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Old drivers

Shenshen

I've just stumbled across this article :

A Judge has told elderly drivers that they must ‘face up to facts’ if they are no longer safe on the roads after sentencing an 84-year-old woman who killed an 80-year-old man in a head-on smash.

Judge Stephen Holt also urged families and friends to ‘monitor’ ageing relatives as he imposed a five-year driving ban on Beryl Hughes and a 24-week jail sentence suspended for 12 months.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2861441/Judge-warns-older-drivers-woman-84-kills-man-80-Quit-unsafe-tells-them.html

It's a subject quite close to my own heart. My grandfather is in his 80s now. He's got the eyesight of a startled bat and the reaction time of a hungover glacier. Yet he still drives.

To tell you the truth, I didn't think he was fit to drive even 15 years ago, I always refused to get into the car with him it scared me so much.

But nothing the family says to him gets through. It's never him that's the problem, it's always everybody else. In his mind, his driving it perfect and it's not his fault that traffic lights change so quickly these days (he's convinced the government has changed the speed with which green turns to amber turns to red, to catch out motorists and make money), it's not his fault cyclists are speeding, it's not his fault mothers with prams leap into the road in front of his car, and he's convinced nobody on the roads has working break lights as he never notices them.

We've tried all we can as a family, and we've come up with some elaborate schemes. Trying to get him to sell his car to their cleaning lady, in exchange for her driving them whenwver they need to go anywhere - no success.
Getting his doctor talk to him - no success (he rang the insurance to cancel it and the nice lady on the phone told him that there was absolutely no reason he should have to stop driving. So he renewed his insurance instead and she got her bonus).
Filling his tank with diesel, hoping it would ruin the engine (no, we're not proud of that, just desperate) - didn't work.

My mother was looking into ways of legally forcing him to hand in his license. But he would have to be declared mentally incapacitated - a lengthy and costly process, with very little success in most cases. So no luck on that front.

At this point, I do believe he will have to kill someone before we really can stop him driving. I feel that is very wrong, I know I will feel like I'll be partially to blame and will feel extremely guilty, but there is absolutely nothing we can do.

So what does AH think? Any suggestions, anything we haven't tried yet?
Should there be a law to force people after a certain age to have regular assessments to see if they're still fit to drive?
Personally, I'd be in favour of mandatory tests every 5 or 10 years for every driver, regardless of age. We test the cars every year, but what about the dirvers?

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Candy_Girl

I honestly think once you hit 70 you should be re tested every year or two. I've lost count the amount of dangerous incidents I've seen from older drivers. I drive back roads quite a lot out this way and it's scary the amount of older people that just don't seem to be alert.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I am in my 70s. My driving is excellent still (of course we'd all say that wouldn't we). I drive a 2 litre saloon that I change every 2 years. I don't do huge milage but I enjoy driving. I would have no issue with a test every 2 years. I currently get regular medicals to ensure I'm fit to drive and would welcome a driving proficiency test. I know several people my age who are certainly a danger to themselves and others on the road. The unfortunate thing is that their cars are their lifelines. Bus pass etc is no good to us here as the nearest bus stop is 3 or 4 miles away and there is only one bus a day. Taking the ability to drive off some people is heartbreaking and can be the final eroding of a person's independence. Not an easy situation.

The Peanut

The actual age of the driver is a secondary, albeit, important factor. I know it would not sit well but I believe that all drivers should be made sit retests at fixed intervals. This would then carry on upwards as people get older.

It doesn't necessarily have to be the same level of detail as the initial test but it should be close. Ffs, any individual with a forklift license has to renew it periodically, I think it might be something similar for haulage drivers. People need to realise that there are people with licenses on our roads who are not equiped to drive.

VinLieger

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I think most people are against the idea of retesting, since they subconsciously realize that they would also be unable to pass a retest.

Surely this is more damning of how the test doesn't actually teach how to drive in real conditions than anything else? People wouldn't be able to pass it because some of the requirements to pass they would not have made use of since they first did it.

VinLieger

Ace Fast Figurine wrote: »

I am in my 70s. My driving is excellent still (of course we'd all say that wouldn't we). I drive a 2 litre saloon that I change every 2 years. I don't do huge milage but I enjoy driving. I would have no issue with a test every 2 years. I currently get regular medicals to ensure I'm fit to drive and would welcome a driving proficiency test. I know several people my age who are certainly a danger to themselves and others on the road. The unfortunate thing is that their cars are their lifelines. Bus pass etc is no good to us here as the nearest bus stop is 3 or 4 miles away and there is only one bus a day. Taking the ability to drive off some people is heartbreaking and can be the final eroding of a person's independence. Not an easy situation.

If you think about the possiblity of saving a life over taking an elderly persons car way from them who is not able to operate it safely anymore its an easy decision imo

Frigga_92

Sam Kade wrote: »

I've never seen that in fairness, I've seen plenty young women texting while driving though.

I'm sure you've seen plenty of people texting while driving, not just "young women".

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Its a difficult thing to do to take an old person off the road,its their last bit of independence taken away but if they are a danger to everything around them they need to stop driving

We went through this with my husband's father before he passed away.
We live in the country with no public transport so getting a bus pass wasn't an option. He thought if he gave up the car he would be confined to the house permanently. He wouldn't have been confined to the house permanently but at the time I was working full time and my husband was in college full time so he knew Monday - Friday during the day he wouldn't be able to go very far.
He also used his car to visit his brother's widow, bring her to do her shopping and bring her out for the day. She didn't drive at all so he knew if he gave up his car those visits would definitely be less frequent.
He wasn't a terrible driver but he also wasn't aware of everything around him but I think it was more a case of "I'm 80, I'm going to do what I want".
Thankfully he never had any accidents.

diomed

I think old people like myself (64 1/2) should be tested by a doctor. We should be tested by a doctor employed by the government, and the tests should be driving related.

My mother drove in her late 80s, and was imo unsafe. We noticed plenty of scrapes on her new car, but she was never in an accident (her opinion). So I drove her to Mass, took her to lunch, did her shopping, brought her to the hairdresser, and to the train station. Finally the battery died in her car.

In November a young driver "overtook" me and hit my car as he entered my lane. He didn't stop, but I have a dashcam, had his registration number, car make and model, video and photographs to show at his local police station. He denied hitting me. The Garda told him he had, and had the evidence. He was a L plate driver driving his daddy's car.

On Sunday evening I was almost hit by another L plate driver who came out of a right lane suddenly. She had confused junctions, realised her mistake, and swung out into traffic without looking.

We need tests for competence, not for age.

VinLieger

diomed wrote: »

I think old people like myself (64 1/2) should be tested by a doctor. We should be tested by a doctor employed by the government, and the tests should be driving related.

My mother drove in her late 80s, and was imo unsafe. We noticed plenty of scrapes on her new car, but she was never in an accident (her opinion). So I drove her to Mass, took her to lunch, did her shopping, brought her to the hairdresser, and to the train station. Finally the battery died in her car.

In November a young driver "overtook" me and hit my car as he entered my lane. He didn't stop, but I have a dashcam, had his registration number, car make and model, video and photographs to show at his local police station. He denied hitting me. The Garda told him he had, and had the evidence. He was a L plate driver driving his daddy's car.

On Sunday evening I was almost hit by another L plate driver who came out of a right lane suddenly. She had confused junctions, realised her mistake, and swung out into traffic without looking.

We need tests for competence, not for age.

Very true, the driving test in its current form has no relevance to actually how to drive on today's roads

Faith+1

VinLieger wrote: »

Very true, the driving test in its current form has no relevance to actually how to drive on today's roads

They really need to introduce a parking manouvre as part of the test. The amount of times I've seen people trying to parallel park and eventually give up. Test is a joke.

P. Breathnach

VinLieger wrote: »

If you think about the possiblity of saving a life over taking an elderly persons car way from them who is not able to operate it safely anymore its an easy decision imo

Fair enough, if you have a reasonable basis for judging that person unfit to drive.

I have felt endangered by many not-so-old drivers. I think that they, too, should be prevented from driving.

VinLieger

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Fair enough, if you have a reasonable basis for judging that person unfit to drive.

I have felt endangered by many not-so-old drivers. I think that they, too, should be prevented from driving.

Which is why we need to improve the driving test so people can learn how to actually drive safely and with others in mind instead of just learning how to pass a test.

[Deleted User]

My grandmother is 91 and still drives. Anytime I get in the car with her she seems grand, I used to be a lot more terrified going into the car with my brother when he was 17.

I still think they should get tested every year or two over the age of 80 or so.

Cuddlesworth

VinLieger wrote: »

Surely this is more damning of how the test doesn't actually teach how to drive in real conditions than anything else? People wouldn't be able to pass it because some of the requirements to pass they would not have made use of since they first did it.

Its nothing to do with the requirements that have been added. Its with the attitude that once the license is granted, there is no self assessment or improvement. Skills degrade and bad habits form.

[Deleted User]

Many elderly people never even would have taken a test in the first place! My grandmother went to her local town hall, filled in her form, and got her lisence!..

VinLieger

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Its nothing to do with the requirements that have been added. Its with the attitude that once the license is granted, there is no self assessment or improvement. Skills degrade and bad habits form.

Thats because no skills or good habits are taught to pass the test though, the requirements to pass it are burdensome and simply learned by rote until they get the pass and relate in no way to realistically being able to drive on our road's

ScumLord

VinLieger wrote: »

Any doctor who okay's an old person to drive should also be held liable for any accident's they caused.

It's not a given that everyone over 60 is a bad driver. Jackie Stewart (the legendary F1) driver is still well able to drive a car fast around a circuit and he's 75. People age differently, some people get doddery, others seem to function perfectly up until the day they die.

We do seem to let bad drivers slip through the system here in Ireland though, the way we teach drivers isn't great, if they can manage to look good for the test it's enough to let them on the road. It's not just old drivers, the habits start young and there's no effort to correct those bad habits.

Old people should also get their own till at the shops too, the amount of times I've gotten stuck behind some old one counting out pennies to pay for their shopping is scandalous. They have notes, I can see the notes, just pay with the fecking note for the love of god.

Philo Beddoe

Shenshen wrote: »

Then you shouldn't have any problems passing the test, surely?

I'm afraid if we did take his keys or his car away, he's quite likely to call the guards and drag us into court. It's one of his favourite past times, sueing everyone in the neighbourhood over anything he can think off.

He sounds like gas craic altogether.

MythicalMadMan

VinLieger wrote: »

If you think about the possiblity of saving a life over taking an elderly persons car way from them who is not able to operate it safely anymore its an easy decision imo

Let's take all cars and buses off the road can't just convience the old the save potential lost lives.

VinLieger

MythicalMadMan wrote: »

Let's take all cars and buses off the road can't just convience the old the save potential lost lives.

We should be banning more dangerous drivers I agree, although your comment seems to indicate you think its a ridiculous idea, obviously your not somebody who has ever been touched by tragedy through a car accident

Pumpkinseeds

My very elderly grandmother was an absolute menace behind the wheel. As far as I know she actually did manage to hit squad cars twice:eek: There's a lot of nonsense talked about how elderly drivers should have the right to drive. Driving is not a basic human right and there comes a point where they shouldn't be allowed to drive. Nowadays people are a lot fitter both mentally and physically for longer but we do need to have a realistic cut off point for driving. There's a mandatory work retirement age and the same should apply to driving.

RayM

Regardless of age, I think all drivers should be tested regularly. Especially on the so-called 'minor' stuff, like indicating correctly on roundabouts, which the vast majority of drivers can't be arsed with. Also, reverse and parallel parking, and motorway and night-time driving should be part of the test. It should be illegal to reverse out of a driveway or a non-angled parking space.

P. Breathnach

RayM wrote: »

Regardless of age, I think all drivers should be tested regularly. Especially on the so-called 'minor' stuff, like indicating correctly on roundabouts, which the vast majority of drivers can't be arsed with. Also, reverse and parallel parking, and motorway and night-time driving should be part of the test. It should be illegal to reverse out of a driveway or a non-angled parking space.

I wouldn't make a big deal of parking skills because it's not a safety issue.

You could avoid the need for repeated testing if a number of guards in unmarked cars were assigned to traffic duties. They might sometimes give drivers advice on their bad habits, and they might prosecute any driver whose bad driving is a danger to other road users.

ScumLord

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I wouldn't make a big deal of parking skills because it's not a safety issue

Parking is one of the times you're most likely to run someone over. You're more than likely in an area with pedestrians and your reversing your car around them. It's why most companies have a policy of reversing into car parking spaces so you're less likely to reverse over someone when leaving the space.

MythicalMadMan

VinLieger wrote: »

We should be banning more dangerous drivers I agree, although your comment seems to indicate you think its a ridiculous idea, obviously your not somebody who has ever been touched by tragedy through a car accident

The statistically dangerous drivers or the ones you think are dangerous?
I wouldnt presume anything about me but decisions like that need to me made without prejudice.

MythicalMadMan

RayM wrote: »

Regardless of age, I think all drivers should be tested regularly. Especially on the so-called 'minor' stuff, like indicating correctly on roundabouts, which the vast majority of drivers can't be arsed with. Also, reverse and parallel parking, and motorway and night-time driving should be part of the test. It should be illegal to reverse out of a driveway or a non-angled parking space.

Like if they fitted your car with a dashcam and a device that mesaure speed a use of indicators etc for a week or two. Use the money they make from NCT to fund this. After the two weeks your retuen equipment, it gets analysed and you get told later if you passed or have to resit your test. Do it every 5 years or so and it'd stop everyone having to resit the stupid test. Obv you need to do a min amount of miles and have to do all the things they do in the test, but it'd be in your own time and less pressure than with a stranger in the car.

Carson10

my grandmother drove until she was 90 about 3 years ago when she took ill for a few months and never took the car out of the garage again. She misses not driving now being back in full health at 93 living alone, and wants to get back behind the wheel again. We have kept her car in the garage at home, but I cant see it happening insurance wise.

Britians oldest drivers. Wish RTE would do a similar documentary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-IPj_C1CB8

[Deleted User]

My gran is over 80 and stopped driving at about 72 as she recognised that she wasn't as quick to react as she used to be. She was still a good driver when she decided to quit.

She's lucky in that she lives very near public transport and a big array of shops etc, and she gets one of the grandkids to drive her grocery shopping every week to Tesco and to Lidl or Aldi (she mischievously refers to Lidl or Aldi as 'The Poverty Shops'

). She's lucky though, there's plenty that don't have a bus stop a short walk away or family nearby.

My Grandad would have driven until he killed half the population, nothing would have convinced him that he wasn't every bit as sharp as he was at 30. Everyone else on the road was a terrible driver who caused him no end of trouble, nothing was ever his fault. He died suddenly as the issue was coming to a head, of a heart attack. Luckily not while at the wheel, though it could easily have been.

The Strawman Argument

Some of my family got rid of an an old relative's car a few years back when he was in the hospital after years of trying to get him off the road. When he got out he immediately went down to the bank and got a loan for a new car with his land down as collateral.

Point is, you basically can't do anything with these old fellas; it's their only source of independence and a good deal of them (especially if they live in the country) feel as it they're as good as dead without the car. The laws should be changed somewhat though, I agree.

looksee

I am 67, I think I am still a competent driver, I have been driving 45 years, I had an accident two weeks after passing my test first go (stupid noob reaction to a situation) and nothing since. One insurance claim for minor damage. No-one objects to being driven by me.

I would not object to being retested, but I think that everyone who is stopped for a driving offence - whether speeding, jumping lights, whatever, should have to be retested rather than fined. It is too easy to pay a fine, if they had to go to the trouble and expense of say a minimum of 2 mandatory lessons and a test they might be more careful. An age related test need not be expensive, it would quickly be obvious to a tester whether a person was fit to drive or not.

Candy_Girl

Ace Fast Figurine wrote: »

I am in my 70s. My driving is excellent still (of course we'd all say that wouldn't we). I drive a 2 litre saloon that I change every 2 years. I don't do huge milage but I enjoy driving. I would have no issue with a test every 2 years. I currently get regular medicals to ensure I'm fit to drive and would welcome a driving proficiency test. I know several people my age who are certainly a danger to themselves and others on the road. The unfortunate thing is that their cars are their lifelines. Bus pass etc is no good to us here as the nearest bus stop is 3 or 4 miles away and there is only one bus a day. Taking the ability to drive off some people is heartbreaking and can be the final eroding of a person's independence. Not an easy situation.

I know it's not an easy situation for those that are living far from public transport but the thing is that they are not only a danger to themselves but also to others. I totally understand but I travel with two of my children and they're put at risk by people that just don't have their wits about them. I've being saying it a long time but people over 70 should be retested every year. When I reach that age myself I'd welcome that to.