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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1

MrJones1973

Highjacking OP's post for ....

Mod Gentle Warning

OK folks, It looks like this is going to be 'The strike-thread', so for the proposes of civility I'd ask that we just try to keep the title in mind to focus the debate as a lot of 'kitchen sinks' are going to get thrown around.

We've done the circular blame game of young vs' old teachers to death on here so I think the time is appropriate to move on.

Also the circular argument of ASTI vs TUI/INTO.

Also management vs' teachers.

These can muddy the waters of the substantive issue of the proposed JCSA and the strike action.

As usual...

Read charter (there will be a test for the boldies).
Report stuff ... or use the ignore function for people who annoy you.
It's an open forum so think of it as an oppertunity to challenge and change some peoples' views.

MOD

Are most voting? What way? No real talks have occurred with Minister because of ballot. JMB has suggested we go back to 2011 NCCA proposals-though their timing for this suggestion (during a ballot) is seen as poor.
Bottom line folks unless you are prepared to go out for a few strike days-you're screwed. That's my view-all that's being suggested so far is a few Temporary A posts to help bring it in. Jan also says "Its not about money"

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mirrorwall14

2011abc wrote: »

...can't hold it back anymore ....

Man I resisted so hard not to post that....

katydid

acequion wrote: »

"A bit" of pressure! Do you not understand that second level teachers are under constant pressure?

Of course I do. Just like I am. And the pressure on me is from students I see every day, adults whose future depends on grades they get from my corrections of their work.

Pressure is part of the job. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't be teaching.

Inspector Coptoor

katydid wrote: »

Of course I do. Just like I am. And the pressure on me is from students I see every day, adults whose future depends on grades they get from my corrections of their work.

Pressure is part of the job. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't be teaching.

I've no problem with pressure from Marking papers, which I do for the SEC as an anonymous marker.
When marking, you are giving a grade and ticking and underlining, that's it, as you have a very tight marking scheme to follow.

Correcting the work of a student you personally teach is very different, you are not just grading, you are correcting mistakes and annotating as you are on the students' side.

And THIS is why th VAST majority of teachers (and parents) are against teachers marking for state certification.

katydid

acequion wrote: »

@katydid,does that not prove my point about your "bit" of pressure? Do you think we should have to endure yet more pressure from parents on top of all that? Just how much pressure can any one person take??

As soon as the parents realise there's no point in putting pressure on teachers, they will give up. You might have a period before it sinks in, but that goes with the territory. I have it every year for a couple of months every year with a new bunch of students until they realise that there's no point.

katydid

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Correcting the work of a student you personally teach is very different, you are not just grading, you are correcting mistakes and annotating as you are on the students' side.

.

Of course you are on the student's side, and you can correct and annotate so they can get feedback and learn from their mistakes, but that doesn't mean that you give them a higher mark! You give them the mark they deserve.

Inspector Coptoor

katydid wrote: »

Of course you are on the student's side, and you can correct and annotate so they can get feedback and learn from their mistakes, but that doesn't mean that you give them a higher mark! You give them the mark they deserve.

And I have no issue with that, AS LONG as it's NOT for state certification.

I've often given kids 89.5% or 79.5% and they've missed a grade boundary, when asked why I didn't bump them up, the answer is always, you didn't get the next grade, you got what you deserved.

I see where you are coming from, but that's not a bridge we are willing to cross.

katydid

2011abc wrote: »

Just for you Katy:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-17130934

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-22367914

Maybe you think a certain 'attrition rate' is acceptable ? How about the factories in China where workers throw themselves off the rooftops by the dozen? All over 'a bit of pressure'?

And why should you think that we should do what they do in the UK? There is huge pressure on schools over there to pass exams because their funding is dependent on results. I know teachers over there who finish projects for their students because their jobs depend on whether or not their students pass.

Our schools are no dependent on exams for funding and the day they are would be a disaster for Irish education.

As I've said all along, with the proper assessment procedures, proper support from the department in the form of external assessment and proper support from management, there is no reason that it should in any way be like the UK system.

Inspector Coptoor

But WHY should it happen at all?

katydid

acequion wrote: »

Shocking stuff! But there is no doubt that excessive pressure is extremely dangerous and many people cannot handle it.I,personally,could not handle excessive pressure. I need to feel calm and cope-worthy to do a good job and I chose teaching for the quality of life and a decent work /life balance. That is exactly what is being eroded with this insidious "bit of pressure" attitude and that is why we must hold firm in our present stance.

So you are incapable of devising an assessment system that is transparent, and that you can stand over in the face of questions from parents or even from students themselves?

katydid

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Currently CSPE projects get done in a rough draft in class, then the teacher collects up the rough draft, changes what needs to be changed, corrects them, gives them back and the kids copy/paste the corrected version into the official booklet.

New proposal stops the copy/paste bit

That is shocking to read. If CA does come in at second level, there is a hell of a a lot of training needed, and some reality checks to remind teachers what their role is. I'm sure most teachers are professionals, but people like that are a disgrace to their profession.

rainbowtrout

katydid wrote: »

And why should you think that we should do what they do in the UK? There is huge pressure on schools over there to pass exams because their funding is dependent on results. I know teachers over there who finish projects for their students because their jobs depend on whether or not their students pass.

Our schools are no dependent on exams for funding and the day they are would be a disaster for Irish education.

As I've said all along, with the proper assessment procedures, proper support from the department in the form of external assessment and proper support from management, there is no reason that it should in any way be like the UK system.

We might not be dependent on funding, but if there are two schools in the town and school A are consistently getting good results and school B are consistently getting poor to average results where do you think parents will want to send their children. School B might be assessing fairly and School A might be taking the piss and giving easy grades. That's not going to be clear to the outsider.

I've seen plenty of teachers over the years give out a rake of A grades to students who no more deserved an A than the dog on the street. Landing in a school to do assessment and being presented with 20+ A grades in a class of 24 is laughable when some of the students tell you they are doing Ordinary Level and clearly haven't a notion of what they are talking about. I've met teachers who have given full marks for a project because a student submitted a project - just for submission!! Nothing to do with the quality of what was presented.

I'd be very slow to let any of those teachers loose on correcting their own students work and giving the final grade when they won't grade properly even when they know they are being externally assessed.

If teachers end up grading their own students I expect project grades to skyrocket overnight, and effectively the final grade will be determined by the written exam which is where we are currently.

katydid

happywithlife wrote: »

I agree. Plenty will end up correcting the rough draft first AND then correcting the final document. So twice the work !

I don't correct rough drafts. I spend a couple of classes, while the students work on their projects or do other work, where I sit down with each student and point out where they are going wrong. It is up to the student to take the work away and improve it before final submission.

Giving them feedback as they go along is important, but you are not helping the student by correcting the work for them. The resulting mark is yours, not theirs, in that case.

katydid

spurious wrote: »

For TUI, the votes are sent straight to the auditors.

Well, our school rep collects them from members and posts them in bulk. If people want to, they can post them themselves, but most people find it handier to hand them back to the rep.

katydid

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

And I have no issue with that, AS LONG as it's NOT for state certification.

I've often given kids 89.5% or 79.5% and they've missed a grade boundary, when asked why I didn't bump them up, the answer is always, you didn't get the next grade, you got what you deserved.

I see where you are coming from, but that's not a bridge we are willing to cross.

What's the problem with it being for state certification? Why are you not prepared to stand over the mark you give? Your colleagues in FE do. FETAC grades are just as important to students as LC grades, if they are needed for third level.

katydid

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

But WHY should it happen at all?

Because giving those students who find end of year exams a chance is a good thing. That's why.

rainbowtrout

katydid wrote: »

What's the problem with it being for state certification? Why are you not prepared to stand over the mark you give? Your colleagues in FE do. FETAC grades are just as important to students as LC grades, if they are needed for third level.

There is external monitoring in FETAC and standardised marking schemes. It's a different beast. You're also not dealing with parents by and large. It's a one year course, often with a lot of students who are strangers, 17+ years of age. Students are told at the start that they are responsible for their own learning etc, students from 12-15 don't have that same capability and have a different relationship with their teachers.

rainbowtrout

katydid wrote: »

Because giving those students who find end of year exams a chance is a good thing. That's why.

And why can't all of these projects be corrected anonymously along with the JC papers? LCVP currently has a portfolio which is mainly typed documents but can also include a recorded interview. They are packed off for correction along with the written exams. Why can't JC be done like this? It's working for LCVP, so it' can't be too hard to adapt JC in the same way. The JC Science coursework is currently sent away with the written papers for correction. So it does seem to come back to cost saving by the DES.

katydid

rainbowtrout wrote: »

We might not be dependent on funding, but if there are two schools in the town and school A are consistently getting good results and school B are consistently getting poor to average results where do you think parents will want to send their children. School B might be assessing fairly and School A might be taking the piss and giving easy grades. That's not going to be clear to the outsider.

I've seen plenty of teachers over the years give out a rake of A grades to students who no more deserved an A than the dog on the street. Landing in a school to do assessment and being presented with 20+ A grades in a class of 24 is laughable when some of the students tell you they are doing Ordinary Level and clearly haven't a notion of what they are talking about. I've met teachers who have given full marks for a project because a student submitted a project - just for submission!! Nothing to do with the quality of what was presented.

I'd be very slow to let any of those teachers loose on correcting their own students work and giving the final grade when they won't grade properly even when they know they are being externally assessed.

If teachers end up grading their own students I expect project grades to skyrocket overnight, and effectively the final grade will be determined by the written exam which is where we are currently.

If the system is devised and carried out properly, externally moderated and supported by management, there is no reason why grades should differ substantially between schools.

If teachers grade their own students and grades rocket overnight, then serious questions would need to be asked of those teachers, as professional misconduct would have been going on. What you are saying is that there are lots of Irish teachers who are even now not doing their job properly.

Inspector Coptoor

katydid wrote: »

Because giving those students who find end of year exams a chance is a good thing. That's why.

Can't that be marked at the end of the exam period by the same marker who marks their terminal exam, like is currently done in Junior cert science?

Just to be clear, I'm all for continuous assessment, I just don't want to mark ANY of my own students' work, ever

katydid

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There is external monitoring in FETAC and standardised marking schemes. It's a different beast. You're also not dealing with parents by and large. It's a one year course, often with a lot of students who are strangers, 17+ years of age. Students are told at the start that they are responsible for their own learning etc, students from 12-15 don't have that same capability and have a different relationship with their teachers.

Why can't you have standarised marking schemes and external monitoring at second level?

Whether you're dealing with parents or students (if you're a teacher you know that students are not "strangers", no matter how long you work with them - you care about them and what they hope and aspire to) the bottom line is that if the assessment procedure is transparent and well moderated, there will be no pressure as soon as they (parents/students) realise there is no point in putting on pressure. It's that simple.

Just because students don't have a particular relationship with their teacher now doesn't mean they couldn't have in the future. I've worked in a system which operates CA, in Germany, and the students there have been doing CA since primary school. They know that their teachers will be grading them, and they just accept it. It's part of the teacher/pupil relationship.

katydid

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And why can't all of these projects be corrected anonymously along with the JC papers? LCVP currently has a portfolio which is mainly typed documents but can also include a recorded interview. They are packed off for correction along with the written exams. Why can't JC be done like this? It's working for LCVP, so it' can't be too hard to adapt JC in the same way. The JC Science coursework is currently sent away with the written papers for correction. So it does seem to come back to cost saving by the DES.

Projects can be corrected anonymously, but some forms of CA can't. Presentations or demonstrations, for example. Project work done in teams. Field work.

Inspector Coptoor

And that's all well and good

But this is not Germany

katydid

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm all for continuous assessment, I just don't want to mark ANY of my own students' work, ever

What are you afraid of? Are you not a professional?

katydid

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

And that's all well and good

But this is not Germany

So? Human beings are human beings.

r93kaey5p2izun

katydid wrote: »

What's the problem with it being for state certification? Why are you not prepared to stand over the mark you give? Your colleagues in FE do. FETAC grades are just as important to students as LC grades, if they are needed for third level.

And as already discussed FETAC grades are often not worth the paper they're written on. You've admitted as much yourself. You are confident in your own centre's practices but you know there are lots of centres that are not up to scratch. You know FETAC monitoring is not enough to maintain standards. So why would we want to bring this in for any other state exam?

If you don't understand how schools would benefit from increasing grades (enrollment and jobs being on the line) or how many individual teachers could be pressurised, not just by parents but by some management (their hours and insecure contracts being on the line), then you don't seem to understand the current state of second level education here.

Just about every teacher wants and supports meaningul CA. Why can't there be external assessment? The only reason is money saving.

Inspector Coptoor

katydid wrote: »

What are you afraid of? Are you not a professional?

I'm afraid of nothing, except of course possible drop in standards due to an ill thought out, money saving endeavour, the change in the role of the teacher and of course, the huge increase in workload

There's no need to call my professionalism into question because my opinion
Differs to yours

katydid

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

And as already discussed FETAC grades are often not worth the paper they're written on. You've admitted as much yourself. You are confident in your own centre's practices but you know there are lots of centres that are not up to scratch. You know FETAC monitoring is not enough to maintain standards. So why would we want to bring this in for any other state exam?

If you don't understand how schools would benefit from increasing grades (enrollment and jobs being on the line) or how many individual teachers could be pressurised, not just by parents but by some management (their hours and insecure contracts being on the line), then you don't seem to understand the current state of second level education here.

Just about every teacher wants and supports meaningul CA. Why can't there be external assessment? The only reason is money saving.

I have said that FETAC grades given by private providers, and not properly devised, assessed or moderated, are often not worth the paper they are written on. FETAC grades awarded by a properly funded, properly assessed and moderated system in Dept. of Education schools, operated by dedicated teachers who care for their students and for their professionalism are certainly worth what they state they are.

Of course I understand how schools can benefit from increased enrollment - my point is that, no more than the present system, if the new system is properly operated, there can be, WILL be, no difference between schools.

As for pressure from parents, I do understand it. I taught at second level for twelve years, three of them in the UK, where parents rule supreme. Pressure from hard pressed students desperate to get into third level could be as difficult, if you let it - you see these people every day, and have a relationship with them and want them to do well. But you don't let it, you just make it clear that the marks are not open to discussion, and that's the end of it.

katydid

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I'm afraid of nothing, except of course possible drop in standards due to an ill thought out, money saving endeavour, the change in the role of the teacher and of course, the huge increase in workload

There's no need to call my professionalism into question because my opinion
Differs to yours

But I genuinely don't understand why a teacher, a professional educator, can't trust themselves to be fair, objective and no susceptible to pressure. I'm not calling your professionalism into question, just reminding you that you are a professional.

If it is ill thought out, I agree with you that it will be a disaster, but that is what the teachers should be ensuring. Not that it doesn't happen, but that it happens properly, on the teachers' terms.

evolving_doors

having jumped both sides of the fence on teacher assessment/certification I'm now of the view that it is the thin end of the wedge.

We need to look at the broader intention of those in positions of influence (which is never the minister from what I can see).

1. Teacher assessment/certification. There is an agenda to bring this in. For Education reasons ... maybe, but by the way its being rammed through its obvious it has little to do with 'best practice'. Just talk to any english teacher who never got any clear answers from the 'inservice'. (Compare that to the gradual phasing in of project maths!).

2. It is a fact that this government want all individual school results published.

3. It is a fact that the inspectorate want performance reviews for all teachers and principals.

4. The new assessment director of the NCCA wants to impliment the Scottish system of recording all the assessment that is to take place for the junior cert. (... alluded to in the Travers document as the ASS (i kid you not)).

5. The last piece of the jigsaw is the moving over of the increment system to a performance review by your senior peers at work.... anyone take any notice of the new 'mentoring system' currently being piloted?

No, no not like the UK at all is it? (cough cough cofsted!)

Look at the broader picture first.

Inspector Coptoor

katydid wrote: »

But I genuinely don't understand why a teacher, a professional educator, can't trust themselves to be fair, objective and no susceptible to pressure. I'm not calling your professionalism into question, just reminding you that you are a professional.

If it is ill thought out, I agree with you that it will be a disaster, but that is what the teachers should be ensuring. Not that it doesn't happen, but that it happens properly, on the teachers' terms.

If we can avoid accepting the swallowing of this, thin end of the wedge, bitter pill to swallow, why would we work to ensure it comes in.

It is going to cost the government, through the SEC, to correct the 60% terminal exams, why not correct the 40% CA while they are at it?

I facilitate my junior science students with their projects which are a form of CA, I dont WANT to have to mark them.

I don't know how many other ways I can say it, it's off the table as far as I'm concerned and if this lone buffalo gets through the gap, just watch the stampede of "new directives" that well further casualise and denigrate our "profession"

A real professional stands up for his/her profession and this is an example of just that