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Laws Question? Ask here!

Alan_007_

Just wondering.If the ball is on the ground and you kick it over do you get the 3 points or is it play on?

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total former

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The Laws state the ball is in touch when a player carrying it and the ball carrier or the ball touches the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. Billy didn't touch the ground therefore try give. That's the definition of touch under Law 19 so try awarded

But is the point not that the Italian 9 also had his hands on the ball and he was in touch before it was grounded?

cython

dcrosskid wrote: »

I came across the video earlier where Leinster had a penalty against Connacht and the ball went through the post and the wind blew it back. It's probably been asked or clarified a few times here before but was it the right call to allow the 3 points or should it have been play on?

If I kicked a ball over the line and it blew back in before it hit the ground it would be play on so why was this given?

There is an explicit law or laws stating that the ball is dead once it is kicked between the uprights, regardless of whether it might return to the field of play - that seemingly unlikely scenario with Leinster was either actually envisioned when the laws were written, or once upon a time the same thing happened and a resulting discussion resulted in the laws being updated

pickarooney wrote: »

That seems like a blatant contradiction. Blood subs can take kicks but not concussion subs and this is to prevent a repeat of bloodgate? Why just kicking? Should a concussion sub be allowed to scrum or contest a lineout? Besides if sexton was not given a concussion test last week after that collision there something amiss.

phog wrote: »

But there was obvious blood.

As the man says, blood injuries are more difficult to fake than head injuries - short of asking the TMO to potentially review the circumstances in the run up to every concussion bin to be certain they incurred a knock to the head, this would be even more open to Bloodgate-style abuse than the blood substitution. Blood bin trickery can be uncovered much more easily through vigilance/thoroughness alone

The Lost Sheep

total former wrote: »

But is the point not that the Italian 9 also had his hands on the ball and he was in touch before it was grounded?

He may have but he wasn't the ball carrier

[Deleted User]

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

He may have but he wasn't the ball carrier

Can the ball carrier stand on anything outside of the field of play so long as he doesn't make contact with the grass or pitchmarkings?

(Deliberately ridiculous ideal)

The Lost Sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Can the ball carrier stand on anything outside of the field of play so long as he doesn't make contact with the grass or pitchmarkings?

(Deliberately ridiculous ideal)

His feet would be outside the plane of touch so no. The object is off the field of play therefore he is in touch

[Deleted User]

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

His feet would be outside the plane of touch so no. The object is off the field of play therefore he is in touch

Vunipola's weight at 31 seconds in the video above is being borne by an object outside the plane of touch (an Italian man in this case). Why is that different?

accidentprone1

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

His feet would be outside the plane of touch so no. The object is off the field of play therefore he is in touch

What about a carpet of people, so, as Emmet said?

Edit: Ignore this, Emmet02 is along the same lines

The Lost Sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Vunipola's weight at 31 seconds in the video above is being borne by an object outside the plane of touch (an Italian man in this case). Why is that different?

I don't know. I'll bring it up at the next ref association workshop I go to.

[Deleted User]

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I don't know. I'll bring it up at the next ref association workshop I go to.

Cheers, I just can't figure out why it's allowed. It's almost as if I'm hoping for there to be some ridiculously specific interpretation that allows for this, just because if we take it to be 'allowed' we can find so many farcical eventualities that are too stupid to be allowed.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

Vunipola's weight at 31 seconds in the video above is being borne by an object outside the plane of touch (an Italian man in this case). Why is that different?

Is that no it similar to Bowe (?) lifting the legs of Earls (?) over the touchline in a tackle to try and prevent him scoring a try in Thomond Park a few years ago, I think it was a HC QF. Bowe was in touch and Earls legs were over the touchline but in the air and try was allowed.

Also, at ruck time, you'd often have one or more players in touch but the ball coulkd still be deemed in play.

phog

total former wrote: »

But is the point not that the Italian 9 also had his hands on the ball and he was in touch before it was grounded?

If that ruled it out then you'd have defenders ensuring they're in touch and touch the ball too rather than keeping the ball held up beyond the try line.

entangled

Deleted User wrote: »

Cheers, I just can't figure out why it's allowed. It's almost as if I'm hoping for there to be some ridiculously specific interpretation that allows for this, just because if we take it to be 'allowed' we can find so many farcical eventualities that are too stupid to be allowed.

Walking up the touchline over a carpet of your own players is fairly ridiculous, but even if it was technically allowed, it wouldn't give you an advantage would it? Presumably if you're not in touch then someone can just tackle you and push you in to touch anyway.

sydthebeat

entangled wrote: »

Walking up the touchline over a carpet of your own players is fairly ridiculous, but even if it was technically allowed, it wouldn't give you an advantage would it? Presumably if you're not in touch then someone can just tackle you and push you in to touch anyway.

Yeah but you could be lifted and pushed back in field by your own player as you were being tackled off the pitch

Losty Dublin

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I don't know. I'll bring it up at the next ref association workshop I go to.

It still rests on whether the player in possession is or isn't in touch. This still applies at the maul and tackle so you can only say play on.

Losty Dublin

pickarooney wrote: »

That seems like a blatant contradiction. Blood subs can take kicks but not concussion subs and this is to prevent a repeat of bloodgate? Why just kicking? Should a concussion sub be allowed to scrum or contest a lineout? Besides if sexton was not given a concussion test last week after that collision there something amiss.

I did say that I gathered that the potential for a similar situation led to this clause; ie I am not 100% sure

PS Late with the reply, sorry.

[Deleted User]

RE: Players and kicking routines.

Deleted User wrote: »

One for the laws thread perhaps so, but if Ireland were 1 point down with 90seconds remaining on the playing clock and won a penalty directly in front of the posts, what prevents our tee-bringer-on-er taking his sweet ass time so that when Sexton receives the tee there's only 50s left on the clock, meaning that he can take his time and there wont be time left for the restart?

I was under the impression (seemingly wrongly) that the referee marks the intention to kick (by pointing at the posts) which then means that the team are committed to taking a kick at goal and can no longer take a tap penalty / kick for touch.

aimee1

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I did say that I gathered that the potential for a similar situation led to this clause; ie I am not 100% sure

PS Late with the reply, sorry.

the blood sub is clear cut. There is blood visible and a player has to go off. Concussion tests are for an issue that isnt visible

LeinsterDub

Any see the chase down in the Glasgow game? What's the law?

[Deleted User]

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Any see the chase down in the Glasgow game? What's the law?

I didn't, could you describe what happened?

LeinsterDub

Penalty for sprays. Glasgow player retreats 10, sprays player kicking moves (I think) Glasgow player chases him down and tackles him. Scrum Glasgow for the ospreys not using the ball.

The Lost Sheep

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Any see the chase down in the Glasgow game? What's the law?

Could you post a clip of incident? Might be easier to give an answer if can see exactly what happened

Karl Stein

When I was watching the Munster v Scarlets game on Saturday afternoon I couldn't help but think the Scarlets quick anticipatory rush up could be easily exploited by a dummy-pass by the scrum-half quickly followed by a genuine pass to get penalties for offside.

Is there some sort of rule that prevents this play?

The Lost Sheep

Karl Stein wrote: »

When I was watching the Munster v Scarlets game on Saturday afternoon I couldn't help but think the Scarlets quick anticipatory rush up could be easily exploited by a dummy-pass by the scrum-half quickly followed by a genuine pass to get penalties for offside.

Is there some sort of rule that prevents this play?

A player must not act in a way to make the opposition think that the ball is out of the ruck while it is still in the ruck. Its penalised by a free kick

Karl Stein

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

A player must not act in a way to make the opposition think that the ball is out of the ruck while it is still in the ruck. Its penalised by a free kick

But what if it is taken out of the ruck and the player feigns a throw then immediately throws for real after the opposing team has stepped offside?

It appeared to me like the quick rush-up defence was easily exploitable for offside.

locum-motion

Karl Stein wrote: »

But what if it is taken out of the ruck and the player feigns a throw then immediately throws for real after the opposing team has stepped offside?

It appeared to me like the quick rush-up defence was easily exploitable for offside.

If the ball has been taken out of the ruck, then it is in open play.
There is no offside in open play.

Karl Stein

locum-motion wrote: »

There is no offside in open play.

So if a player on the opposing team is 4/5 meters in front of where the ball has been thrown/passed from and they intercept it they're not offside?

Offside rules in rugby union are complex. However the basic principle is simple: a player may not derive any advantage from being in front of the ball.

wikipedia.org

irishbucsfan

Karl Stein wrote: »

So if a player on the opposing team is 4/5 meters in front of where the ball has been thrown/passed from and they intercept it they're not offside?

No, that would be perfectly legal. There's no offside in open play.

LeinsterDub

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Could you post a clip of incident? Might be easier to give an answer if can see exactly what happened

Can't seem to find it

awec

Karl Stein wrote: »

But what if it is taken out of the ruck and the player feigns a throw then immediately throws for real after the opposing team has stepped offside?

It appeared to me like the quick rush-up defence was easily exploitable for offside.

A quick rush defence is exploitable for a chip over the top. Once the ball is out of the ruck then it's fair game, otherwise interceptions would be essentially impossible in that scenario.

padser

Karl Stein wrote: »

So if a player on the opposing team is 4/5 meters in front of where the ball has been thrown/passed from and they intercept it they're not offside?

Yeah I've seen that Wikipedia quote before and have had friends with little rugby knowledge also be confused by it.

It's such an oversimplification that it's basically worthless.

You must add to it "when an offside line is created" and specify that "offside lines are created when a tackle is made or a kick is taken".

Then you have a reasonably simple rule that explains lots of scenarios in rugby (albeit not all).

However, the fact remains that in open play you could technically have players spread out like those on a soccer or GAA team. In practice it makes sense to keep to a defensive line most of the time, but that's tactics rather than by law.