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How much do we respect a culture if it demeans others

steddyeddy

A member of our project team is from Sri Lanka and although he's a lovely guy he still puts a lot of faith in his country's caste system. He's a scientist and frankly I don't think he should believe in such nonsense. Especially if that belief is about perceived cultures.

A girl in the institute here is from Saudia Arabia and seems to think the segregation of women is justified based on an old book.

Now I'll be honest I think segregation and discrimination and BS and should be tackled in polite society. My colleagues and I had a debate on whether it's right to challenge a person's whole culture. I think it's right to do so if that aspect of their culture is based on hate or denigration. In other words I don't think culture should get a free pass. The Orange Order spread bigotry in northern Ireland and used the word culture as a some sort of defence. We shouldn't be afraid of insulting someone's culture if it means pointing out wrongdoing.

I don't think we should automatically challenge people on aspects of their culture. In fact I think that sort of behaviour belongs in the "warning signs someone's a tosser" thread.

The Sri Lankan dude moved to North India when he was a kid and during lab time he was talking about the caste system in a manner which led me to think he was looking for someone to challenge it. He said his father was a wealthy man (Indian) who used to walk on his servants (lower caste) in order to avoid walking on an animal that was on the floor (he was an animal lover apparently). The Sri Lankan dude when challenged was saying the caste system is part of his culture and it's not a matter of right or wrong just a different culture.

So basically this is where I was going when I started the thread. I don't want to call people out on things because they are from a different culture. I'm wondering to we have a right to criticise that culture if it has beliefs that demean another group of people or does it get a free pass because it is someone's culture?

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jackofalltrades

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well in the case of the caste system guy it did effect our team.

Do you mind me asking how?

suicide_circus

Let's call a spade a spade here. Much of this comes down to faith - the belief in the unproven and unknowable. Where faith manifests itself in the public sphere is where friction occurs: teaching intelligent design in schools, refusing to bake a gay cake, denying your child a blood transfusion etc.

As a very young religion, Scientology is conspicuous as an obvious and cynical fraud and is thus rightfully pilloried and admonished. Other more established religions have the weight and gravitas which only come with age and yet are no less unlikely, contradictory and cynical in their quest for power and control than Scientology.

Faith is not a virtue. Would we respect and accept a persons belief in any number of bizarre and counterintuitive rules were they not accompanied by a largely disproven and incoherent back story?

Freedom isn't free. It is hard faught and it has taken us aeons to drag ourselves to a place where our thoughts and actions need no longer be dictated by primal fears, smoke and mirrors and dubious texts promoted by sinister ideologues.

This is not a battle that will be won by the sword or the statute book. It will be won by example. By living a secular life marked by fairness, kindness and evidence based prudence.

biko

looksee wrote: »

Right on! And I know someone who believes that its ok to discriminate against children getting an education because they are not signed on to the majority religion. And a woman who believes that she should not be allowed to have any authority in her religion, because that is a man's role. I also know someone who thinks that religious beliefs should dictate decisions in medicine and politics. Its all a disgrace!!!

Are you talking about Mormons, Jews, Christians, Muslims or what?

Religion does not equal culture.

Jester252

Dose their culture affect you?

Drop it and don't create hostility in the team.

If you can't drop it due to personal morally. Just realize the damage that you'll cause to professional and personal relationships.
Also be aware that you will push away other people as no one wants to deal with your issues.

Speedwell

Jester252 wrote: »

Dose their culture affect you?

Drop it and don't create hostility in the team.

If you can't drop it due to personal morally. Just realize the damage that you'll cause to professional and personal relationships.
Also be aware that you will push away other people as no one wants to deal with your issues.

In the massive multinational oil resources group where I worked in IT (headquartered in the US), HR dictated equal treatment and it didn't matter what the hell culture you came from. When I was a trainer in Abu Dhabi, they fired a guy on the spot because he refused to attend a training class taught by a woman. Corporate culture > individual culture. If someone's not a team player and can't adhere to team values within a corporate values setting, or creates a hostile work environment through making his outdated, oppressive views uncomfortably obvious to the point where they clearly detract from the ability of the team to work together as professionals, he needs to find a different venue for his opinions. And any responsible company will be glad to facilitate that.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Jester252

Speedwell wrote: »

In the massive multinational oil resources group where I worked in IT (headquartered in the US), HR dictated equal treatment and it didn't matter what the hell culture you came from. When I was a trainer in Abu Dhabi, they fired a guy on the spot because he refused to attend a training class taught by a woman. Corporate culture > individual culture. If someone's not a team player and can't adhere to team values within a corporate values setting, or creates a hostile work environment through making his outdated, oppressive views uncomfortably obvious to the point where they clearly detract from the ability of the team to work together as professionals, he needs to find a different venue for his opinions. And any responsible company will be glad to facilitate that.

Company culture beats all. In the example you gave he created a hostile enviroment.

However the OP/company isn't affect by their culture, according to the opening post. OP has an issue with their culture on a personal level. If he challenge them, he is creating a hostile work enviroment.

It just something to keep in mind.

Wibbs

looksee wrote: »

Right on! And I know someone who believes that its ok to discriminate against children getting an education because they are not signed on to the majority religion. And a woman who believes that she should not be allowed to have any authority in her religion, because that is a man's role. I also know someone who thinks that religious beliefs should dictate decisions in medicine and politics. Its all a disgrace!!!

Wondered how long it would take before good oul Catholic Ireland and the lingering self hate from same would surface. It may just have escaped your attention that Ireland and her culture have made huge strides in the last generation away from that and Ireland is a very different place today compared with the Ireland of yesterday. Hell it's different than it was in the 80's.

Sure we most certainly have some ways to go, but we're going, but don't let that get in the way of the self hate and BS cultural relevance stuff that's parroted way too often. Though it really is getting damned tiresome at this stage.

One eyed Jack

Speedwell wrote: »

In the massive multinational oil resources group where I worked in IT (headquartered in the US), HR dictated equal treatment and it didn't matter what the hell culture you came from. When I was a trainer in Abu Dhabi, they fired a guy on the spot because he refused to attend a training class taught by a woman. Corporate culture > individual culture. If someone's not a team player and can't adhere to team values within a corporate values setting, or creates a hostile work environment through making his outdated, oppressive views uncomfortably obvious to the point where they clearly detract from the ability of the team to work together as professionals, he needs to find a different venue for his opinions. And any responsible company will be glad to facilitate that.

Wouldn't the same then go for any individual who assumed they had a right to enforce their cultural values on someone else who did not share their cultural values? I'm pretty sure the corporate culture would see that didn't happen either.

So in eddy's case above, he would need to go through the proper channels if he cannot work with someone on his team, rather than trying to blame them for his issues with them.

Watched a great film on the whole idea of culture clash last night, don't know how many here have seen it but I always watch it when it's on:

Crash is a 2004 ensemble drama film co-written, produced, and directed by Paul Haggis. The film is about racial and social tensions in Los Angeles, California. A self-described "passion piece" for Haggis, Crash was inspired by a real-life incident, in which his Porsche was carjacked outside a video store on Wilshire Boulevard in 1991.

Several characters' stories interweave during two days in Los Angeles: a black detective estranged from his mother; his criminal younger brother and gang associate; the white district attorney and his irritated, pampered wife; a racist white police officer who disgusts his more idealistic younger partner; an African American Hollywood director and his wife who must deal with the officer; a Persian-immigrant father who is wary of others; and a hard-working Hispanic family man, a locksmith. The film differs from many other films about racism in its rather impartial approach to the issue. Rather than separating the characters into victims and offenders, victims of racism are often shown to be prejudiced themselves in different contexts and situations. Also, racist remarks and actions are often shown to stem from ignorance and misconception rather than a malicious personality.

Crash (2004 film)

Perhaps eddy could claim he has uncontrollable flatulence

The next day, at the Los Angeles Police Department station, Hansen talks to his superior, Lt. Dixon (Keith David), about switching partners. Dixon, a black man, claims that Hansen's charge of Ryan as a racist could cost both Hansen and Dixon their jobs. Dixon suggests a transfer to a one-man car and mockingly tells Hansen that he should justify it by claiming to have uncontrollable flatulence.

wokingvoter

suicide_circus wrote: »

Why not?

I can believe that the moon is made of cream cheese and that unicorns charge across the plains of Africa if I like.
The fact that its not true doesn't make a jot of difference.
I believe that its true and that everybody else is completely mistaken.
So what?

endacl

Got to respect something something something.

looksee

Wibbs wrote: »

Wondered how long it would take before good oul Catholic Ireland and the lingering self hate from same would surface. It may just have escaped your attention that Ireland and her culture have made huge strides in the last generation away from that and Ireland is a very different place today compared with the Ireland of yesterday. Hell it's different than it was in the 80's.

Sure we most certainly have some ways to go, but we're going, but don't let that get in the way of the self hate and BS cultural relevance stuff that's parroted way too often. Though it really is getting damned tiresome at this stage.

First, it is not self hate because I am neither Irish nor Catholic, though I have lived the greater part of my life here and raised a Catholic family.

Second, I was making the point that it is possible to extrapolate a supposed entire culture from single examples - which is what the OP was doing, and which I was copying.

It would be more effective to point out the the op that not everyone from a caste-conscious country agrees with the caste system, and efforts have and are being made to eliminate it. Similarly it would be easy to find numerous women in the UK of originally Islamic background who do not agree with or wear the veil.

steddyeddy

People are certainly free to believe whatever but the converse is that people are free to challenge other people's beliefs.

K-9

Well yes eddy, but people who follow religions generally aren't open to challenge on it, especially in a workplace!

steddyeddy

K-9 wrote: »

Well yes eddy, but people who follow religions generally aren't open to challenge on it, especially in a workplace!

No but beliefs form part of religions. Some of those beliefs may be that homosexuality is wrong, darker skin castes are inferior or that certain genders are less. If those topics come up in conversation then they can be challenged IMO.

wokingvoter

steddyeddy wrote: »

No but beliefs form part of religions. Somewhere of those beliefs may be that homosexuality is wrong, darker skin castes are inferior or that certain genders are less. If those topics come up in conversation then they can be challenged IMO.

....and if these topics don't come up in conversation, or if there's a conversation involving these topics going on and a person of a particular belief or coming from a particular culture, doesn't want to join in or comment, then its not your job, or anybody else's, to extract an opinion from them, especially with a view to "correcting" their mindset.

jmayo

steddyeddy wrote: »

Just to reiterate my the sentiment of my title guys I'm only wondering how much you have to respect beliefs that denigrate others e.g those that think gay people are evil or that women are lesser. Not how much should we randomly destroy other cultural beliefs.

I have to wonder would you be asking this question if it was a white supremacist we were talking about ?

You do not have to respect their beliefs at all.

They have a right to have them, but that doesn't mean you have to respect them or their beliefs.

And if they try and foist them on others, then tell them to fook off back to where they came from because they are now in a secular enlightened Western society in the 21st century.

K-9 wrote: »

As Yes Minister put it:
Civil Servant - "They stone women who commit adultery in West Yemen"
Sir Humpbrey - "Whereas our women commit adultery when they are stoned"

If it's their religion not a whole lot you can do about it, we used to do stupid things when Catholicism had a grip of this country, eat fish on Friday to doing the odd Jewish pogrom.

Once again we have the whataboutery.

The key there is we used to.

Why does someone always harp back to what used to be in Europe (usually decades or more likely centuries ago) to excuse what is current in some parts of the world today ?

The catholic church hasn't had a grip in Ireland in about two decades and never had in the UK.
And AFAIK there was only ever one pogrom in Ireland.

thattequilagirl

steddyeddy wrote: »

People are certainly free to believe whatever but the converse is that people are free to challenge other people's beliefs.

Unless it's directly effecting your work, the workplace is not an appropriate place for robust discourse on different cultural views.

One eyed Jack

steddyeddy wrote: »

No but beliefs form part of religions. Some of those beliefs may be that homosexuality is wrong, darker skin castes are inferior or that certain genders are less. If those topics come up in conversation then they can be challenged IMO.

Is it not hypocritical though (not to mention intellectually lazy on your part) to suggest to someone that you believe that as they are a scientist, they should believe what you believe?

Would it not be a better idea to try and understand why they hold the beliefs they do? Then talk about it, rather than go at it in a confrontational manner? That's just likely to reinforce their belief, the same way as if they tried to enforce their beliefs upon you, you're likely to object to it.

Simply telling someone "You're wrong!", is never going to encourage them to open their minds to learning anything new.

K-9

steddyeddy wrote: »

No but beliefs form part of religions. Some of those beliefs may be that homosexuality is wrong, darker skin castes are inferior or that certain genders are less. If those topics come up in conversation then they can be challenged IMO.

Well if they bring it up, yeah I'd say I/we believe differently, homosexuality is legal as is same sex marriage.

Personally we don't usually bring up stuff like abortion at work, leads to awkward silences!

Dyr

steddyeddy wrote: »

No but beliefs form part of religions. Some of those beliefs may be that homosexuality is wrong, darker skin castes are inferior or that certain genders are less. If those topics come up in conversation then they can be challenged IMO.

They can be challenged under employment law, plus racism and homophobia is gross misconduct in most workplaces.

A person can believe whatever they want but they better to wind their neck in when it comes to how they act

Dyr

jmayo wrote: »

And AFAIK there was only ever one pogrom in Ireland.

Our friends up north have been very partial to them

K-9

Divorce was outlawed here 20 years ago jmayo, lets not get too uppity on the aren't we a great liberal paradise, same sex marriage and all when women have to bring dead babies back in shoeboxes from England.

The point is it took centuries to get rid of the grip of the Church.

wakka12

Joxer_Daly wrote: »

Where is this? If it's in Ireland/Europe then they can **** off. If it's outside of Europe/the west then you probably just have to suck it up. When in Rome and all that.

Its this kind of mindset that will stop any change from occurring in these parts of the world, bigotry is not somehow more acceptable just because you're no longer in the politically correct western world

thattequilagirl

If the Saudi girl says "I usually prefer working on projects with women, because that's what I'm used to back home", she's just expressing an opinion she's totally entitled to. If she says "I will only work on projects with women", that's a problem.

wakka12

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Ridiculous, if somebody holds bigoted views that reinforces stereotypes or discrimination of other people, even if that individual may not be 'forcing' these people to do anything, we should still challenge their prejudiced views and hope to change them.

thattequilagirl

wakka12 wrote: »

Ridiculous, if somebody holds bigoted views that reinforces stereotypes or discrimination of other people, even if that individual may not be 'forcing' these people to do anything, we should still challenge their prejudiced views and hope to change them.

And you see no irony at all in your idea of trying to force your cultural beliefs on others?

wakka12

K-9 wrote: »

Divorce was outlawed here 20 years ago jmayo, lets not get too uppity on the aren't we a great liberal paradise, same sex marriage and all when women have to bring dead babies back in shoeboxes from England.

The point is it took centuries to get rid of the grip of the Church.

Umm what? We've made tremendous strides in social equality in a very short space of time. We did great. Whats your point? Were not allowed to point out bigotry in other cultures just because it was present here for a long time?

wakka12

thattequilagirl wrote: »

And you see no irony at all in your idea of trying to force your cultural beliefs on others?

If my cultural beliefs involve the equal treatment of all human beings and theirs don't then yes. Why should we even give any air space for a culture that places the value of other human beings as less just because of their skin colour, gender etc. Do you not see irony in that yourself? You're calling me unaccepting for not accepting a culture that doesn't accept many minorities themselves?

FA Hayek

Wibbs wrote: »

Wondered how long it would take before good oul Catholic Ireland and the lingering self hate from same would surface. It may just have escaped your attention that Ireland and her culture have made huge strides in the last generation away from that and Ireland is a very different place today compared with the Ireland of yesterday. Hell it's different than it was in the 80's.

Sure we most certainly have some ways to go, but we're going, but don't let that get in the way of the self hate and BS cultural relevance stuff that's parroted way too often. Though it really is getting damned tiresome at this stage.

Yes, I must agree with this. The constant bringing up of the church in any wider question on cultures that are damaging to liberties is kinda tiresome. Some people hate the Roman Catholic Church. We get it! But do we have to shoe horn it into every single topic? Self hating is right.