used in the rest of Europe. Result - the Brits have heavy clumpy mobile phone chargers to pack, and they need an adapter to charge their PC when travelling outside the country. A situation copied by another mal-administered colony next door!

Heading off topic but.... I read that is more to do with electrical ring mains being 32A and not 16A as per the rest of mainland Europe. Therefore to protect the device's cable if a fault arised, a 13A fuse was required in the plug - hence it's bulky design. Ireland tends to adhere to the BS standards and you end up with the plug we have.

I understand the ring main wiring was done that way as there was a shortage of suitable copper wire after WW2.

MBSnr wrote: »

Heading off topic but.... I read that is more to do with electrical ring mains being 32A and not 16A as per the rest of mainland Europe. Therefore to protect the device's cable if a fault arised, a 13A fuse was required in the plug - hence it's bulky design. Ireland tends to adhere to the BS standards and you end up with the plug we have.

I understand the ring main wiring was done that way as there was a shortage of suitable copper wire after WW2.

Correct, and the only part that applied to an EU directive was the harmonisation of the voltage at 230v UK/IRL were 240v and mainland EU was 220v.

MBSnr wrote: »

Heading off topic but.... I read that is more to do with electrical ring mains being 32A and not 16A as per the rest of mainland Europe. Therefore to protect the device's cable if a fault arised, a 13A fuse was required in the plug - hence it's bulky design. Ireland tends to adhere to the BS standards and you end up with the plug we have.

I understand the ring main wiring was done that way as there was a shortage of suitable copper wire after WW2.

The trip switch / RCD is far faster and more sensitive than a fuse. The idea of having a fuse in a plug is obsolete. It is far safer to run a line from a trip switch to a device or group of sockets etc (than running a high amp cable all over the place).

Yet another case of Ireland (and GB) re-inventing the wheel, and getting it wrong in terms of best practice.

MBSnr

Impetus wrote: »

The trip switch / RCD is far faster and more sensitive than a fuse. The idea of having a fuse in a plug is obsolete. It is far safer to run a line from a trip switch to a device or group of sockets etc (than running a high amp cable all over the place).

Yet another case of Ireland (and GB) re-inventing the wheel, and getting it wrong in terms of best practice.

The need for a fused plug predates most domestic RCD installations..... The design of the plug had already been standardised. Did you expect them to bring out another design after RCD common usage? What about the thousands of houses without RCDs? Should they continue to use a different plug? Your argument about re-inventing the wheel is not valid here.

Deleted User wrote: »

Correct, and the only part that applied to an EU directive was the harmonisation of the voltage at 230v UK/IRL were 240v and mainland EU was 220v.

No. Ireland had 230V while using the 13A plug.

In fact Ireland used the German (Siemans) system since the foundation of the ESB in 1927 when Siemens built Ardnacrusha, (as no-one else would). The German screw in main fuses and 15A plugs were installed - one fuse, one plug. Of course, houses only had about 2 or 3 plugs.

In the 1960s, grey imports of UK electrical stuff started getting installed in houses and British standards were installed as an option. [Mainly driven by availability and cost]. And so we had German fuse boards, and UK ring mains and plugs which gave rise to problems as the German fuses did not come in 30 amp, and so 25 amp fuses were used. Eventually the UK standards were adopted, but never the 240V.

Typical botch, just like trhe proposed postcode system. [Phew, back on topic!]:)

MBSnr wrote: »

The need for a fused plug predates most domestic RCD installations..... The design of the plug had already been standardised. Did you expect them to bring out another design after RCD common usage? What about the thousands of houses without RCDs? Should they continue to use a different plug? Your argument about re-inventing the wheel is not valid here.

In fact the ring main was designed after WW II originally using a design of plug which was a variation on the 5A plug (still used for switched lamps). The live pin was replaced by a pin that screwed in to replace the live pin with a 13A fuse. Quite a neat design as the fuse could be replaced without opening the plug, but heavy cords were too much for it, so it was redisigned to the current design.

Edit: Just remembered the name D&S. Dorman & Smith plugs and sockets

http://www.fam-oud.nl/~plugsocket/DormanSmith1.html

Continental practice varies (as does plug design) but the fused plug is seen as dangerous almost everywhere, as the fuse causes heating in the plug and can cause a fire, even when operating below its limit. [I have seen a plug in my house catch fire like this - probably a poor fuse connection at 13A].

So not re-inventing, but poor design. Again, just like the proposed postcode system.

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

In fact the ring main was designed after WW II originally using a design of plug which was a variation on the 5A plug (still used for switched lamps). The live pin was replaced by a pin that screwed in to replace the live pin with a 13A fuse. Quite a neat design as the fuse could be replaced without opening the plug, but heavy cords were too much for it, so it was redisigned to the current design.

And if used with a possibly vibrating device the fuse could work itself out of the socket and stay stuck in the live socket.

MYOB wrote: »

And if used with a possibly vibrating device the fuse could work itself out of the socket and stay stuck in the live socket.

This is relation to the D&S 13A plug. Sorry for the off topic.

Yes, probably. Also, another design flaw, when the fuse blows on the iron (13A), you take the one from the radio (5A) and blow that one too. It has hopeless flaws and that is why it is no longer used. It was patented in 1943 and sold to local authorities for council houses, the sockets being a loss leader (very cheap). The tennants had to buy the overpriced plugs and fuses.

The current design (MK) was introduced in 1947, and was developed since. However, it still suffers from heating in the plug under heavy loads. It should be limited to 10A.

Carawaystick

Impetus wrote: »

However they use 3 pin flat plugs that are totally different from those used in the rest of Europe. Result - the Brits have heavy clumpy mobile phone chargers to pack, and they need an adapter to charge their PC when travelling outside the country.

I've a phone charger that's actually smaller than an ordinary 3-pin plug, so i'ts not a heavy clumpy phone charger.
I also have a blackberry 2 pin charger, from the continent, which is about twice as heavy and 4-5 times the size of the charger I use here.

Most laptops need an adaptor to charge, and it's usually much bigger than the plug.
Certain laptops have the adaptor built into the plug and the pin arrangement can be changed depending on which part of the world you visit.

Apple are the masters of design. They have managed to get good design into what is a poor, clunky, (and chunky) MK design covered by BS1363.

My wife has a Nokia phone with a micro USB cable connector. The unit has a folding earth 'pin' (its plastic) that slides away. Very neat, but not as nice as Apple produce.

Europlug produce quite a nice adapter that can change a French style two-pin into a 13A plug.

murphaph

3 pin plugs hurt like f**k when you stand on an upturned one in your bare feet as well.

MBSnr wrote: »

The need for a fused plug predates most domestic RCD installations..... The design of the plug had already been standardised. Did you expect them to bring out another design after RCD common usage? What about the thousands of houses without RCDs? Should they continue to use a different plug? Your argument about re-inventing the wheel is not valid here.

Ireland should have remained with the CEE 7/4 (5) plug, as used in most other European countries - including: Albania, Austria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Chile, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Indonesia, Iran, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Republic of Macedonia, Republic of Moldova, the Netherlands, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Romania, Russia,[37] Serbia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, Ukraine, and Uruguay. My parents' house in Ireland was wired with them when I was a child. Then the BS1363 device arrived, compliments of the British dictatorship. These plugs overheat even with 13A 230VAC loads - I suspect because the socket is badly designed (flush), which required them to put insulation on the plug prongs after children started getting electrocuted from playing with the 3 pin flat plug. The current carrying capacity is just borderline in terms of amp carrying capacity as a result.

It was cheapo thinking, typical British save money, poor engineering to come up with this "system", just as trip switches were starting to spread. They ran a single 32A cable around the place instead of low amp wiring relevant to each socket or device. Trip switches were originally patented in 1879.

As a result, victims of BS1363 plugs have to carry around massive mobile phone chargers and PC power supplies when travelling, together with adapters. The BS1363 sockets look clumpy and ugly in a house or office - not unlike the plugs that go into them. It increases the cost of producing electrical goods for the Irish market (in the same way as producing right hand drive cars) because they all have to be fitted with a non-standard power connector. Ditto for facotry made furniture such as bathroom cabinets and kitchen cabinets made in Germany or France, which often incorporate 2 pin sockets - useless for most Irish sold appliances.

If there is a really dumb, non-standard, re-invent the wheel way of doing things, you can be sure the British will invent it, and the Irish will copy it like zombies.

Ireland continues to use this dangerous standard which involves sending high amp current around the average house, needlessly. There is no shortage of copper. Irish electricians are so brainwashed by the mafia behind the British system, that many are unwilling to wire a house to European standards. Which forces one to bring an electrician from Germany or France, together with the kit to be installed, if one wants the job to be done properly in one's property.

salmocab

Ireland continues to use this dangerous standard which involves sending high amp current around the average house, needlessly. There is no shortage of copper. Irish electricians are so brainwashed by the mafia behind the British system, that many are unwilling to wire a house to European standards. Which forces one to bring an electrician from Germany or France, together with the kit to be installed, if one wants the job to be done properly in one's property.[/QUOTE]

Can you explain the this bit? Not being smart, genuinely wondering how you think Irish electricians should be wiring a house and what you mean by using european standards

salmocab wrote: »

Can you explain the this bit? Not being smart, genuinely wondering how you think Irish electricians should be wiring a house and what you mean by using european standards

The typical continental model is to send a power feed, with as low amps as are required being fed at the other end, controlled by a circuit breaker/trip switch/RCD near the meter. Every socket or pair of sockets tends to have its own line back to the meter area in the rest of Europe.

In networking terms it might be called a star configuration. The British ring-main system copied in Ireland tends to use a high amp cable like a network wiring structure going from socket to socket. The fuse is far slower than a circuit breaker to turn the power off. With a working circuit breaker/RCD the fuse is wasted and time wasting.

It is not just in Europe. I recently bought some Daikin air conditioners made in Japan, and the wiring instructions was for each unit to be wired back to the trip switch - even they only consume about 700w.

Impetus wrote: »

Ireland should have remained with the CEE 7/4 (5) plug, as used in most other European countries - including: Albania, Austria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Chile, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Indonesia, Iran, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Republic of Macedonia, Republic of Moldova, the Netherlands, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Romania, Russia,[37] Serbia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, Ukraine, and Uruguay. My parents' house in Ireland was wired with them when I was a child. Then the BS1363 device arrived, compliments of the British dictatorship. These plugs overheat even with 13A 230VAC loads - I suspect because the socket is badly designed (flush), which required them to put insulation on the plug prongs after children started getting electrocuted from playing with the 3 pin flat plug. The current carrying capacity is just borderline in terms of amp carrying capacity as a result.

It was cheapo thinking, typical British save money, poor engineering to come up with this "system", just as trip switches were starting to spread. They ran a single 32A cable around the place instead of low amp wiring relevant to each socket or device. Trip switches were originally patented in 1879.

As a result, victims of BS1363 plugs have to carry around massive mobile phone chargers and PC power supplies when travelling, together with adapters. The BS1363 sockets look clumpy and ugly in a house or office - not unlike the plugs that go into them. It increases the cost of producing electrical goods for the Irish market (in the same way as producing right hand drive cars) because they all have to be fitted with a non-standard power connector. Ditto for facotry made furniture such as bathroom cabinets and kitchen cabinets made in Germany or France, which often incorporate 2 pin sockets - useless for most Irish sold appliances.

If there is a really dumb, non-standard, re-invent the wheel way of doing things, you can be sure the British will invent it, and the Irish will copy it like zombies.

Ireland continues to use this dangerous standard which involves sending high amp current around the average house, needlessly. There is no shortage of copper. Irish electricians are so brainwashed by the mafia behind the British system, that many are unwilling to wire a house to European standards. Which forces one to bring an electrician from Germany or France, together with the kit to be installed, if one wants the job to be done properly in one's property.

Sounds like another anti British rant, just like the one in the post codes thread. The overheating of the plugs is more down to wear or loose terminal screws (something that can affect all rewire-able plugs. Electricians are free to choose whether to use a ring or star type topology, but the BS sockets are the national standard and should be adhered to to avoid the hassle of fitting adaptors (increase risk of fire) changing plugs or sourcing electrical equipment abroad.

You are not allowed to wire your house as you see fit. You must stick to Irish standards (which are the same as the British ones - more or less) and failure to do so is likely to have ESB networks refuse to connect you (or disconnect you if they find out). You must now use a certified electrician (Irish) to do the work as the result of recent legislation.

In Switzerland, they tend to have a power socket incorporated in light switches (even in bathrooms). Quite a good idea since you have power there anyway.

So no two pin plugs allowed.

Sam Russell wrote: »

No. Ireland had 230V while using the 13A plug.

Ireland was 220V up until the mid 90s. The UK was 240V.

I remember reading a booklet from the the ESB (I recall that it had a yellow cover) which stated that devices designed for 240V may not work on a 220V supply and that you should get written confirmation from the reseller or manufacturer that the device would work on 220V.

All irrelevant now anyway!

Sam Russell wrote: »

You are not allowed to wire your house as you see fit. You must stick to Irish standards (which are the same as the British ones - more or less) and failure to do so is likely to have ESB networks refuse to connect you (or disconnect you if they find out). You must now use a certified electrician (Irish) to do the work as the result of recent legislation.

.......

So no two pin plugs allowed.

IRL = The brain dead three pin fuse in every plug dictatorship?

I am paying for it and it will be done to the best European standards. No dictatorship will stop me from applying the best standards. Why waste money wiring a house to obsolete standards which do not take account of the relative efficiency of a circuit breaker and RCD compared with a fuse? It is little different to Ireland requiring lead gasoline and 1950s style smog factory engines in modern vehicles.

I divide my time between various countries and have no intention of adapting interconnections, just because Ireland accidentally fell into a non-standard plug interface that is now obsolete.

L1011

Good luck getting the house connected to the network, you'll need it...

Deleted User wrote: »

Sounds like another anti British rant, just like the one in the post codes thread.

We are big into anti-British rant claims in this territory. I did say in the other thread that I was trying to think of an area where the British excel. It came to me the other day - "appearances". Royal family pageantry and similar. They do it like no other country.

The only problem is that these appearances can be used to pull the wool over peoples' eyes. Just because one can put on a world class display involving some royals accompanied with their army trooping down some boulevard does not mean that you are a good engineer. Unfortunately in Britain most intelligent engineers are working in financial jobs in London - instead of less lucrative jobs like electrical engineering, mechanical engineering etc. GB has paid a big price as a result, and Ireland is paying the price whenever it copies second rate solutions devised by second class minds who have been programmed to do everything possible to be different (which often means anti-European) for the sake of it.

And a big price will be paid for the second rate Eircode system being foisted on the country because it comes with all the defects of Britain's refusal to adhere to European/international standards combined with some really stupid Irish "icing" (in the form of the randomisation of the premises code) [moving back to the real root of this topic for a second]

MYOB wrote: »

Good luck getting the house connected to the network, you'll need it...

Perhaps I should take this as a threat?

Anyway it already has an electricity supply, and I would have no problem generating my own power if it came to it.

I grew up believing the Roy of the Rovers line that the Spitfire was a better aircraft than the Mesherschmit 109. The Spitfire was undergunned and carried only 90 seconds (iirc) worth of machine gun fire while the M109 carried cannon aswell as machine guns. On a negative G dive, the carbarettas in the Spit cut the engine and caused a serious lack of power, while the M109 injection system continued in all circumstances.

However, the Spit excelled over the M109 in that they built 10 times as many of them, and out bred them. No matter how many Spits were lost during during the Battle of Britain, they were restocked overnight. They ran out of pilots, but not aircraft.

One thing the British are good at is propaganda.

murphaph

In fairness to the three pin plug, at least when it's in the wall socket it is a good tight fit. Compare this to the sh!te ones they use in North America (and elsewhere) that hang out of the socket half the bloody time. That's really poor design. Their whole system is even worse than ours...120VAC 3-wire single phase. Messy setup.

I have to say, I do find the system here in Germany pretty good. I used to think the safety shutter on UK type sockets was an advantage but you can now get sockets here with a similar shutter design, negating that single advantage.

Sam Russell wrote: »

I grew up believing the Roy of the Rovers line that the Spitfire was a better aircraft than the Mesherschmit 109. The Spitfire was undergunned and carried only 90 seconds (iirc) worth of machine gun fire while the M109 carried cannon aswell as machine guns. On a negative G dive, the carbarettas in the Spit cut the engine and caused a serious lack of power, while the M109 injection system continued in all circumstances.

However, the Spit excelled over the M109 in that they built 10 times as many of them, and out bred them. No matter how many Spits were lost during during the Battle of Britain, they were restocked overnight. They ran out of pilots, but not aircraft.

One thing the British are good at is propaganda.

Propaganda is part of "appearances" in my books. Propaganda is generally composed of sound, video and pictures. Appearances includes these, as well as "the superior look of the place".

I have worked with numerous companies all over Europe, including Irish ones. I have come across a general ledger account entitled "Appearances" (as in an expense account devoted to spending on appearances) - except for one or two British companies. Presumably companies in other countries are more focused on specific expenditure like cleaning, painting and decorating, and similar....

Impetus wrote: »

Perhaps I should take this as a threat?

Anyway it already has an electricity supply, and I would have no problem generating my own power if it came to it.

@Impetus

You might find this a starting point.

http://www.etci.ie/docs/certguide112009.pdf

Standards are not just for you, but those that follow you. You could wire according to French or some other standards, but electricians coming to repair, extend, or service the installation at a later date may be put in danger if they do not recognise or understand the installation. It may be possible to use a version of the Irish code that matches the French system. For example use only spurs, not ring-mains, with a single circuit-breaker per plug. There could be requirements that cannot be matched.

However, you are now required to use certified electricians, as you are required to use certified gas installers for gas.