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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1

MrJones1973

Highjacking OP's post for ....

Mod Gentle Warning

OK folks, It looks like this is going to be 'The strike-thread', so for the proposes of civility I'd ask that we just try to keep the title in mind to focus the debate as a lot of 'kitchen sinks' are going to get thrown around.

We've done the circular blame game of young vs' old teachers to death on here so I think the time is appropriate to move on.

Also the circular argument of ASTI vs TUI/INTO.

Also management vs' teachers.

These can muddy the waters of the substantive issue of the proposed JCSA and the strike action.

As usual...

Read charter (there will be a test for the boldies).
Report stuff ... or use the ignore function for people who annoy you.
It's an open forum so think of it as an oppertunity to challenge and change some peoples' views.

MOD

Are most voting? What way? No real talks have occurred with Minister because of ballot. JMB has suggested we go back to 2011 NCCA proposals-though their timing for this suggestion (during a ballot) is seen as poor.
Bottom line folks unless you are prepared to go out for a few strike days-you're screwed. That's my view-all that's being suggested so far is a few Temporary A posts to help bring it in. Jan also says "Its not about money"

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2011abc

Armelodie wrote: »

Hold on there now.. just to clarify. Are you using the term 'embezzle' loosely (as in; not doing their job to what you deem to be the in line with what they are paid to do!) or are you suggesting that someone in the ASTIis actively misappropriating funds from parts of the organisation for their own financial gain? I think you would need to be careful about suggesting criminality without any evidence.

MOD

Not only not doing job theyre paid to do but supporting the 'opposition'.

acequion

km79 wrote: »

because it has been the reality for the past few years. simple as that.
I really hope I'm wrong but it's following a very very familiar pattern.....why no update since Monday ? when will we get one ? tomorrow night maybe Saturday of the holidays? sounds familiar right .........Pat King is retiring in December that is a fact. He has not had our interests at heart for the last few years .This is also a fact.. I witnessed his absolutely disgusting condescending apathetic attitude first hand when he came to our school last year. The union was directing a NO on HRA but he was doing something else.
I have absolutely NO FAITH in him doing what's best for us . I don't trust him. That's why I'm so negative /a realist
The union entered these talks saying they would walk away if any form of teacher assessment remained. They have not walked away. Does that mean the assessment has been removed OR they are going to comeback with a "deal" including teacher assessment (which we went on strike for 2 days for in last 2 months )????
I have contacted asti 3 times this week asking when we will get an update. No reply

No km79 you are not a realist,you are a pessimist.

I know exactly what you are saying. I too witnessed his attitude when he came to our branch meeting prior to the third HRA vote to quite blatantly push for a yes,where I and others challenged him on his stance. When I pointed this out on the asti facebook page I got barred and am actually still barred. So,I wouldn't have much faith either. But I don't think he's corrupt,more a coward who'll take the quickest exit.However,the outcome does not depend on him alone.

And no they have not walked away. And yes they will compromise,we all know that. What remains to be seen is the type of compromise.It may actually be something we can live with.

I,too could be completely wrong by being upbeat.I have nothing but the utmost contempt for officialdom in Ireland as a result of how things have been handled these past few years. Just look at the Government's recent refusal to attend a debt conference! Is that not a very plain statement of who they support?

BUT, ultimately the unions depend on their members,not on Pat King etc. So is it not more constructive to rally the troops rather than demoralise them with premature and presumptuous predictions of defeat?

km79

acequion wrote: »

No km79 you are not a realist,you are a pessimist.

I know exactly what you are saying. I too witnessed his attitude when he came to our branch meeting prior to the third HRA vote to quite blatantly push for a yes,where I and others challenged him on his stance. When I pointed this out on the asti facebook page I got barred and am actually still barred. So,I wouldn't have much faith either. But I don't think he's corrupt,more a coward who'll take the quickest exit.However,the outcome does not depend on him alone.

And no they have not walked away. And yes they will compromise,we all know that. What remains to be seen is the type of compromise.It may actually be something we can live with.

I,too could be completely wrong by being upbeat.I have nothing but the utmost contempt for officialdom in Ireland as a result of how things have been handled these past few years. Just look at the Government's recent refusal to attend a debt conference! Is that not a very plain statement of who they support?

BUT, ultimately the unions depend on their members,not on Pat King etc. So is it not more constructive to rally the troops rather than demoralise them with premature and presumptuous predictions of defeat?

That's the most demoralising thing of all......the troops don't want rallying. I don't talk about it with colleagues anymore as most don't really care. They are only worried about whether we will loae another days strike pay! They will accept whatever "deal" Pat tells them to! That's being pessimistic and realistic!
There are not too many troops on here either to demoralise .
its the same 5\6 for last few years. and there has been a steady decline into pessimism in my posts as time has gone on.
I used to be so happy

anyway I hope I'm wrong

acequion

km79 wrote: »

That's the most demoralising thing of all......the troops don't want rallying. I don't talk about it with colleagues anymore as most don't really care. They are only worried about whether we will loae another days strike pay! They will accept whatever "deal" Pat tells them to! That's being pessimistic and realistic!
There are not too many troops on here either to demoralise .
its the same 5\6 for last few years. and there has been a steady decline into pessimism in my posts as time has gone on.
I used to be so happy anyway I hope I'm wrong

I hope you are too.:)

km79

acequion wrote: »

I hope you are too.:)

I've a feeling we will find out in the next few days
maybe it won't be as bad as I fear but we will need to beware the devil in the detail as always

km79

So here we are the Friday before midterm and guess what we have an update........but it's from our "friendly" Indo http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/junior-cert-peace-plan-will-see-exam-split-in-two-30988573.html
What an ABSOLUTE JOKE
That needs to be rejected out of hand

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

So here we are the Friday before midterm and guess what we have an update........but it's from our "friendly" Indo http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/junior-cert-peace-plan-will-see-exam-split-in-two-30988573.html
What an ABSOLUTE JOKE
That needs to be rejected out of hand

Its telling the Indo has a press release before the ASTI.

Anyhow, I shall endeavour to remain positive.
Anyone have a breakdown? News headlines on radio say teachers will assess their own students but not for certification for JC! Isnt that just normal everyday teaching, I dont understand.

km79

Armelodie wrote: »

Its telling the Indo has a press release before the ASTI

its following the same inevitable pattern as I said last night
standing committee needs to reject this out of hand
if I hear the word ballot later this evening I may explode!!!!!
how many of these things have been announced now on the eve of a holiday ? 3 in last year I make it

solerina

Combining the two aspects into one grade is off the table, at least for the moment. Aggregating the two sets of results into a single overall grade would require further discussion, says Dr Travers

No No No.....its a slippery slope !!!!

km79

solerina wrote: »

Combining the two aspects into one grade is off the table, at least for the moment. Aggregating the two sets of results into a single overall grade would require further discussion, says Dr Travers

No No No.....its a slippery slope !!!!

There is no way this can even be put to ballot
It must be rejected immediately
Even the % assessment has remained the same
All we have is a much messier proposal

Boober Fraggle

That's worse than what was on offer before. 'why does my johnny only have a C from his continuous assessment when he got a B in his exam?' No no no no no!!!!

evolving_doors

I dont know, has the JC exam been preserved? it appears to suggest that theres 40% less of the course going to be examined in june exams. mightnt be so bad if some aspects are transferred over to CA!

I think its a well thought out document for compromise! The assessment for certification is off the table now.

Of course, bare in mind this is only a proposal from the mediator! I would presume the horse trading has to start yet.

I think there was a little dig at RQ at the end when it said that matters concerning the curriculum should revert back to the NCCA!

btw the very very confidential doc itself can be found here

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/article30988970.ece/BINARY/Junior+Cycle+Reform+Way+Forward.pdf

Chancer3001

My understanding is that 40 percent will now be for the Xmas and midterm results from 2nd and 3rd year.

And we'll all have meetings to make sure we all correct the same.

clunked

In essence, this proposal smells of a TOTAL crock of SH!TE. Its a slippery slope. What if a student gets a D from the teacher assessed part of the course and an A from the SEC exam? This is so bad its not even laughable.

Chancer3001

That will be like somebody getting an f in their Xmas tests then an a in the junior cert. It happens.

acequion

Oh jesus this is a total heap of shyte and offers no solution whatsoever!!

Razorfish

I hope myself and my partner didn't lose 2 days pay each for this pile of horse manure!! Sounds like the slippery slope to me!! If the Unions put this to a ballot, I'll personally be disgusted.

acequion

An "honorable solution" said Travers!! How removed from reality are these guys?? Our education system is at stake here and all that matters is "honour" Talk about a farce. It is glaringly obvious that the only solution is to scrap Quinn's lunatic "reform" and go back to the drawing board. But no they come up with some half baked plan that will still straitjacket the teacher and still cause extra work and stress while paving the way for official teacher assessment of 40% [for a start] down the line,probably linked to some meagre pay restoration which will touted by the media as massive pay rises.

I really was hoping for something better but it's starting to look as if you were right,km79!!

But the war is far from over yet!

feardeas

Surely a ballot is fair. Let people discuss it and make up their minds.

Chancer3001

I don't think its too bad.

Its just allowing us to use midterm reports as 40% of their grade.

Where does the extra work come in to it?

km79

Chancer3001 wrote: »

I don't think its too bad.

Its just allowing us to use midterm reports as 40% of their grade.

Where does the extra work come in to it?

nobody said anything about extra work. its about the integrity of the certificate. its an absolute joke ! and also read the proposals in more detail especially the bit where it says "at this time"......... anyway I think it will be put to a ballot and it will be accepted as many people will not take time to read the proposals. A year or 2 down the line the reality will hit home and this people will then be the loudest in the staff room complaining like they do now about CP hours etc. Hours they voted for .......
its all sickenly familiar and predictable.
there is still a chance the unions will remain strong of course. I'd be surprised but delighted

mirrorwall14

Hang on getting down into the nitty gritty on that document we are going to be correcting and assessing our own students work for this? The 40% has to be documented and assessed internally! Isn't that the whole bloody reason we were striking in the first place? There's nothing in that document which suggests that summer/christmas exams could be used, see 3.3-it will be orals/practicals/presentations etc.

3.4 says the NCCA will define them but 3.5 confirms that teachers will be administrating and assessing them

As a music teacher I'm also pissed about 2.2 which suggests that music will not get an external assessment but art and the technical subjects will?

km79

the entire document is up on the indo website but not as much as an update on union website or Facebook page !

km79

they must be watching this thread

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/junior-cycle-draft-document-may-form-basis-for-discussions-but-significant-issues-remain//back_to/asti-home/

evolving_doors

clunked wrote: »

In essence, this proposal smells of a TOTAL crock of SH!TE. Its a slippery slope. What if a student gets a D from the teacher assessed part of the course and an A from the SEC exam? This is so bad its not even laughable.

Aye but youll be assessing different things differently.
What about the student who gets an A in their practical and a C in the written... these differences have always happened in divided exams.

evolving_doors

feardeas wrote: »

Surely a ballot is fair. Let people discuss it and make up their minds.

this is just a proposal from travers. I would presume there wiil be changes. Although, it was leaked so maybe this is it! Any changes wil probablyl take place after a NO vote... if a no vote happens!

mirrorwall14

km79 wrote: »

they must be watching this thread http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/junior-cycle-draft-document-may-form-basis-for-discussions-but-significant-issues-remain//back_to/asti-home/

Have to say it is actually a disgrace that the document in its entirety was leaked before the meeting. Really bad form. It was a digital source too meaning that it wasn't even an informal 'chat' to a reporter-it was blatant

evolving_doors

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Have to say it is actually a disgrace that the document in its entirety was leaked before the meeting. Really bad form. It was a digital source too meaning that it wasn't even an informal 'chat' to a reporter-it was blatant

The leaking was obviously a done deal.. travers has document dated yesterday and it must have been mailed straight away to be ready for the 'old pals' in the indo at the crack of dawn today.

Maybe he used a hidden digital marker or slight variation in txt for each recipient so if the sent one is published in its original form (or not transcribed differently) then the leak is exposed!

km79

according to the ministers statement just released Mr Travers deadline for acceptance is NEXT THURSDAY http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2015-Press-Releases/PR15-02-13A.html

r93kaey5p2izun

How could it possibly have taken so many hours of talks and so much discussion to come up with such a load of old cobblers?!

The fact these proposals/agreements/circulars/announcements occur so often now on the eve of holidays is just embarrassing at this stage. They don't even try and hide their contempt.