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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

.ak

There has been an awakening ... Have you felt it?

Cont. from here.

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Mahatma Geansai

Buer wrote: »

Motion to have James Downey struck from the list and disassociated from Leinster, please.

Poor Downey. That's a terrible way to treat the man who paved the way for modern Leinster backs. :pac:

brokenhooker

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Not as far as I know. There are currently four centres in the academy which bears out what I've been saying about meeting a perceived need in the pro squad.

Crosbie, Farrell, Daly, Ringrose & Brewer is 5.

O'Loughlin started off at centre too so you could say 6.

salmocab

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

22 of the Munster 23 are Irish Qualified.
18 of the Munster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
21 of the Munster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is only 26.

19 of the Leinster 23 are Irish Qualified.
15 of the Leinster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
17 of the Leinster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is 28.

That is how both squads compare. To me, it indicates that the Leinster academy may be underperforming when you compare it to its Munster counterpart; especially so when you compare the populations of both provinces.

I was about to thank you and make a point that this shows well for the academies in general but you had to ruin it. In reality you have to compare a lot more than these 3 things to judge the two academies.

[Deleted User]

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

22 of the Munster 23 are Irish Qualified.
18 of the Munster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
21 of the Munster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is only 26.

19 of the Leinster 23 are Irish Qualified.
15 of the Leinster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
17 of the Leinster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is 28.

That is how both squads compare. To me, it indicates that the Leinster academy may be underperforming when you compare it to its Munster counterpart; especially so when you compare the populations of both provinces.

And this is how you misuse data

CMOTDibbler

brokenhooker wrote: »

Crosbie, Farrell, Daly, Ringrose & Brewer is 5.

O'Loughlin started off at centre too so you could say 6.

I'd class Steve Crosbie as a ten. He's played in that position for most of his life; although I've often criticised him for playing like a 12

But that's his primary position, 12 at a pinch.

[Deleted User]

former total wrote: »

Eh, hello?

Noel 'Could be Leo's Son' Reid 2014

whatawaster

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

22 of the Munster 23 are Irish Qualified.
18 of the Munster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
21 of the Munster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is only 26.

19 of the Leinster 23 are Irish Qualified.
15 of the Leinster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
17 of the Leinster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is 28.

That is how both squads compare. To me, it indicates that the Leinster academy may be underperforming when you compare it to its Munster counterpart; especially so when you compare the populations of both provinces.

Not sure who is missing from Munster squad, but Leinster are without Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Sean O'Brien, Jack Conan and Marty Moore through injury - all academy graduates.

It's an interesting snapshot, but doesn't tell the full story.

brokenhooker

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'd class Steve Crosbie as a ten. He's played in that position for most of his life; although I've often criticised him for playing like a 12

But that's his primary position, 12 at a pinch.

he has been playing 12 almost totally for the A team. He isn't viewed as a 10 by the professional outfit but a 12, much like how Reid ended up moving to 12.

not that it matters as he won't be at leinster much longer.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

we need all the numbers we can get.

By all means put in Denis Hurley then.

The likes of himself and Downey chugging through midfield has not been seen since the 1997 Provincial Towns Cup.

Number 137

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

22 of the Munster 23 are Irish Qualified.
18 of the Munster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
21 of the Munster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is only 26.

19 of the Leinster 23 are Irish Qualified.
15 of the Leinster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
17 of the Leinster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is 28.

That is how both squads compare. To me, it indicates that the Leinster academy may be underperforming when you compare it to its Munster counterpart; especially so when you compare the populations of both provinces.

I would argue that the reason that Munster have ''better numbers'' here is because they had a lot of retirements after their peak in the mid naughties. So younger players began to filter in and take their place. This happened 4 or 5 years later for Leinster. It will be interesting to compare these stats again in 5 years.

CatFromHue

Are there many guys outside the Munster 23 who would be good, homegrown but not available.

For Lein there's Furlong, Moore, Tracey, SOB, Conan, Luke Fitz, RK, Ried

brokenhooker

CatFromHue wrote: »

Are there many guys outside the Munster 23 who would be good, homegrown but not available.

For Lein there's Furlong, Moore, Tracey, SOB, Conan, Luke Fitz, RK, Ried

Nearly all forwards you will note.
Reid isn't good by the way, he is barely pro 12 standard, another back leinster have failed with.

brokenhooker

Number 137 wrote: »

I would argue that the reason that Munster have ''better numbers'' here is because they had a lot of retirements after their peak in the mid naughties. So younger players began to filter in and take their place. This happened 4 or 5 years later for Leinster. It will be interesting to compare these stats again in 5 years.

Leinster have had plenty of retirements lately and with more to come.. no sign of the academy being able to fill those places in the backs.

Number 137

Buer wrote: »

By all means put in Denis Hurley then.

The likes of himself and Downey chugging through midfield has not been seen since the 1997 Provincial Towns Cup.

Has Crosbie not signed a senior contract for next season? Also, am I correct in saying he is finishing this season on loan to Edinburgh?

CMOTDibbler

brokenhooker wrote: »

he has been playing 12 almost totally for the A team. He isn't viewed as a 10 by the professional outfit but a 12, much like how Reid ended up moving to 12.

not that it matters as he won't be at leinster much longer.

He's just had a shoulder op, so his future is uncertain. He was certainly added to the academy as a ten and his two senior appearances were at ten. The academy website lists him as a ten.

CMOTDibbler

Number 137 wrote: »

Has Crosbie not signed a senior contract for next season? Also, am I correct in saying he is finishing this season on loan to Edinburgh?

No, he hasn't got a senior contract. He didn't make Edinburgh because of the shoulder injury which he's getting done now.

Number 137

brokenhooker wrote: »

Leinster have had plenty of retirements lately and with more to come.. no sign of the academy being able to fill those places in the backs.

And perhaps given a consistent run of games, players who mean seem like nothing special now could come good. Van Der Flier was solid at best last season. But a run of games helped. Conor Murray only got a run of games following injuries to Stringer and O'Leary at Munster. He was a Lion within a few years. It's possible without that opportunity he may not have flourished. I'll make my judgement on these academy players when they get a consistent run of games with the senior players.

brokenhooker

Number 137 wrote: »

And perhaps given a consistent run of games, players who mean seem like nothing special now could come good. Van Der Flier was solid at best last season. But a run of games helped. Conor Murray only got a run of games following injuries to Stringer and O'Leary at Munster. He was a Lion within a few years. It's possible without that opportunity he may not have flourished. I'll make my judgement on these academy players when they get a consistent run of games with the senior players.

yet that aren't given, leinster rely on NIQ's and older players to keep playing.

a 35 year old scrumhalf who is miles off his best is starting tomorrow after all.

brokenhooker

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

He's just had a shoulder op, so his future is uncertain. He was certainly added to the academy as a ten and his two senior appearances were at ten. The academy website lists him as a ten.

his senior appearances were at 12, the academy website is irrelevent, its rarely updated.

thomond2006

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

22 of the Munster 23 are Irish Qualified.
18 of the Munster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
21 of the Munster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is only 26.

19 of the Leinster 23 are Irish Qualified.
15 of the Leinster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
17 of the Leinster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is 28.

That is how both squads compare. To me, it indicates that the Leinster academy may be underperforming when you compare it to its Munster counterpart; especially so when you compare the populations of both provinces.

Taking one game in isolation doesn't suggest anything. Also 'performing' has to be measured in quality of player, not quantity.

CMOTDibbler

brokenhooker wrote: »

yet that aren't given, leinster rely on NIQ's and older players to keep playing.

a 35 year old scrumhalf who is miles off his best is starting tomorrow after all.

Don't confuse using your squad with holding back players. Reddan is still the more experienced scrum half and is still playing very well. Luke started the last game and Reddan starts this one. That's proper squad rotation and keeps everyone on their toes.

I'd leave it to the coaches to decide which academy players are up to the task of playing a senior match, my issue is with the size and scope of the academy. Eight or nine new intake every year is pitiful imo.

Number 137

brokenhooker wrote: »

yet that aren't given, leinster rely on NIQ's and older players to keep playing.

a 35 year old scrumhalf who is miles off his best is starting tomorrow after all.

I agree that the academy hasn't produced as much talent in the backs as we'd like, but let me ask you this; What would you do to rectify that?

salmocab

Broken Hooker do you think maybe there just hasn't been the players you want in the academy? What I mean is Leinster can only produce top players if they have them in the first place in the system so over the last few years we have been spitting out back rows as there was good raw talent in the system but maybe there just hasn't been players that had the potential to be the next BOD or Hickie, barring Ringrose hopefully. They can only bring in the best of whats available to them and undoubtedly they make a few errors of judgement but Id imagine thats the same in all pro sports on the planet. Some players might look like they have everything at senior cup level but might never make it due to many circumstances.

CMOTDibbler

brokenhooker wrote: »

his senior appearances were at 12, the academy website is irrelevent, its rarely updated.

Well I disagree. And I've given good reasons for doing so. Including where he's actually played for the senior team and not a jury-rigged selection for the As.

brokenhooker

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Well I disagree. And I've given good reasons for doing so. Including where he's actually played for the senior team and not a jury-rigged selection for the As.

he actually played 12 for the senior team..

the first appearance he came on for R Kearney, and Madigan moved to 15 with Crosbie at 12.

the second appearance he replaced Teo, with Reid moving to 13 and Crosbie at 12.

he didn't play 10 for the senior team and he rarely has ever played there for the A's

Not sure what this "jury-riggeed selection" stuff is about.

brokenhooker

Number 137 wrote: »

I agree that the academy hasn't produced as much talent in the backs as we'd like, but let me ask you this; What would you do to rectify that?

I don't have a specfic plan other than trusting young players earlier, stop relying on average NIQ's, give players better skill coaching, encourage playing rugby in a certain style etc.

It's not my job to develop backs for Leinster, someone else is paid a lot of money to do that and is doing a poor job.

errlloyd

brokenhooker wrote: »

his senior appearances were at 12, the academy website is irrelevent, its rarely updated.

IIRC the vast majority of his minutes were actually played at 13 when Ben Teo went off.

brokenhooker

salmocab wrote: »

Broken Hooker do you think maybe there just hasn't been the players you want in the academy? What I mean is Leinster can only produce top players if they have them in the first place in the system so over the last few years we have been spitting out back rows as there was good raw talent in the system but maybe there just hasn't been players that had the potential to be the next BOD or Hickie, barring Ringrose hopefully. They can only bring in the best of whats available to them and undoubtedly they make a few errors of judgement but Id imagine thats the same in all pro sports on the planet. Some players might look like they have everything at senior cup level but might never make it due to many circumstances.

So Munster, Connacht & Ulster have more raw talent? Sorry but I fail to accept that.

Leinster have done a poor job at identifying and developing talent, it's as simple as that.

brokenhooker

errlloyd wrote: »

IIRC the vast majority of his minutes were actually played at 13 when Ben Teo went off.

then he has played 12 and 13, he has never played 10 for Leinster senior team.

neelia11

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

That is how both squads compare. To me, it indicates that the Leinster academy may be underperforming when you compare it to its Munster counterpart; especially so when you compare the populations of both provinces.

it means nothing of the sort. It just shows there is a cycle of how things work and they are not running side by side. The Munster side that won two HEC's pretty much all left/retired by the time Leinster won their third one in 2012, but that side went onto win the Amlin/Pro12 a year later too.

No academy in any of the 4 provinces is ever under/over performing. They will always go through cycles of producing players. In an ideal world there would be players in every position always coming through across the academies but sometimes it just doesnt work that way. In 5-6 year from now Leinster might have another crop of backs akin to what they had in the early noughties but struggle for backrows and Ulster might run out of centres and be overloaded with quality young backrows.