nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

RoundBox11

Pairing Luke Marshall with Cave in the centre and Payne at fullback could be really good for the wolfhounds backline. They should know each other inside out. Then Gilroy could be on one wing.

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

irishbucsfan

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

These numbers are meaningless. Neither has attacked, ball in hand, to gain yards, so comparing them tells us nothing about how they have played. Or as much as comparing which of them has thrown better into the lineout.
For the same reason, the possible merits of playing Fitz, Earls or others in place of one of them as advocated by many here, has no relevance to the Schmidt game plan. Defence-beating through the 3/4ers, other than after multiple plays and overlaps or mismatches present themselves and swinging it wide for a try is almost a formality, is not the strategy.

You act as if Schmidt has one gameplan which he is going to apply rain or shine. Years of watching Joe Schmidt, even in the time since he has taken the national job, would suggest this is not the case.

sydthebeat

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

These numbers are meaningless. Neither has attacked, ball in hand, to gain yards, .

That's just patently unashamedly incorrect

mfceiling

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Its largely down to tactics. We aren't trying to play rugby, so there is little to be seen from our attack. Whether this tactic is due to our centre partnership, or whether Joe thinks this conservative brand of rugby is our key to winning games, remains to be seen.

I agree with you that it is largely down to tactics. You prepare for and play what is front of you.

You and maybe Joe think that it is a conservative brand of rugby and to be honest after 9 wins on the bounce it does seem to be key to winning games.

Would you want the ball to be flung around a bit more and for us to lose a few more games or are you happy to see us on a good winning run?

I know it's not the greatest spectacle in the world to watch but I'm sure we'll all be happy if we complete the slam!!

[Deleted User]

Payne has covered his channel brilliantly in defence, I would imagine it's going to be very tough for Schmidt to drop him based on that alone. Obviously the attack has been a bit underwhelming, but we're winning.

I have to say I'm a bit concerned as to what'll happen if we end up having to chase a game. Might see the shackles come off a bit then. And the Sexton/Payne-pass-to-the-face would have been a try 9 times out of 10, just poor execution did us in.

Considering where we've come from though, finished joint last in 2013 under Kidney, I find some of the attitudes towards Schmidt to be completely bizarre.

kuang1

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I have a question here: What do people mean by it "not clicking?"

I think personally we really haven't tried anything at all in attack so far. Against France we were kicking on 2nd and 3rd phase under no pressure in their half at times. I don't think that's all we have in our locker at all, Joe is obviously an exceptionally talented architect of incisive attacking play, yet we haven't tried anything in that department really. .

I'm almost in full agreement with this. The only pedantic difference I would suggest is that we have tried very little in attack (in the line-break sense.)

Cast your mind back to last year. We beat Scotland comfortably without playing beyond 80% of capacity.(The previous game to that had been the all-blacks; I would have described that as 110% capacity.) Scotland were a shell of a team. Any stats from that game are difficult to place import on.

Then we beat Wales scoring 4 penalties and 2 converted tries. 1 of those tries being from a lineout/maul, the other being at the very end of the game when Wales had capitulated, but arose from a lineout/maul build-up.

Then England. We didn't score in the first half, trailed 3-0 at half time. But had plenty of the backs involved in that first half; plenty ball-thro-hand.
Interestingly too we attempted no maul in the first half. Our first was with 44mins gone, we rolled it on 15 metres and then won a penalty from it. Followed by another on 5/6 minutes later which also resulted in a penalty (from which Sexton got our final score of the match).

I think Joe was trying to keep the English guessing in the first half, and was probably pleased with the score at half-time. Almost as if he was fooling them into thinking that we weren't going be to using the maul, then unleashed it (somewhat) in the 2nd half with good effect. (I counted 4 mauls in total; each of which gained ground.)

I've said this before, and I still am of the belief that we are hard to plan against. I reckon if Lancaster were to design his gameplan around what he has seen from us in the first 2 games (not saying he will), then we would have ample surprises for him.
Given we're 12 months later (Joe older and wiser*), at home, with close to a first choice 23 available, I really don't see us losing this match. (Barring an insane/extremely unlucky referee's decision.)

*Annual gain of wisdom accelerates with age. I.e. Joe will have accrued more wisdom than Lancaster in any given time frame!!

Henshaw and Henderson both legend-status already for me. Would love Henderson to start at 6/7/8 while Heaslip's getting some Thai messages for himself:)
Payne has done nothing to warrant being replaced in my book; as has been said: has done everything that's been asked. Very interested in what an earlier poster suggested that Joe might be choosing his centre pairing (partially at least) based on resistance to injury. Hadn't considered that myself but makes reasonable sense.

Murray and Sexton invaluable to us. Simple as that.

Zebo being recognised as valuable to our defence due to great tackling technique.

Best worries me a little. (Nothing to do with yellow card.)

Healy & SOB always remind me of this (from 3:32 onwards):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0I96BK_lMw

I think we'll beat england by more than a single score, and that Joe will finally unleash the backs. (Cue youtube montage after the game of Ireland's 3 tries scored shown to the background music of "who let the dogs out")

In Joe we trust.

total former

Interested Observer wrote: »

Considering where we've come from though, finished joint last in 2013 under Kidney, I find some of the attitudes towards Schmidt to be completely bizarre.

An observation of fact, that the midfield hasn't fired offensively, is not "an attitude towards Schmidt".

sydthebeat

total former wrote: »

An observation of fact, that the midfield hasn't fired offensively, is not "an attitude towards Schmidt".

The perception put out by some that we are playing dull rugby is though. ....

stephen_n

At this moment we are not playing an offloading game, so it's hard for the centres to look good in attack, or play off each other. Hopefully we will see this come as the games move on, as joe will have had more time with the players to practice it. Unless it's happening 100% in training, it's unlikely we'll see it in games, so it leaves us with the situation that our centres are doing everything that's being asked of them by the coach, so why would we change them. I would love to see Henshaw at 13 or Luke for that matter but I can't fault Payne either.

total former

sydthebeat wrote: »

The perception put out by some that we are playing dull rugby is though. ....

But is that incorrect? It's a valid point for discussion at the very least. Two offloads and zero line breaks in 80 minutes of rugby, only one real threat to the try line. It's not champagne rugby really.

It was very exciting but that excitement came from the nature of the match and the physical intensity of it.

(Yes, I know we won and I know Joe has more than one game plan)

Big Nelly

kuang1 wrote: »

I've said this before, and I still am of the belief that we are hard to plan against. I reckon if Lancaster were to design his gameplan around what he has seen from us in the first 2 games (not saying he will), then we would have ample surprises for him.
Given we're 12 months later (Joe older and wiser*), at home, with close to a first choice 23 available, I really don't see us losing this match. (Barring an insane/extremely unlucky referee's decision.)

Lancaster has already come out and said that he might change the team to combat against Irelands kicking game, he pin pointed Sexton/Murray kick a lot and he needs to have a back 3 capable of bring able to deal with that tactic

I would guess Joe loved hearing this, because he can then of course swap his game plan.....the big issue will be the weather, if pi**ing rain then I would see Ireland having to kick it again.....

Buer

kuang1 wrote: »

while Heaslip's getting some Thai messages for himself:)

I assume that's fish sauce and lemongrass?

phog

sydthebeat wrote: »

The perception put out by some that we are playing dull rugby is though. ....

In the 6Ns if you take out some of the big hits or kick chase how exciting has our games been?

We've score two tries against a 14 man team that will end in last or 2nd last place of the pool.

.ak

I think when people use terms like creativity in attach, or offloading game, they need to remember that this centre partnership only has played 3 games together, and both players have a handful of caps between them, and they're playing against the best teams in the world...

Joe's not going to ask a very green midfield to start trying very complicated first phase ball movement, or offloading in the tackle. I'm sure he's encouraging them to play what's infront of them, but I doubt he's asking them to do anything out of their comfort zone.

Payne and Henshaw may be absolute tanks, it may seem like we don't want to 'play rugby', but that's ridiculous. These are both x-factor players, capable of amazing things, once they settle I imagine we'll see a lot more movement from them. But for now, a good coach would be encouraging them to play simple, and play to their strengths.

They wouldn't be my pick, but I can certainly see the logic in picking them and I believe they've only played in 1st gear so far.

Do You Even Squat

.ak wrote: »

I think when people use terms like creativity in attach, or offloading game, they need to remember that this centre partnership only has played 3 games together, and both players have a handful of caps between them, and they're playing against the best teams in the world...

Joe's not going to ask a very green midfield to start trying very complicated first phase ball movement, or offloading in the tackle. I'm sure he's encouraging them to play what's infront of them, but I doubt he's asking them to do anything out of their comfort zone.

Payne and Henshaw may be absolute tanks, it may seem like we don't want to 'play rugby', but that's ridiculous. These are both x-factor players, capable of amazing things, once they settle I imagine we'll see a lot more movement from them. But for now, a good coach would be encouraging them to play simple, and play to their strengths.

They wouldn't be my pick, but I can certainly see the logic in picking them and I believe they've only played in 1st gear so far.

Although that is a good point, Payne hasn't set the world on fire with Ulster over the last 6ish months at centre. I know he got injured and has recently played fullback, however he has been rather impotent at centre. He is a world class fullback no doubt, but he hasn't looked like an international centre in attack during his time for both Ireland and Ulster. I completely agree that both Payne and Henshaw, and more importantly Ireland, have been playing in 2nd gear in our last 2 tests. I honestly can't conclude whether that that's positive or negative as we were walking all over France in the first 20-30 mins but we failed to score any try with such dominance and a French team going back. Maybe if we got into too far a lead at half time, Tales and Parra would have come on would throw the ball around a lot more which would have caused us more problems. So we wanted to tire their pack and Bastareaud and then if we got our chance to score a try into the 2nd half the game would have been killed (ie Payne's chance)? I can't fathom how JS would tell players to not score tries however if the opportunity is there. So maybe we were just keeping plays in the locker for England. Idk it's really hard to understand what goes through JS's head considering that Jones is anywhere near the team.

rrpc

.ak wrote: »

I think when people use terms like creativity in attach, or offloading game, they need to remember that this centre partnership only has played 3 games together, and both players have a handful of caps between them, and they're playing against the best teams in the world...

I keep saying this, but it's not just Payne and Henshaw playing together but Sexton as well. They got their first run against France but at the crux of the match when normally you'd see an acceleration, we were badly disrupted by a yellow card and injuries to key players necessitating a lot of shuffling. We didn't really settle again until the 65th minute by which time France were still in the game and the dynamic had shifted irretrievably.

BoardsMember

.ak wrote: »

I think when people use terms like creativity in attach, or offloading game, they need to remember that this centre partnership only has played 3 games together, and both players have a handful of caps between them, and they're playing against the best teams in the world...

Joe's not going to ask a very green midfield to start trying very complicated first phase ball movement, or offloading in the tackle. I'm sure he's encouraging them to play what's infront of them, but I doubt he's asking them to do anything out of their comfort zone.

Payne and Henshaw may be absolute tanks, it may seem like we don't want to 'play rugby', but that's ridiculous. These are both x-factor players, capable of amazing things, once they settle I imagine we'll see a lot more movement from them. But for now, a good coach would be encouraging them to play simple, and play to their strengths.

They wouldn't be my pick, but I can certainly see the logic in picking them and I believe they've only played in 1st gear so far.

Italy? Zero line breaks. Very few attempted moves or complexity in the centre. You'd have to ask yourself why. Answer one would probably be Keatley at 10, then all the other excuses, but not to try anything against them still seems very unusual.

phog

.ak wrote: »

I think when people use terms like creativity in attach, or offloading game, they need to remember that this centre partnership only has played 3 games together, and both players have a handful of caps between them, and they're playing against the best teams in the world...

Joe's not going to ask a very green midfield to start trying very complicated first phase ball movement, or offloading in the tackle. I'm sure he's encouraging them to play what's infront of them, but I doubt he's asking them to do anything out of their comfort zone.

Payne and Henshaw may be absolute tanks, it may seem like we don't want to 'play rugby', but that's ridiculous. These are both x-factor players, capable of amazing things, once they settle I imagine we'll see a lot more movement from them. But for now, a good coach would be encouraging them to play simple, and play to their strengths.

They wouldn't be my pick, but I can certainly see the logic in picking them and I believe they've only played in 1st gear so far.

Italy will be delighted with their elevation to being one of the best teams in the world.

total former

rrpc wrote: »

I keep saying this, but it's not just Payne and Henshaw playing together but Sexton as well. They got their first run against France but at the crux of the match when normally you'd see an acceleration, we were badly disrupted by a yellow card and injuries to key players necessitating a lot of shuffling. We didn't really settle again until the 65th minute by which time France were still in the game and the dynamic had shifted irretrievably.

Sorry to be so pedantic but they got their first run as a trio against South Africa. As the legend goes, it's because Henshaw and Payne were going so well in training after D'Arcy's injury in the lead up to that game that Joe decided to throw them in together, which is all fine, but we've yet to see it on the pitch.

[Deleted User]

BoardsMember wrote: »

Italy? Zero line breaks. Very few attempted moves or complexity in the centre. You'd have to ask yourself why. Answer one would probably be Keatley at 10, then all the other excuses, but not to try anything against them still seems very unusual.

5 clean breaks v Italy

Henshaw beat 3 defenders, Payne 1.

Imo, Henshaw-Payne is bubbling slowly along. We've not seen any fireworks, but I'm patient about it.

JoeTheMuss

In fairness to Henshaw-Payne, they are replacing the most experienced center partnership in world rugby,not only that but without doubt the best 13 in world rugby, Henshaw is definitely the real deal, not so sure about Payne, the longer they train and play together the better they will get hopefully.

.ak

BoardsMember wrote: »

Italy? Zero line breaks. Very few attempted moves or complexity in the centre. You'd have to ask yourself why. Answer one would probably be Keatley at 10, then all the other excuses, but not to try anything against them still seems very unusual.

They're still a good side, and to make your centres play complicated moves against them on their 2nd test would be stupid. Which is exactly what Joe is not.

vienne86

JoeTheMuss wrote: »

In fairness to Henshaw-Payne, they are replacing the most experienced center partnership in world rugby,not only that but without doubt the best 13 in world rugby, Henshaw is definitely the real deal, not so sure about Payne, the longer they train and play together the better they will get hopefully.

My thoughts completely. I would like to see Fitz and Henshaw play together though. Payne is a fine player, and I had high hopes for him at 13, but I'm no convenced that this is the right position for him. Yet.

rrpc

total former wrote: »

Sorry to be so pedantic but they got their first run as a trio against South Africa. As the legend goes, it's because Henshaw and Payne were going so well in training after D'Arcy's injury in the lead up to that game that Joe decided to throw them in together, which is all fine, but we've yet to see it on the pitch.

Sorry, I meant in the context of the six nations.

Tox56

phog wrote: »

Italy will be delighted with their elevation to being one of the best teams in the world.

Yes that's exactly the opposition he had in mind when he said that

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

They're still a good side, and to make your centres play complicated moves against them on their 2nd test would be stupid. Which is exactly what Joe is not.

We did try a few things against Italy but we had an inexperienced guy at 10 on the day so that was always going to limit what we did in the middle of the park. But on the 5 minute mark we ran this play off a scrum where Murray passed to Payne, who popped an inside ball back to Kearney on the angle (while Murray offered himself for the wrap around) who then cut across one of the Italian defenders on his run and popped it to Keatley coming straight through the middle. Unfortunately Gori had it covered in the end. I think some of the forwards timed their runs badly as they were probably meant to be running blocking lines for Keatley but it was reasonably complicated in a tight channel beside the scrum. And the backs seemed to execute well. TOD and Murphy seemed to time their runs a little early though.

S12b

Is anyone else surprised Sean O'Brien isn't with Leinster tomorrow night? Surely every bit of game time he can get will help him get sharper......even stranger when you see someone like Sean Cronin, who plays as much as Heaslip or Kearney, involved.

[Deleted User]

S12b wrote: »

Is anyone else surprised Sean O'Brien isn't with Leinster tomorrow night? Surely every bit of game time he can get will help him get sharper......even stranger when you see someone like Sean Cronin, who plays as much as Heaslip or Kearney, involved.

Cronin was on the bench and despite a lot of game time earlier in the season is lacking a bit of late. Also we have 2 hookers available. There really is no replacement for Sean O'Brien and truth be told he looked quite sharp against France so I'd say with Heaslip out they are minding him.

SaveOurLyric

S12b wrote: »

Is anyone else surprised Sean O'Brien isn't with Leinster tomorrow night?.

I'd have been shocked had he been involved.
With Heaslip, Henry, and Ruddock out of the England game, if I were Joe, I'd shove game time, and wouldnt allow O'Brien, Murphy, O'Mahony, or O'Donnell even tackle a marshmallow this weekend.

errlloyd

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I'd have been shocked had he been involved.
With Heaslip, Henry, and Ruddock out of the England game, if I were Joe, I'd shove game time, and wouldnt allow O'Brien, Murphy, O'Mahony, or O'Donnell even tackle a marshmallow this weekend.

Saw POM's stats last time he tried to tackle a bag of Marshmallows, 8/17

aimee1

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/neil-francis-french-have-always-been-dirty-but-this-was-really-disturbing-31004330.html

one of his better articles