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Alternative design for Irish Postcode.

geographer52

MOD: See post 15

I have been watching this board for many years and have not felt able to comment, the reason for this was I was party to the bidding process, the group I was bidding with pulled out because we felt that the code structure mandated by DCENR was sub-optimal and hard to justify. In particular I felt that it was a missed opportunity to create the worlds best geo-coding system.

So how would I know? In the 1980's I ran the UK postcode system and I know what was done wrong in that design and implementation, since that time I have worked with standards bodies allover the world to help people to create and use addresses.

So what would a good Postcode System look like in Eire?

The first two Characters would match the car county code.

Then two numbers would match each significant Townland
(some Townlands are too small to be included and I know there would be rows and endless discussion, but the current code ignores Irish Geography and History so this would be better despite any inadequacy)

This would be followed by a second part, mixed alpha numeric that identified one side of a single road between junctions (Americans would call this a block face), a code would exist for every block face even if no properties existed on it.

A third part not general used would be a two character alpha numeric that identified a property on a block face. This would satisfy DNCER's requirement of identifying properties.

This code would be universal allowing a satnav to find every street segment in Eire, would allow geo-demographic analysis like the UK and Canadian codes. (As an aside the politicians who suggested that this kind of code generates a "postcode lottery" are confusing cause with effect, it allows government and citizen to see where there is existing inequality)

We tested this code against the whole road network in Eire and found that it was capable of recording all existing block faces and in the worst case allowed for 100% expansion , given that these would be new roads not properties it is difficult to envisage the circumstance in the next 50 years that would cause re-coding to be needed.

Finally it seems to me to be completely bizarre that this data and associated addresses are being sold at such a high price, the UK model. When the national benefit from free availability would be much greater, but then politicians the world over like to screw the last penny out of citizens.

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hans aus dtschl

You're probably arguing the same point as me here marmurr1916.

I'm saying it should be easy to see at a glance what area is V92 etc. It's why I "ashamedly" included myself in the list of people who find the current system cumbersome: I again go to that Eircode finder website, and get the entire string at once.

As I said, you're arguing "how hard can it be..." "people remember their social security number..." etc.
I fully agree, and I said I remember all my other codes too. But I don't remember my postcode. And most people I know don't remember their postcode.
And at some point people will stop saying "how bloody hard is it!" "stupid culchies!" etc and start asking why people don't remember it.

More visual cues would help encourage usage.
I suggested a simple quick-browse JPG on the Eircode finder website, showing the overall grid.
I suggested compulsory use of the system.
I'll now add that they should perhaps have had the Eircode grid itself showing "V92" etc sent to peoples homes with the original letter.
You suggested "how difficult can it be to remember". Honest question: do you have a vested interest?

Again, to my point, I believe that some criticism of the system is warranted, despite very valid technical rebuttal. And I believe that Eircode now need to do more to encourage usage.

larchill

The main issue with the routing code is the scattering of the lettering sequence. There such be at least some 'logic' or pattern. An example is the STD numbering system we have: 01 is Dublin, 04 is the east coast outside of Dublin. Of greater significance is that within 04, there's a pattern: 041: Drogheda, 042: Dundalk, 046: Navan, etc. This is the case with the other STD codes as well with 02, 05, 06, 09, etc having well laid out schemes. The 'oul eircode I'm afraid has failed here. Surely a better approach would have been to use the existing County designations used on vehicle reg nos? eg: LH1 = Drogheda, LH2 = Dundalk, LH3 = Ardee with LH4 to LH9 available for other areas in the county - it's a small county! Cork is a large county (our largest!) & uses C - 1 letter. This allows for C01 - C99 99 possibilities! You could easily cover all the towns in Cork. Say C01 - C05 for Cork city, with C06 to C99 available for everywhere else (Mallow, Mitchelstown, Youghal, ...), there'd be more than enough! The Routing code was an opportunity wasted - it could've been so much more. Numsculls - a waste of €38m!

D.L.R.

larchill wrote: »

The main issue with the routing code is the scattering of the lettering sequence. There such be at least some 'logic' or pattern. An example is the STD numbering system we have: 01 is Dublin, 04 is the east coast outside of Dublin. Of greater significance is that within 04, there's a pattern: 041: Drogheda, 042: Dundalk, 046: Navan, etc. This is the case with the other STD codes as well with 02, 05, 06, 09, etc having well laid out schemes. The 'oul eircode I'm afraid has failed here. Surely a better approach would have been to use the existing County designations used on vehicle reg nos? eg: LH1 = Drogheda, LH2 = Dundalk, LH3 = Ardee with LH4 to LH9 available for other areas in the county - it's a small county! Cork is a large county (our largest!) & uses C - 1 letter. This allows for C01 - C99 99 possibilities! You could easily cover all the towns in Cork. Say C01 - C05 for Cork city, with C06 to C99 available for everywhere else (Mallow, Mitchelstown, Youghal, ...), there'd be more than enough! The Routing code was an opportunity wasted - it could've been so much more. Numsculls - a waste of €38m!

Scattered letters, and scattered meaningless numbers. Largely thanks to Fianna Fails language act of 2003 ensuring no county abbreviations could be used like they are on cars. That'd be far too handy wouldn't it! Wouldn't want to upset Caoilínn and Donnfhlaidh out in Connemara would we.

You'd think in that case a numbers-only system would be easiest then? NOPE! Lets have completely meaningless letters and codes as if we're all binary addresses on some hard drive and not rational human beings.

So what we're left with is another poorly designed, costly, half-baked system courtesy of the Irish state.

Yee-haw y'all!

hans aus dtschl

D.L.R. wrote: »

Largely thanks to Fianna Fails language act of 2003 ensuring no county abbreviations could be used like they are on cars. That'd be far too handy wouldn't it!

Could you explain what you mean here a little more, please D.L.R?

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we stop this thread being a knock Eircode thread.

Eircode is what it is. This thread is to discuss better designs that should could have been chosen. Also this is not a thread about Loc8 as that has been done to death already.

.

hans aus dtschl

Apologies, with that in mind, I'll add mine to the list of opinions that "Phone code/county letters" could have been better than the letters/numbers chosen at the start of the string.

And I'll add that the Eircode Finder website is a little bit clunky and slow and should have an easy-look-up as I mentioned previously. Just a static image would do.

D.L.R.

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Could you explain what you mean here a little more, please D.L.R?

The official language act 2003 made it illegal for English to be more prominent than Irish.

So county codes for eircode is not possible with these new language laws.

larchill

Bl00dy stupid, typical Paddywhackery :mad: God knows what car reg system we'd end up with if it were done today!

Sam Russell

larchill wrote: »

Bl00dy stupid, typical Paddywhackery :mad: God knows what car reg system we'd end up with if it were done today!

Off topic, but the car reg question was answered by having the full county name as Gaelege written on the top of the plate. The first and last letter of the county name in English was then used as the identifier following the year of first registration.

To use the proposed system in post #1, the first and last letter of the county could be considered a coincidence.

However, a purely numeric system would be better, but may require a few more characters, unless the need to identify every address was dropped. Switzerland manages with just 4 digits, but they tend to be good at everything.

D.L.R.

A neat solution would have been to give each address a provincial prefix - L, M, C or U. So including the existing D codes, there'd be 5 postal 'zones'.

Each province begins with the same letter in both languages, so nobody needs to throw a strop. It create a memorable and simple system grounded in Irish geography.

Much better than the random disjointed system we've been lumbered with.

gctest50

larchill wrote: »

Bl00dy stupid, typical Paddywhackery :mad: God knows what car reg system we'd end up with if it were done today!

That's the next thing to sort

In Illinois, license plates belong to an owner, not the vehicle

Therefore, you cannot transfer ownership of license plates when you sell a car or transfer a title. You can only transfer license plates to another vehicle you own.

and many more places i'm sure

usernamegoes

oscarBravo wrote: »

Which you can, unless you need to access more than 15 per day, at which point it's hard to argue that your requirements don't justify paying for the information.

I'm not overly against the Eircode as it stands but I would disagree with your point above.

I can imagine say a small non-profit website that say want to tell you who your TDs are and how they voted on a certain issue or how much expenses they claimed. Asking you for your Eircode and showing you the info. Without this you'll need to know your constituency and with the new ones next election many people will need to learn what their new one is.

If they want Eircode to be adopted more broadly it'll need to allow people to use it for stuff like I have just described.

Sam Russell

Mod: This thread is about alternatives to Eircode.

marmurr1916

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: This thread is about alternatives to Eircode.

How's that working out? :P

BoatMad

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: This thread is about alternatives to Eircode.

Reading it , confirms no alternative , so thread is moot

Most of the arguments are based around making it easier to " understand "

My eircode is a 6 digit number , I easily remember it and write it daily on my address

Sam Russell

BoatMad wrote: »

Reading it , confirms no alternative , so thread is moot

Most of the arguments are based around making it easier to " understand "

My eircode is a 6 digit number , I easily remember it and write it daily on my address

My Eircode is a seven character code. If yours is only six numbers then either you cannot remember it or you have a special one.

Mod: Despite warnings this is another Eircode thread that has gone nowhere.

Thread closed.