Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

But was he the last person to see her? If someone else killed her, they are the last person.

More mind boggling is that he would put her bones behind his house if she was burnt somewhere else? Why would be bring them back there? Unless he wanted to go back to prison.

sorry Im taking about a different case, not the steve avery one... sorry:)

marklazarcovic wrote: »

I think he was coached after initial statement,there were a lot of people who wanted steven for this,a lot,..

I think the cop took advantage of finding the ladys car and remains in the quarry,and with the help of one or two others made it so it all pointed towards steven in order to get out of the huge bill they faced,and to get revenge for him getting out ,making them all look guilty from his conviction for the sexual assault that put him away for 18 years....

Which was a farce and where most of those involved in that were involved in this case too.

And the lies re the timelines? Why did they do that if they have nothing to hide.

I think your explanation is equally plausible. I think that the police also got stuff off Teresa's brother and used him as well. It was surprising that he never once questioned the dodgy stuff. He said 'I love the police'. This blind allegiance is odd to me. Wouldn't he want to know all possibilities? But, no. It was Avery. No matter what he heard. Did he provide them with the key to plant? The spare key? That implicates him and that us why he never questioned the police being underhand, or cared about it.

There is video footage at the start of Steven's room. The camera pans right next to where the key was found, much later.

I think there was something so odd about Theresa's brother. He was constantly smirking, laughing and smiling the whole way through......

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's strange that not much emphasis was put on the bones found in the quarry, maybe the prosecutors argued it away and the documentary makers didn't put it in

If you think the body was burned in the quarry then moved to the fire pit the burn barrel used would indicate it had to have been one of the family or someone close

I beleive the bones at the quarry couldn't be identified as Halbach or even human so that's why less emphasis. I really don't know how the body could have been burned at the quarry and moved in such a clean and covert way. The mess of burning and cooling and transporting the body in a barrell without leaving a trail of evidence and mess, seems impossible. It takes hours to burn a human body (we are mostly liquid). Was the piping hot barrell put in a vehicle and carried around the place, surely there would have been evidence of moving it from where it was? Not sure of the timeline either, from her disappearance at around 3.30 (?) to the bonfire around 9 (?) Was enough time for all that to have occurred including her murder by someone other than Avery?

Oh I think the ex and roommate are complete red herrings, whoever did it had intimate knowledge of the Avery property.

fin12 wrote: »

I think there was something so odd about Theresa's brother. He was constantly smirking, laughing and smiling the whole way through......

I think he just lived being 'in' with the police. Clearly they just used him. They only wanted to nail Avery. When that O'Kelly cried about the blue ribbon it was do weird. They didn't care about justice for her. They wanted justice for themselves.

Why was Judge Willis allowed to predide over a case where the defendant had implicated his colleagues in a massive compensation case? That should never have been allowed. He was too involved. The defence knew he was on their side.

I'd love for a new trial, granted on the basis that Judge Willis was biased and could therefore not be impartial.

Just finished it there...emotional wreck after it, amazing television.

marklazarcovic

daisybelle2008 wrote:

I beleive the bones at the quarry couldn't be identified as Halbach or even human so that's why less emphasis. I really don't know how the body could have been burned at the quarry and moved in such a clean and covert way. The mess of burning and cooling and transporting the body in a barrell without leaving a trail of evidence and mess, seems impossible. It takes hours to burn a human body (we are mostly liquid). Was the piping hot barrell put in a vehicle and carried around the place, surely there would have been evidence of moving it from where it was? Not sure of the timeline either, from her disappearance at around 3.30 (?) to the bonfire around 9 (?) Was enough time for all that to have occurred including her murder by someone other than Avery?

She was missing for days,not one day,body burned on day one and removed. Nxt day for example,ample time for any amount of scenarios

fin12 wrote: »

I am watching it, but
just because the cops screw up with the evidence does not mean he is innocent look at the OJ Simpson case, everybody knows he was guilty, anyway I just find that fact that the same man is the last person to see two women alive who both end up dead at the bottom of a stairs and he is on one women's will and the other on her life insurance policy and also kathleen was laying dying for hours because when the paramedics came the blood on the walls was completely dry, I think he is as guilty as sin, cops tampering with evidence can convict innocent but can also lead to guilty people getting off as well
.

Well he is out pending a retrial because the prosecution witness on the blood spatters perjured himself and made up a load of nonsense. Funnily the defense expert was brilliant and made that guy look like a charlatan so not surprising. The so called murder weapon turned out to be a red herring. Hilarious the prosecution back tracked on that. He had no financial gain from the woman in Germany and actually ended up raising her two kids (who don't believe he did it). She had a cerebral heamorrage per her autopsy. Pretty much everyone has a life insurance policy. The owl theory is interesting because there is actual physical evidence of that as opposed to anything the prosecution could dream up.

Episode 2, 38.50 minutes in. The camera pans right next to where that little cabinet is. This was one of the earlier searches.

marklazarcovic wrote: »

She was missing for days,not one day,body burned on day one and removed. Nxt day for example,ample time for any amount of scenarios

Burned where? Removed to where?
Yeah I suppose I have trouble with that as I haven't seen a logical theory explored or mapped out, even by the defense. I can understand how the lack of evidence of Thereseas bones at the quarry would cause them to back off going near that, in any event it would probably have been overulled as too speculative without conclusive evidence of TH. Her body in the fire pit and barrell was intertwined with tyres and material from the yard. If the Janda barrell was used as a method of transporting TH around was it in someone's vehicle, manually? It is nearly a km to the quarry. To get up to the temperature of incinerating the body then it sufficiently cooling to move and plant it on Avery's bonfire (so it gets knotted up with the rest of the material) in the timeline. I'm not sure how someone could have physically murdered her and planned and executed that in a few hours with Avery totally oblivious to it on his doorstep.
Steven Avery's appeal proposes all his own brothers, all the Dassey brothers including Brendan and Scott Tydach and a few other customers of the yard.

The brother, ex and roommate are completed red herrings and are not being proposed as possible suspects by the defence anymore.

curly from cork

Quote:

As a slight aside and purely on the aesthetics of the documentary, the intro is magnificent. Especially the music

Just finished the last episode at 2.30 am .. Watched the last 5 episodes in one sitting .. Riveting .. I agree the opening intro music is great, it reminded me a lot of "the bridge " opening . Both Netflix productions possibly the same composer/ score director ?

daisybelle2008 wrote: »

Burned where? Removed to where?
Yeah I suppose I have trouble with that as I haven't seen a logical theory explored or mapped out, even by the defense. I can understand how the lack of evidence of Thereseas bones at the quarry would cause them to back off going near that, in any event it would probably have been overulled as too speculative without conclusive evidence of TH. Her body in the fire pit and barrell was intertwined with tyres and material from the yard. If the Janda barrell was used as a method of transporting TH around was it in someone's vehicle, manually? It is nearly a km to the quarry. To get up to the temperature of incinerating the body then it sufficiently cooling to move and plant it on Avery's bonfire (so it gets knotted up with the rest of the material) in the timeline. I'm not sure how someone could have physically murdered her and planned and executed that in a few hours with Avery totally oblivious to it on his doorstep.
Steven Avery's appeal proposes all his own brothers, all the Dassey brothers including Brendan and Scott Tydach and a few other customers of the yard.

The brother, ex and roommate are completed red herrings and are not being proposed as possible suspects by the defence anymore.

Because they weren't allowed to present alternative theories during the trial - the judge forbid it. This is one of the most baffling things of the whole legal system. Imagine the defense team having evidence that someone else committed the crime but not being able to use it. Bizarre! Of course all the above people you mentioned are suspects.

Also the insinuation throughout the show was that she wasn't killed at Avery's at all. There is a scene where a witness said he seen a car been driven down much later that night that for some reason he was suspicious about, and the police ignored it. I don't remember the details now. Also the defence made clear that the bones were moved to the Avery property. The scrapyard was huge, did you see the amount of cars? Very possible to do it without Avery noticing.

The lesson in this is if you are ever arrested don't say anything until you get a lawyer, especially if you are innocent. If the police have no evidence it's more likely they will try to manipulate you into a confession or conflicting statements. The same thing happened with Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda didn't even speak the language or have a translator early on.

Of course if you get a lawyer like Kachinsky then you are really screwed, you'd have to demand a new one. Then there is the issue, such as with Brendan Dassey and Amanda Knox where the police don't even tell you you are a suspect. So even if you think you are just a witness it's still best to stay quiet without a lawyer!

Itssoeasy

Just finished the series.

So many emotions and there are some very good people and some utter slim balls in it especially Ken Kratz and and the blue ribbon guy that was part of Brendan's first legal team. He deserves an Oscar IMO for his performance during rhe appeal appearance.

The brother of Teresa halbach I didn't like at all. He seemed too happy to talk to the media and didn't seem that upset from what I saw and if your sister was murdered you'd expect him to be upset to some degree.

Also the whole Brendan thing in episode 4 was awful to watch. He clearly had no way to understand what was happening.

I know people might give out about the gardai but compared to the police in this particular case I have to say I'm happier living in Ireland than Wisconsin.

On Steve avery, I don't think the state made a good enough case from the footage I saw to say beyond reasonable doubt that he was the person responsible.

Am I right in remembering that the local police dept were allowed on site for eight days without a warrant ? That seems madness to me.

Ageyev

A Primal Nut wrote: »

The lesson in this is if you are ever arrested don't say anything until you get a lawyer, especially if you are innocent. If the police have no evidence it's more likely they will try to manipulate you into a confession or conflicting statements. The same thing happened with Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda didn't even speak the language or have a translator early on.

Of course if you get a lawyer like Kachinsky then you are really screwed, you'd have to demand a new one. Then there is the issue, such as with Brendan Dassey and Amanda Knox where the police don't even tell you you are a suspect. So even if you think you are just a witness it's still best to stay quiet without a lawyer!

Steven Avery didn't help his own case by talking to the media before he was arested and Teresa's body found. Accusing police of framing you before you're even arrested and charged isn't a good idea.

Avery's "civil rights" lawyer alleged that the cops wouldn't tell him where he was being questioned.

I think here in Ireland you don't get a public defender until you go to court.

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Because they weren't allowed to present alternative theories during the trial - the judge forbid it. This is one of the most baffling things of the whole legal system. Imagine the defense team having evidence that someone else committed the crime but not being able to use it. Bizarre! Of course all the above people you mentioned are suspects.

Also the insinuation throughout the show was that she wasn't killed at Avery's at all. There is a scene where a witness said he seen a car been driven down much later that night that for some reason he was suspicious about, and the police ignored it. I don't remember the details now. Also the defence made clear that the bones were moved to the Avery property. The scrapyard was huge, did you see the amount of cars? Very possible to do it without Avery noticing.

I have switched back and forth around Avery's involvement, I'm not aware of the actual evidence that someone else committed the crime you mention? That's the problem for the defence also they can't pin it down to less than 9 possible suspects. The brother looking a bit shifty does not put him on their list obviously. The moving around of the body theory has as many if not more holes than Avery actually doing it without moving it around. And Avery's sweat DNA under her hood is hard to explain away. I think that there is enough reasonable doubt not to convict but that doesn't mean Avery didn't do it. I'm not 100% sure he did but the alternative scenarios haven't been been mapped out for me to get behind one.

curly from cork wrote: »

Quote:

As a slight aside and purely on the aesthetics of the documentary, the intro is magnificent. Especially the music

Just finished the last episode at 2.30 am .. Watched the last 5 episodes in one sitting .. Riveting .. I agree the opening intro music is great, it reminded me a lot of "the bridge " opening . Both Netflix productions possibly the same composer/ score director ?

It really is class, the whole documentary. Have told so many people to watch it and everyone has loved it so far.

Re, the headlights, I think that was Avery's brother. He said he told the cops but they said he was talking '****' or something like that. Not really surprising the police wouldn't nvestigate that. Not sure if the defence did, but it did seem important, I agree.

Elmo

Halbach's brother is an interesting suspect. How many times in this country (and probably in other countries) have we seen Murderers to the fore of searches and in the front of the camera?

Though I don't think it was him.

El Inho

What if there was to be a Making a Murderer Movie....

http://goos3d.ie/wholl-play-who-in-making-a-murderer-movie/

Elmo

El Inho wrote: »

What if there was to be a Making a Murderer Movie....

http://goos3d.ie/wholl-play-who-in-making-a-murderer-movie/

Funny I though it was a drama starring Eddie Izzard in the main role, he looks like Eddie Izzard on the poster IMO.

I actually thought ur man was crying at the blue ribbon thing because he felt guilt and remorce of how he treated Brendan, like how he manipulated a 16 year old kid, he seemed to be giving direct honest answers to how he had conducted himself with Brendan and what his plan was all along...

Slogger Jogger

Lots of things keep flashing back to me. How more wasn't made of the blood vial from the previous case that was obviously tampered with from being held 'securely' in evidence vaults. Didn't that tampering not generate even 1% of a doubt as to where the blood was sourced from?

As the prosecuting investigator said, but I'm not sure it was said in trial, it didn't make sense that there was blood in the car but no fingerprints. You should have none or both.

Then again, when members of the jury had apparently their minds made up before they even set down to discuss the case what change does one stand.

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I know people might give out about the gardai but compared to the police in this particular case I have to say I'm happier living in Ireland than Wisconsin.

For the most part but I wonder about some things especially regarding the interrogations and so on. Wouldn't surprise me if they'd use similar tactics.

Am I right in remembering that the local police dept were allowed on site for eight days without a warrant ? That seems madness to me.

I think so and they found the car key on the eight search. By a guy in trouble over the Steven Avery suit and belonging to the police department who handed over responsibility due to a conflict of interest.

daisybelle2008 wrote: »

I have switched back and forth around Avery's involvement, I'm not aware of the actual evidence that someone else committed the crime you mention? That's the problem for the defence also they can't pin it down to less than 9 possible suspects. The brother looking a bit shifty does not put him on their list obviously. The moving around of the body theory has as many if not more holes than Avery actually doing it without moving it around. And Avery's sweat DNA under her hood is hard to explain away. I think that there is enough reasonable doubt not to convict but that doesn't mean Avery didn't do it. I'm not 100% sure he did but the alternative scenarios haven't been been mapped out for me to get behind one.

I agree, the documentary purposely stayed away from presenting alternative scenarios, probably because they didn't want to defame anyone and also they wanted the viewer to make up their own mind. Anyway, there is plenty of stuff online about alternative scenarios but obviously a lack of evidence because the police never followed those trails. There was a couple of clues such as Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych having perfect alibis for each other, both of which were contradicted by the bus driver, and Bobby having scratches on his back the day after the murder.

Here's a very speculative theory:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y91q8/how_bobby_dassey_could_have_killed_teresa_and_the/

Obviously short on evidence as the police never investigated him as a suspect, so read it for what it is.

Anyway all this misses the main point of the documentary. Even if Avery did it, the filmmakers have said the documentary is not about whether Avery did it or not, it's about exposing the problems in the legal system, and nobody can dispute that those problems exist. The inability of the defense to provide evidence implicating other suspects was one such problem.

fin12 wrote: »

I actually thought ur man was crying at the blue ribbon thing because he felt guilt and remorce of how he treated Brendan, like how he manipulated a 16 year old kid, he seemed to be giving direct honest answers to how he had conducted himself with Brendan and what his plan was all along...

I think he was acting, trying to get across the idea that he was did what he did because he was so hurt by what happened to Tesera Halbach. Which is a crock because he is supposed to be professional and represent his client first and foremost.

secondrowgal

Can I ask that we just stick to discussing this case and not others, at least not without spoilers please? I haven't seen/heard about a number of these others and would like to watch the documentaries from a fresh point of view, thanks!

Itssoeasy

A Primal Nut wrote: »

For the most part but I wonder about some things especially regarding the interrogations and so on. Wouldn't surprise me if they'd use similar tactics.

I think so and they found the car key on the eight search. By a guy in trouble over the Steven Avery suit and belonging to the police department who handed over responsibility due to a conflict of interest.

I mean from the pictures or the key if it was were it was photographed then you wouldn't need to search EIGHT times.

20Cent

Glued to it have three episodes to go.

Biggest thing I think is the key. Definitely planted there. That means that the car was also left there by someone else. Cobyrn (I think) the cop found it days earlier called dispatch to confirm the plate. Seriously dodgy. None of the explanations for the murder make any sense, tied to his bed or in the garage.

Feel so sorry for Brendan his treatment was outrageous.