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Why don't TG4 use second audio stream in English ?

Strawberry HillBilly

I know TG4 are the Gaelige champion station but I think they are missing a trick and audiences by not have second audio feed in English for the likes of GAA and Rugbai Beo.

Surely they would get bigger audiences and advertising by giving the choice, even if the default commentary is still as Gaelige.

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Elmo

beauf wrote: »

Isnt the point to promote Irish?

Is their income related to how much Irish content they broadcast? Grants or licence fee % etc.

I don't think so. They provide the government with a type of charter every 4 years which the minister agrees to, currently they have to re-submit their charter was the BAI and Department thought it unrealistic.

Providing an English audio feed wouldn't diminish their Irish content in any case, as they also provide an Irish feed.

They could pick up the English feed from the local radio station, that would be of public benifit? First half from Radio Kerry, Second half from C106!

Melodeon

TG4 would be my channel of absolute last resort for the rugby.
I'd only watch it if there was no alternative of any sort available; even when the Welsh and Scottish Gaelic channels don't have a Red Button alternative audio stream, they would get preference as they still do a fair smattering of English in their 'first language' commentary.

Rugby channel selection priority list:
English commentary > Red Button alternative audio stream > first language commentary with some English > TG4.

PeterDuggan

Strawberry HillBilly wrote: »

I know TG4 are the Gaelige champion station but I think they are missing a trick and audiences by not have second audio feed in English.

Good idea and better still if they'd just drop that Irish nonsense.

lertsnim

PeterDuggan wrote: »

Good idea and better still if they'd just drop that Irish nonsense.

Yeah damn those people who like something you don't.

PeterDuggan

lertsnim wrote: »

Yeah damn those people who like something you don't.

Have I stirred the gomaile brigade? :-)

icdg

The status or otherwise of the Irish langauge is not a matter for discussion here

Mallagio

icdg wrote: »

The status or otherwise of the Irish langauge is not a matter for discussion here

You must be one of the biggest plonkers ever to mod. Bold writing and an ego to match a copper..... I'd say you'd love to be a copper, wouldn't ya?

"we don't bring up old threads"...... - Thats cheese.

Noticeable you don't actually bring anything to a thread worth reading, it's either I'm the boss here and say no more, you're banned or "we don't bring up old threads"

All hot air and bull.

icdg

Two week ban. Bold writing for moderation is now accepted practice across Boards.ie and the dragging up old threads rule is something we've been enforcing for fifteen years.

Next ban is permanent

(edit) I note you closed your account straight after posting this. If you ever reopen it your two week ban will start from your first post after reopening.

STB.

icdg wrote: »

The status or otherwise of the Irish langauge is not a matter for discussion here

TG4 is the public service broadcaster for Irish-language speakers.

Doing away with the Irish language in that context was a trolling remark, in my opinion.

Anyhow. Why dont they do an alternative language stream. Well I guess the long and short of it is, beside the obvious prurpose of its remit is that it would cost more money. Also they have in the past held only Irish Language broadcasting rights in the broadcasting of sports events, Rugby springs to mind.

afatbollix

It would cost nothing to set up. Sky would be able to offer it very easily with equipment all ready installed. (Currently where I work send 6 channels of audio to sky)

Do TG4 want to bring it in is another question.

An Ciarraioch

afatbollix wrote: »

It would cost nothing to set up. Sky would be able to offer it very easily with equipment all ready installed. (Currently where I work send 6 channels of audio to sky)

Do TG4 want to bring it in is another question.

I figure the main consideration here, as for the GAA coverage, is whether they consider 100-150k to be their maximum audience in any event. Of course, you can't disprove a null argument, but presumably they feel their reach can't be improved.

OldRio

afatbollix wrote: »

It would cost nothing to set up. Sky would be able to offer it very easily with equipment all ready installed. (Currently where I work send 6 channels of audio to sky)

Do TG4 want to bring it in is another question.

To be honest if TG4 wanted to add another stream, I would prefer it to be done via Saorview. Paying a subscription to Sky to watch Irish TV? Makes no sense.

icdg

But some people do, and they are licence fee/taxpayers too. Do they deserve to be punished with a lesser service for their licence fee/taxes for having taken up Sky. Whatever about TV3 & UTV, RTE and TG4 have a duty to be platform neutral wherever possible. Of course the reality is that due to the unsustainable pricing structure adopted for Saorview, companies other than RTE (who ultimately get their money back) are finding it uneconomic to launch new services on it.

Sam Russell

icdg wrote: »

But some people do, and they are licence fee/taxpayers too. Do they deserve to be punished with a lesser service for their licence fee/taxes for having taken up Sky. Whatever about TV3 & UTV, RTE and TG4 have a duty to be platform neutral wherever possible. Of course the reality is that due to the unsustainable pricing structure adopted for Saorview, companies other than RTE (who ultimately get their money back) are finding it uneconomic to launch new services on it.

The problem with Saorview is a political problem which the Minister is part of - and is unwilling to do anything about.

Saorview should be the paramount platform for broadcasting in Ireland, and it should be part of the terms of broadcasting in Ireland that Saorview is used for broadcasting by those licensed, and the services must appear on it - including HD, and plus 1 services. OTV, TV3 + 1 etc should all be required to appear on Saorview if they appear on another platform.

As for pricing, this is all to do with restricting RTE and its use of two of its four Saorview channels - preventing it from getting advertising revenue. The worst type of political interference with our nation broadcaster.

icdg

Sam Russell wrote: »

Saorview should be the paramount platform for broadcasting in Ireland, and it should be part of the terms of broadcasting in Ireland that Saorview is used for broadcasting by those licensed, and the services must appear on it - including HD, and plus 1 services. OTV, TV3 + 1 etc should all be required to appear on Saorview if they appear on another platform.

.

The reality is that would mean the closure of Oireactas TV, TG4 HD, TV3+1 and Setanta Ireland and the mean the end of Irish programming on Setanta Sports 1. But we are going off topic here.

Sam Russell

No, it would mean changing the way Saorview is allowed to charge and would help all channels operate on Saorview. Currently TG4 want to go HD but cannot because of the charging structure.

Machinehead

I've been on to TG4 re dual commentary on various programmes especially in connection with their sports output.
This was the response:
"Go raibh maith agat. Thanks for your feedback. We do try to make our sports (and other output) as accessible as we can to those not fluent in Irish. Live coverage poses a particular challenge and while we are piloting live translated subtitles - but this is tricky as the action in all the sports we cover far outstrip the human capacity to describe them and translate.
I do appreciate that other Celtic broadcasters offer a dual-language option for commentary. There are technical constraints on TG4's ability to do so but I'd also have to say that for rugby, our clock, ref-link inserts and graphics as well as pre and post-match interviews as aimed at making the offering as accessible as we can. We are an Irish language channel. That is our USP. From the outset all of our sports commentary - GAA, racing, cycling, horse-racing etc has been in Irish. We need to be careful not be be accused by our competitors of duping by using funding allocated to us for Irish language purposes to buy sports rights and then offer coverage in another language (something that our competitors could have done)."

Elmo

Machinehead wrote: »

"...We need to be careful not be be accused by our competitors of duping by using funding allocated to us for Irish language purposes to buy sports rights and then offer coverage in another language (something that our competitors could have done)."

No doubt when it was brought up in the Dail at a committee in 2010 TV3 quickly wrote to FG, TG4 and the Minister for communications with that line.

Of course TG4 competitor could always have bought the rights to those sporting event, I doubt that TG4 ever had any competition for those sports rights. Setanta being the exception and each time setanta has bought those rights.

Strawberry HillBilly

@Elmo, do you have link to Dail committee proceedings in 2010. If TG4 continued to offer the sports in Irish but with English as an additional "red button" option this would surely circumvent any competitors argument.

Elmo

Strawberry HillBilly wrote: »

@Elmo, do you have link to Dail committee proceedings in 2010. If TG4 continued to offer the sports in Irish but with English as an additional "red button" option this would surely circumvent any competitors argument.

I think the question was asked by Brian Hayes in 2010 just towards the end of the last government. I did a quick search I couldn't find it I will try again later.

The position at the time was that TG4 were looking into it. AFAIR

OldRio

icdg wrote: »

But some people do, and they are licence fee/taxpayers too. Do they deserve to be punished with a lesser service for their licence fee/taxes for having taken up Sky. Whatever about TV3 & UTV, RTE and TG4 have a duty to be platform neutral wherever possible. Of course the reality is that due to the unsustainable pricing structure adopted for Saorview, companies other than RTE (who ultimately get their money back) are finding it uneconomic to launch new services on it.

So by this logic people who don't subscribe to view Irish broadcasters should be 'punished'. Ludicrous IMHO.

If TG4 offer a second audio stream it should be done for all viewers.
If Sky offer a second audio stream of TG4, obviously it will be for their subscribers.

Elmo

OldRio wrote: »

So by this logic people who don't subscribe to view Irish broadcasters should be 'punished'. Ludicrous IMHO.

If TG4 offer a second audio stream it should be done for all viewers.
If Sky offer a second audio stream of TG4, obviously it will be for their subscribers.

I think that is what icdg is saying, if TG4 offer AD or HD etc it should be platform neutral

gaiscioch

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem with Saorview is a political problem which the Minister is part of - and is unwilling to do anything about.

Saorview should be the paramount platform for broadcasting in Ireland, and it should be part of the terms of broadcasting in Ireland that Saorview is used for broadcasting by those licensed, and the services must appear on it - including HD, and plus 1 services. OTV, TV3 + 1 etc should all be required to appear on Saorview if they appear on another platform.

I'm totally ignorant of this so what exactly are you alluding to in the bold part? Why, if it should be the paramount platform, is the government not making it so? Thanks.

Sam Russell

gaiscioch wrote: »

I'm totally ignorant of this so what exactly are you alluding to in the bold part? Why, if it should be the paramount platform, is the government not making it so? Thanks.

That is the political problem. The current Minister (White) and his predecessor (Rabbitte) were silent on the matter.

At the death of the rump FF Government, Pat Carey, temporary Minister in charge of this disaster, signed a SI that prevented a proper running of Saorview by preventing RTE from getting any revenue from two of its four Saorview channels. Comreg allowed TV3 to force 2RN (then RTENL) to charge for bandwidth used as the only mechanism for Saorview transmission. This had the effect of increasing the charge for HD to a level no operator was prepared to pay - but the joke is they have to pay it anyway because 2RN are guaranteed €12m a year for their troubles if they run two muxes, which they do. The charges are divvied out among the operators according to the use of bandwidth.

Now if it was a requirement that any service offered by any licensed broadcaster had to be offered (and paid for) on saorview as it is the nation platform, then Saorview would have OTV, TG4HD, TV3 +1, and when HD comes to TV3 and UTV, this too would be on Saorview. If it all fits on two muxes, the same charges would still apply but would be shared differently.

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

At the death of the rump FF Government, Pat Carey, temporary Minister in charge of this disaster, signed a SI that prevented a proper running of Saorview by preventing RTE from getting any revenue from two of its four Saorview channels.

One thing to say about Pat Carey is at least he made a decision and allowed the channels begin airing. IMO looking at what Rabbitte did and what White is doing, RTÉ NN, RTÉjr and RTÉONE +1 wouldn't exist, not because of a bad decision by either minister but due to lack of action.

RTÉjr, the Broadcasting Charge and TG4 HD are all good examples. (Though TG4HD goes back futher).

TAFKAlawhec

Any OB feeds for sports events that TG4 are covering that I normally find have at least two audio circuits, the main Irish language audio and a non-commentary audio track. I presume that the latter is in place for later editing for highlights etc.

It would be technically possible for a second audio track to be implemented for TG4 on DTT but it comes with a small cost of data rate for the video stream.

For the poster who mentioned that the pictures from S4C and BBC Alba look better than those on TG4 for Saorview - I'm pretty sure that S4C & BBC Alba use a full D1 SD resolution of 704/720 x 576 pixels whereas TG4 on Saorview is 544 x 576, meaning the latter's picture will look a bit softer. Interestingly, TG4's picture resolution on the Mini Multiplex in Northern Ireland is 720 x 576 pixels and is notably sharper than that broadcast on Saorview in my experience - you certainly notice it on on-screen captions and sport scoreboards that provide high contrasts.

MentalMario

Strawberry HillBilly wrote: »

@Tedddy don't agree with your point re:GAA viewers are used to it. Case in point last Sunday, struggled to watch the KK v CE match until I synced up Clare FM as the audio but didn't bother to even try the same with the Waterford match afterwards.

I definitely think TG4 would increase audiences and advertising by implementing this option.

As a means to measure the willingness for viewers to select audio as English or Irish where both were available has anyone got any idea on the match viewing figures when TV3/3E simulcasted All Ireland minor final matches in English /Irish ?

How did you do this? Tippfm, KCLRfm and WLRfm are always out of sync with TG4.

Strawberry HillBilly

Paused the TV picture until the online Clare FM commentary caught up&#55357;&#56859;

Melodeon

The few times I've tried using a radio commentary with the TG4 video, the audio has always been running ahead of the video, making it impossible (with the equipment I have: Saorview/SKY box/FM radio) to synchronise them satisfactorily

STB.

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

Any OB feeds for sports events that TG4 are covering that I normally find have at least two audio circuits, the main Irish language audio and a non-commentary audio track. I presume that the latter is in place for later editing for highlights etc.

It would be technically possible for a second audio track to be implemented for TG4 on DTT but it comes with a small cost of data rate for the video stream.

For the poster who mentioned that the pictures from S4C and BBC Alba look better than those on TG4 for Saorview - I'm pretty sure that S4C & BBC Alba use a full D1 SD resolution of 704/720 x 576 pixels whereas TG4 on Saorview is 544 x 576, meaning the latter's picture will look a bit softer. Interestingly, TG4's picture resolution on the Mini Multiplex in Northern Ireland is 720 x 576 pixels and is notably sharper than that broadcast on Saorview in my experience - you certainly notice it on on-screen captions and sport scoreboards that provide high contrasts.

The reason why the audio feeds are seperate is because other broadcasters use them too. One is just the crowd noise (taken from the sideline).

On the days that Tg4 are broadcasting live they are mixing both sources live. RTE do the audio mix afterwards for the highlights. Infact you can hear this on the days that RTE are not broadcasting live but are using Digisat uplink services as the RTE commentator who does the whole game live is using one audio stream and the other is just the crowd. There is seperate feeds one clean/one live with captions on two different TPs.

Regarding the video encoding, the clean/raw feeds are 1920x1080 from those Ericsson MPEG4 Encoders (see the screencap of the National League game, which is from the off air feed for RTE). What it is broadcast in after that is up to limitations of the output parameters of the platform, I would imagine.

BTW TG4's video feeds arent actually viewable by generic receivers as its not just 4:2:2 that they are using.

(for those looking for the GAA english language feeds, they are regularly reported on this thread. They are on 23.5E.