What to tell kids when they ask?

eviltwin wrote: »

When your vulnerable?

OK Gotcha and agreed.

lazygal wrote: »

Really? This is discrimination? :rolleyes::eek::D

Yes, there is plenty of discrimination against non-Catholics in Catholic schools - some recent examples;

- We're going to Mass tomorrow. If you don't go to Mass, don't come in until 10am (huge impact on working parents)
- We're having our school concert next week. It is entirely based around the Nativity story, so if you're not Catholic (or prepared to pretend to be Catholic), you don't get to take part in this major celebratory event on the school calendar.
- We're holding a reception in the school after the Communion/Confirmation mass for those to took part in the sacrament. If you're not Catholic, or prepared to pretend to be Catholic, you won't get an invite, so your child and family can not share in the celebration of this event with their peers.

Swanner wrote: »

You're incorrect.

She didn't get from me or her mother. She may have had some influence from other family members and school but not enough for it to be a major factor.

We noticed early on that she loved asking probing questions about the nature of things. Same way all kids ask questions but she just always seemed to gravitate towards some kind of spirituality. Obviously age appropriate. We responded and gave her all the facts we had to give her. Again age appropriate.

At risk of being slightly pedantic, if you were talking to her about religion and faith, you weren't giving her facts - because there are no facts when it comes to religion. But seriously, she didn't lick it off the stones - she got it from her parents or those around her. She didn't just come up with it herself.

looksee

Huntergonzo, I will not copy your last post as I hope it will be removed. It is crude and ignorant and while I describe myself as an atheist it does not mean I identify with your language or ideas.

Huntergonzo

looksee wrote: »

Huntergonzo, I will not copy your last post as I hope it will be removed. It is crude and ignorant and while I describe myself as an atheist it does not mean I identify with your language or ideas.

Haha, jokin' obviously lad, it was very purposely crude and ignorant and why take it so seriously anyway, happy new year.

RainyDay wrote: »

Yes, there is plenty of discrimination against non-Catholics in Catholic schools - some recent examples;

- We're going to Mass tomorrow. If you don't go to Mass, don't come in until 10am (huge impact on working parents)
- We're having our school concert next week. It is entirely based around the Nativity story, so if you're not Catholic (or prepared to pretend to be Catholic), you don't get to take part in this major celebratory event on the school calendar.
- We're holding a reception in the school after the Communion/Confirmation mass for those to took part in the sacrament. If you're not Catholic, or prepared to pretend to be Catholic, you won't get an invite, so your child and family can not share in the celebration of this event with their peers..

But you've enrolled your child in a Roman Catholic school. I'm really struggling to understand what your expectations were ?

If I sent my children to a Roman Catholic school I would expect all of the above. So I didn't send them to one ??

RainyDay wrote: »

At risk of being slightly pedantic, if you were talking to her about religion and faith, you weren't giving her facts - because there are no facts when it comes to religion. But seriously, she didn't lick it off the stones - she got it from her parents or those around her. She didn't just come up with it herself.

I can think of countless facts about religion.

Maybe our definitions of religion differ ?

And I think our definitions of faith differ too.

Faith is a belief in something other. It doesn't have to be in the Christian God or the Hindu God or any other God. It just has to be in something other. She was a normal kid who just happened to have an interest in spiritual stuff in the same way other kids might get into dinosaurs. From that a belief emerged, a faith. That's all it was.

So you can keep telling me I influenced her and I can keep telling you I didn't all day long. It really doesn't matter and unless you remember her childhood differently and can give an alternative account, I've no desire to convince you on this. It was what it was and as the one who witnessed it, I'm happy with what I've written. .

robindch

Huntergonzo wrote: »

[...] very purposely crude and ignorant [...]

Two crude posts deleted - I'm putting this one down to cheap booze and the night that's in it.

Happy new year!

Cabaal

Mary63 wrote: »

If my child was in a muslim school then no I wouldn't have a problem with prayers to Allah,I would have informed myself as to what he would be learning prior to starting in the muslim school.I certainly wouldn't be telling the teacher or principal how to do their job,I can only imagine the response I would get objecting to muslim teaching in a muslim school.

That's great to hear,
Let's hope you are as accepting of being seen as lower and less important then all men as perfectly ok too... Sure that's no big deal. Also what is with your disrespectful clothes?

Huntergonzo

robindch wrote: »

Two crude posts deleted - I'm putting this one down to cheap booze and the night that's in it.

Happy new year!

Haha right on, sorry about that.

I'm happy with the ones that are left though, I honestly tried serious debate but I got static back so I just thought I'd have a bit of fun with them.

Swanner wrote: »

But you've enrolled your child in a Roman Catholic school. I'm really struggling to understand what your expectations were ?

If I sent my children to a Roman Catholic school I would expect all of the above. So I didn't send them to one ??

OK, so here's my expectations from a public service funded from taxpayers money;

1) School runs in school hours. If most kids are going to Mass, one teacher stays behind with the non-Catholic kids. Is that too much to ask?

2) The school concert is designed to be inclusive. Add one or two non-religious songs to the start or end of the show so that everybody can take part. Is that too much to ask?

3) The school celebration for Communion and Confirmation is inclusive. Everybody in the class is invited along with their parents to share in the celebration. Is that too much to ask?

So on these particular issues of discrimination, I'm not looking for constitutional change or changes to the patronage model. Just a slightly different way of thinking - an inclusive approach - is that really too much to ask?

Swanner wrote: »

So you can keep telling me I influenced her and I can keep telling you I didn't all day long. It really doesn't matter and unless you remember her childhood differently and can give an alternative account, I've no desire to convince you on this. It was what it was and as the one who witnessed it, I'm happy with what I've written. .

I've never seen a toddler take an interest in anything that they don't get from their parents (or possibly other significant adult like a child minder), because that is simply their world. They don't have other influences. It is literally incredible to suggest that a child developed a faith on their own.

We're all born atheist, and faith is taught or otherwise imparted by adults. That's why the churches put huge emphasis on teaching faith. It doesn't come naturally.

RainyDay wrote: »

OK, so here's my expectations from a public service funded from taxpayers money;

Schools with a religious ethos are not providing a public service, they are a private organisation and can discriminate against parents who are not members of their organisation. The State has literally outsourced the education of children to private organisations, it would still have had to pay for the services they provide, and would have had to fund each child's education anyway.

1) School runs in school hours. If most kids are going to Mass, one teacher stays behind with the non-Catholic kids. Is that too much to ask?

Had you spoken to the Principal or other parents in the school about it? Given that I know some schools are struggling and cannot spare teachers to supervise a small number of students, I can see how it would indeed be too much to ask of the school, but would it be too much to ask of parents? It doesn't appear unreasonable IMO to ask that a parent bring their child to school an hour later.

2) The school concert is designed to be inclusive. Add one or two non-religious songs to the start or end of the show so that everybody can take part. Is that too much to ask?

You said it was the Nativity? How is that designed to be inclusive? If you're not religious, then why would you be put out that your child isn't included in what is in essence a religious themed event?

3) The school celebration for Communion and Confirmation is inclusive. Everybody in the class is invited along with their parents to share in the celebration. Is that too much to ask?

It is? That's honestly the first I've ever heard that a school celebration of Communion and Confirmation is supposed to be inclusive, or is that just your own opinion? I can guarantee you that if a general invitation was sent out to all parents in the school to celebrate Communion and Confirmation, you'd have parents complaining because they were invited to a Communion or Confirmation and they're under pressure to go now and all the rest of it.

So on these particular issues of discrimination, I'm not looking for constitutional change or changes to the patronage model. Just a slightly different way of thinking - an inclusive approach - is that really too much to ask?

Nothing is ever too much to ask, but in order for anything to happen, you have to ask first - did you ask? Did you approach the Principal, parents?

I've never seen a toddler take an interest in anything that they don't get from their parents (or possibly other significant adult like a child minder), because that is simply their world. They don't have other influences. It is literally incredible to suggest that a child developed a faith on their own.

Nonsense. Children's world's are only limited by their imagination. They have plenty of other influences in the world around them and that's why you have so many posters here who want to protect their children from the influence of religion and religious indoctrination. Had you no books to read as a child? Nothing to fuel your imagination? It's not unusual at all that children will express what sounds like faith, or what sounds like beliefs, because they're still making sense of the world around them.

We're all born atheist, and faith is taught or otherwise imparted by adults. That's why the churches put huge emphasis on teaching faith. It doesn't come naturally.

From the moment we're born, we're asking questions and looking to make sense of the world around us. Therefore it's both silly and pointless to identify new-born babies as atheist as much as they are theist. They are non-religious. Secondly, the desire to make sense of the world around us absolutely comes naturally, and religion is one of the ways in which we make sense of the world.

The Church Hierarchy puts huge emphasis on faith, because they'd be out of a job otherwise :pac:

recedite

Swanner wrote: »

But you've enrolled your child in a Roman Catholic school. I'm really struggling to understand what your expectations were ?

If I sent my children to a Roman Catholic school I would expect all of the above. So I didn't send them to one ?? ...

All your posts are from the point of view of someone who wants their child to attend a CoI school, which is easy at primary level and slightly less easy at secondary.
You have no empathy or consideration for those who see CoI as no better than RC.

What if the positions of CoI and Islam were reversed in this country? Your options of getting access to a CoI school would be severely limited (only 2 schools in existence)
You would know exactly what to expect in both the RC school and the Islamic school. Which would you choose, and why?
Is knowing what to expect going to make you satisfied that the choice available is a fair choice?

xband

Outsourced means paying a contractor to provide a service for you and to your specifications.

The problem here is that the outsourcers have become more powerful than the client and they've been dictating policy. The whole relationship is upside down.

The outsourced service isn't even in line with the client (the state/people)'s needs.

The state needs to grow up and grow a pair!!

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Schools with a religious ethos are not providing a public service, they are a private organisation and can discriminate against parents who are not members of their organisation. The State has literally outsourced the education of children to private organisations, it would still have had to pay for the services they provide, and would have had to fund each child's education anyway.

Grand so, if they're not providing a public service, they can say goodbye to public funding.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Had you spoken to the Principal or other parents in the school about it? Given that I know some schools are struggling and cannot spare teachers to supervise a small number of students, I can see how it would indeed be too much to ask of the school, but would it be too much to ask of parents? It doesn't appear unreasonable IMO to ask that a parent bring their child to school an hour later.

Yes, spoke to the Principal and got the distinct impression that it was more a 'couldn't be arsed to help the heathens' than any resource issue.

IMO it is very unreasonable to expect parents to change work shifts or arrange child-minding to accommodate a faith-based event.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You said it was the Nativity? How is that designed to be inclusive? If you're not religious, then why would you be put out that your child isn't included in what is in essence a religious themed event?

It is? That's honestly the first I've ever heard that a school celebration of Communion and Confirmation is supposed to be inclusive, or is that just your own opinion? I can guarantee you that if a general invitation was sent out to all parents in the school to celebrate Communion and Confirmation, you'd have parents complaining because they were invited to a Communion or Confirmation and they're under pressure to go now and all the rest of it.

I was answering the question from the other poster about how it should work. The school concert should be inclusive. The celebration should be inclusive. Everything the school does should be inclusive - all pupils are equal, and should be welcomed equally.

Why would I be put out about a child not participating in the religious-themed concert? It IS the school concert. It's not like there is a choice of religious and non-religious. It is the only school concert. It's the only chance for parents to see their kids performing on a stage. Why would it be so difficult to include ALL students?

And your 'guarantee' about parents complaining about an invitation? COme on, you're clutching at straws here. I worked hard to influence the parents association a few years back to ensure that the invite went to all students and parents. No-one griped about getting the invitation. Some non-religious students/families came to the presentation. Some didn't. It wasn't hard. But without someone like me pushing the issue, they've slipped back to the old exclusive habits of excluding some students and families from a school event.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nothing is ever too much to ask, but in order for anything to happen, you have to ask first - did you ask? Did you approach the Principal, parents?

Yes, I worked on all three issues with the Principal and Parents Association. I made progress on one out of the three, but that progress is being lost.

But really, why should I have to ask? Schools should be inclusive for all their students as a fundamental principle of equality.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nonsense. Children's world's are only limited by their imagination. They have plenty of other influences in the world around them and that's why you have so many posters here who want to protect their children from the influence of religion and religious indoctrination. Had you no books to read as a child? Nothing to fuel your imagination? It's not unusual at all that children will express what sounds like faith, or what sounds like beliefs, because they're still making sense of the world around them.

From the moment we're born, we're asking questions and looking to make sense of the world around us. Therefore it's both silly and pointless to identify new-born babies as atheist as much as they are theist. They are non-religious. Secondly, the desire to make sense of the world around us absolutely comes naturally, and religion is one of the ways in which we make sense of the world.

Toddlers don't have 'desire to make sense of the world around them'. They have desire to eat, sleep and have cuddles.

You can call it atheist or non-religious, it doesn't really matter to me. Babies don't have religion. They learn it from their parents. If they are reading books, the parents bought the books. If they are watching TV, the parents are choosing the channels.

otpmb

RainyDay wrote: »

OK, so here's my expectations from a public service funded from taxpayers money;

1) School runs in school hours. If most kids are going to Mass, one teacher stays behind with the non-Catholic kids. Is that too much to ask?

2) The school concert is designed to be inclusive. Add one or two non-religious songs to the start or end of the show so that everybody can take part. Is that too much to ask?

3) The school celebration for Communion and Confirmation is inclusive. Everybody in the class is invited along with their parents to share in the celebration. Is that too much to ask?

So on these particular issues of discrimination, I'm not looking for constitutional change or changes to the patronage model. Just a slightly different way of thinking - an inclusive approach - is that really too much to ask.

All of those things happened in my primary school and still happen today. It was a small R.C school, with maybe 5 non-catholics, when I attended. So definitely possible RainyDay

kylith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

, I can see how it would indeed be too much to ask of the school, but would it be too much to ask of parents? It doesn't appear unreasonable IMO to ask that a parent bring their child to school an hour later.

Are you for real? Try calling your boss and telling them that you'll be an hour late for work because you have to bring your child to school later, or that you'll be leaving early for a few months because you have to pick them up because the rest of the class is doing communion, and that no, you won't be able to stay later or come in earlier to make up the work because the school is starting and ending at the same time. You'll soon be up on performance review and/or looking for a new job.

kylith wrote: »

Are you for real? Try calling your boss and telling them that you'll be an hour late for work because you have to bring your child to school later, or that you'll be leaving early for a few months because you have to pick them up because the rest of the class is doing communion, and that no, you won't be able to stay later or come in earlier to make up the work because the school is starting and ending at the same time. You'll soon be up on performance review and/or looking for a new job.

If that's the way they treat you wherever you work, then I would suggest looking for a new job anyway, because I've never experienced anything like that.

Any time I had work late or wasn't able to drop my child off to school, I made alternative arrangements with other parents. It's not the logistics nightmare you think it is in all honesty. That's why I asked RainyDay did they have a chat with the other parents.

It seems a very individual experience tbh and there are obviously a whole set of circumstances at play there, possibly a personality clash with the Principal, it's impossible to say really.

otpmb wrote: »

All of those things happened in my primary school and still happen today. It was a small R.C school, with maybe 5 non-catholics, when I attended. So definitely possible RainyDay

Absolutely - very possible, very feasible - no funding issues, minor resource issues - just a different way of thinking really.

But it should be the default way of thinking.

RainyDay wrote: »

Toddlers don't have 'desire to make sense of the world around them'. They have desire to eat, sleep and have cuddles.

RainyDay wrote: »

I've never seen a toddler take an interest in anything that they don't get from their parents (or possibly other significant adult like a child minder), because that is simply their world. They don't have other influences. It is literally incredible to suggest that a child developed a faith on their own.

We're all born atheist, and faith is taught or otherwise imparted by adults. That's why the churches put huge emphasis on teaching faith. It doesn't come naturally.

I suspect you're using a very narrow definition of faith and of a few other words too. Faith doesn't have to be a belief in the God that tends to be portrayed in Christianity. A child can look at nature and see God. And I use God in it's broadest terms.

I have absolutely no problem accepting that a child can develop a faith. I've seen it...

And a growing body of research backs it up..

"n the last few years, there has been an emerging body of research exploring children's grasp of certain universal religious ideas. Some recent findings suggest that two foundational aspects of religious belief -- belief in divine agents, and belief in mind-body dualism -- come naturally to young children."

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/08/more_studies_sh088551.html

recedite wrote: »

All your posts are from the point of view of someone who wants their child to attend a CoI school, which is easy at primary level and slightly less easy at secondary.
You have no empathy or consideration for those who see CoI as no better than RC.

What if the positions of CoI and Islam were reversed in this country? Your options of getting access to a CoI school would be severely limited (only 2 schools in existence)
You would know exactly what to expect in both the RC school and the Islamic school. Which would you choose, and why?
Is knowing what to expect going to make you satisfied that the choice available is a fair choice?

I agree with you that the current system is unfair. But I don't agree that we should switch to another unfair system just to keep atheists or any other minority happy.

We also have to accept the reality that life isn't always fair. Someone somewhere will always feel hard done by.

We have differing opinions on how this should be resolved and that's OK. I'm happy you have an opposing view because we get to challenge each other and that usually makes for a better and fairer solution.

But no matter what you do, it will never be 100% fair for all. We have to accept that and work on that basis. Anything else is just unrealistic.

Swanner wrote: »

I suspect you're using a very narrow definition of faith and of a few other words too. Faith doesn't have to be a belief in the God that tends to be portrayed in Christianity. A child can look at nature and see God. And I use God in it's broadest terms.

I have absolutely no problem accepting that a child can develop a faith. I've seen it...

And a growing body of research backs it up..

"n the last few years, there has been an emerging body of research exploring children's grasp of certain universal religious ideas. Some recent findings suggest that two foundational aspects of religious belief -- belief in divine agents, and belief in mind-body dualism -- come naturally to young children."

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/08/more_studies_sh088551.html

A child has no concept of God unless they are told about it. It's not like a dog or a chair or a cat. They can't see a god, so they have no concept unless they are told.

The evidence in that paper is, by their own admission, scanty at best

But the evidence here is still, admittedly, scanty.

RainyDay wrote: »

A child has no concept of God unless they are told about it. It's not like a dog or a chair or a cat. They can't see a god, so they have no concept unless they are told.

The evidence in that paper is, by their own admission, scanty at best

.

"Children have no concept of imaginary friends"...

Righto

RainyDay wrote: »

A child has no concept of God unless they are told about it. It's not like a dog or a chair or a cat. They can't see a god, so they have no concept unless they are told.

The evidence in that paper is, by their own admission, scanty at best

That's one brazen out of context quote.

If you've actually read the article it'll have given you food for thought if nothing more.

"We see, then, multiple studies converging on a single conclusion: the innate predisposition of the human mind to believe that there is some kind of an intelligent creator God. Perhaps as we get older we may override this programming, but our fundamental constitution appears oriented to religious belief.

If you're an evolutionary atheist, don't you find this just a bit peculiar? Darwinian explanations abound, of course, but they have the tinny, desperate sound of inadequate rationalizations."

Pherekydes

Swanner wrote: »

If you're an evolutionary atheist, don't you find this just a bit peculiar? Darwinian explanations abound, of course, but they have the tinny, desperate sound of inadequate rationalizations."

What's an evolutionary atheist? Are there atheists who believe in intelligent design?

Akrasia

Humans are fundamentally agency seeking. If we hear a bang, we immediately think that some'one' (human or animal) caused the bang and only later consider that it might have been the wind or a loose screw on a shelf.

It's a survival mechanism. Presuming danger from predators or people out to do you harm is better for survival than presuming benign causes for unusual events in your surroundings

The fact that it's innate or that it's natural doesn't mean we should pander to it in education.

It's innate and natural for a bigger kid to take the toys from a smaller child. We educate our children in the benefits of cooperation and sharing of resources and we use reinforcement to alter the behaviours that are anti-social and try to get kids to play nicer with one another.

Human civilisation has reached a point where there is a chance that we will either harness the full power of our environment and reach a whole new level of technological and social beings, or we could destroy ourselves in a myriad of parochial disagreements on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

Pherekydes wrote: »

What's an evolutionary atheist? Are there atheists who believe in intelligent design?

You would be best asking one.

Akrasia wrote: »

The fact that it's innate or that it's natural doesn't mean we should pander to it in education.

I agree with most of what you say but not so sure about this...

We probably shouldn't pander to anything but surely education should always be cognizant of the innate and the natural when dealing with young minds.

Tasden

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If that's the way they treat you wherever you work, then I would suggest looking for a new job anyway, because I've never experienced anything like that.

Any time I had work late or wasn't able to drop my child off to school, I made alternative arrangements with other parents. It's not the logistics nightmare you think it is in all honesty. That's why I asked RainyDay did they have a chat with the other parents.

It seems a very individual experience tbh and there are obviously a whole set of circumstances at play there, possibly a personality clash with the Principal, it's impossible to say really.

People can't just decide to up and leave a job.

Not everybody knows other parents at the school. I literally drop and run, I don't hang around at the school gates to chat with parents and get to know them. Well, now I don't even go to the school, I drop to the creche and run.
The only reason I even have other parents' phone numbers is for arranging birthday parties etc. I could never ring them up and ask them to mind my child for me. Anyway, most of those I would know on a first name basis are working parents themselves and their kids attend a creche before and after school. Some people may be involved in the school and know other parents and have time to go and meet people etc but many parents don't and wouldn't be able to make those kind of arrangements when needed. And they shouldn't have to tbh.

Pherekydes

Swanner wrote: »

You would be best asking one.

You used the term 'evolutionary atheist'. What's your definition?