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ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE

Crann na Beatha

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denis o’brien

Comments

Barely There

Mrs Garth Brooks wrote: »

And they'll only increase those taxes again next year, once they get the water charges rolling and people paying up.

Hopefully the water charge will increase significantly over the next few years, given the current charge isn't nearly enough to cover water provision costs.

opinionated3

Barely There wrote: »

Hopefully the water charge will increase significantly over the next few years, given the current charge isn't nearly enough to cover water provision costs.

Obviously you're well off and can afford the taxes to pay off the bondholders. Congratulations on your success.

Caliden

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

You tell us.
We'd love to know.

Here is a budget calculator from PWC
http://download.pwc.com/ie/budget-2015/index.html

And here is the IW charge page:
http://www.water.ie/customer-applications/charges/

Let us know the result

100 euro worse off.

Thanks.

Barely There

opinionated3 wrote: »

Obviously you're well off and can afford the taxes to pay off the bondholders.

Godwin's Law for water-charge protestors :rolleyes:

Daith

Barely There wrote: »

Hopefully the water charge will increase significantly over the next few years, given the current charge isn't nearly enough to cover water provision costs.

What's the current charge?

Geuze

Mrs Garth Brooks wrote: »

Thing is, hasn't water been paid for through other taxes already. Introducing a new water charge is just a second way of charging for water. Its hardly fair on people.

Why we won’t be paying twice for water

During 2013 the Govt collected €60,837m, or 61bn approx. During 2013 the Govt spent €70,804, or €71bn approx.

The general Govt deficit was €9,967 or nearly 10bn.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/gfsa/governmentfinancestatisticsoctober2014/#.VFtxzPmsWSp

Currently the Central Govt pay grants to the local councils to run the 1000+ water and wastewater treatment plants.

The idea is that Govt grants to IW will fall, and be replaced by people paying water charges.

The costs to run the 1000+ plants shouldn’t change, but people will be paying for them directly, rather than then via Govt grants to councils.

So the Govt will spend less, and the fiscal deficit will fall, as it has to.

So nobody will be “paying twice”.

Yes, people will be paying a new tax/charge to help reduce the fiscal deficit.

So, to be clear, the LPT and water charges are new taxes/charges to help reduce public borrowing, and are part of the broadening of the tax base.

Of course, nobody likes new or higher taxes. An alternative to the LPT and water charges is higher consumption taxes or higher income taxes.

To people who say: “we already pay” – yes we already pay taxes, but they are not enough to cover public spending.

Caliden

How much would the plants cost to run if leaks were fixed given that 41% of all water usage is from leaks alone?

Barely There

Daith wrote: »

What's the current charge?

Use the link helpfully provided by another poster.

Little CuChulainn

Caliden wrote: »

How much would the plants cost to run if leaks were fixed given that 41% of all water usage is from leaks alone?

Probably a lot less.

Tinkersbell

Daith wrote: »

What's the current charge?

They're currently 'picking it out of their arse' as the bankers would say.

Kevin McCloud

Caliden wrote: »

How much would the plants cost to run if leaks were fixed given that 41% of all water usage is from leaks alone?

41% less than they currently are would be a good estimate.

Daith

Barely There wrote: »

Use the link helpfully provided by another poster.

I'm sorry? I thought we had to wait two weeks for the Government to tell us?

Barely There

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

41% less than they currently are would be a good estimate.

No, it would be a ridiculously inaccurate estimate.

mynameismud

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

Do you really need a link to something announced in the budget and all over the papers and Internet for the last few weeks?

And what about the IW costs?

BoJack Horseman

Caliden wrote: »

100 euro worse off.

Thanks.

In January everyone gets a €100 tax credit (or S/W allowance) for IW for the coming year.

So, its neutral in your case.

BoJack Horseman

Barely There wrote: »

No, it would be a ridiculously inaccurate estimate.

True.

Leak repair would eventually pay off through needing to treat a lower volume of water.

However most costs for the councils (and now IW) are fixed.

Savings estimates are tricky.

Tinkersbell

Daith wrote: »

I'm sorry? I thought we had to wait two weeks for the Government to tell us?

It'll be a calculated charge.
One based on what they think they can get away with and on how many votes it'll cost them.
We're now watching the state interfere with the pricing structure of a semi state company they set up to have the cost of water 'off the books'.
It's so funny to watch the floundering.

Banjo String

Barely There wrote: »

Hopefully the water charge will increase significantly over the next few years, given the current charge isn't nearly enough to cover water provision costs.

You should organise a protest March to try to influence the Govt to raise the prices of the water tax.

Make sure and report back now in how you get on. :pac:

mrsbyrne

Barely There wrote: »

Looks like the mask(no pun intended) is beginning to slip for the prime movers and shakers behind these water protests.

Gullible people are being played for fools by hard-left anarchists.

Luckily for the rest of society, there's nothing more stupid that a hard-leftie - guaranteed to shoot themselves in the foot eventually.

Agreed. They seemed astonished in the High Court yesterday thatwhile they were "filming" the Gardaí "attacking" "peacefull" protestors that the Gardaí had some film of their own.

Ghost Buster

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

Please, what a load of nonsense.

let the country be ruined over a few hundred euro of a water charge, some people really need to take a look at themselves.

And long may it continue creating jobs and improving the conditions and pay of those who spent years in university qualifying in many different science, engineering and IT fields. Sure lets artificially prevent people getting jobs and pay rises just out of begrudgery :rolleyes:.

I didnt single out the water charge but used ist as an example, the catylyst for much of what is currently happening in the country. I did mention the current political government and the cronyism and corruption Read my post again rather than imaging what i said:rolleyes:

Caliden

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

In January everyone gets a €100 tax credit (or S/W allowance) for IW for the coming year.

So, its neutral in your case.

So my original comment was correct then.

Banjo String

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Agreed. They seemed astonished in the High Court yesterday thatwhile they were "filming" the Gardaí "attacking" "peacefull" protestors that the Gardaí had some film of their own.

I doubt they were astonished I first learned that the Gardaí were wearing mini high tech digital cameras, while browsing through one of the various anti water/anti meter Facebook pages a few months ago.

Cuttlefish

Barely There wrote: »

So basically you're in a spot of financial difficulty, are jealous of those who have got more than you and would like to drag everyone down to your level so you'll feel better about yourself?

Read the post clearly, he said he CAN afford to pay

See Denis O'B is doing fine thank you very much from the crisis we are in

Siteserv - debts of €150m, €110m written off and left with us

Beacon Hospital - owns

BBs - owns, so when you buy your coffee n muffins there spare a thought

List goes on and on

I keep on saying it, people are fed up with the punitive measures being imposed,

Enough is enough!

Letters on the RTE news website are interesting reading eh!!

Oh! and by the way….. tis raining

Ghost Buster

Banjo String wrote: »

To start off with.

There have been quite a few relatively small amounts and guess what, they add up to a large amount which combined with a reduction in wages means that in the space of 6 year I and my wife and two kids were living comfortably and now are struggling.

Cuttlefish

Barely There wrote: »

Hopefully the water charge will increase significantly over the next few years, given the current charge isn't nearly enough to cover water provision costs.

I tell you what why don't you instead of paying just what they are looking for… pay a load more.

In essence given them some of your money for free.

How much are you willing to pay so?

Ohhh and the Prime Time report puts Ireland 7th highest with the current regime, this included the "allowances"

So you want to "jack" up the prices even more…what is your aim to get Ireland to the top of the leader board with regards to water charges??

Ghost Buster

Barely There wrote: »

I think they expect people to fund the services they wish to receive as a society from the taxes and charges imposed on them.
It's hardly rocket science.

Given that we can't really do without water - The argument about water charges is whether working people should continue to fund the system though their taxes or whether a broader charge should be applied to society at large.

Most of the people who turn up at these marches are too dumb to grasp this reasonably simple concept and have had the likes of the Shinners and the AAA whispering in their ears for years now that there is a magical way we can fund services without paying for them.

The bitching and moaning on this thread about broken political systems is a smoke-screen for the typical Irish attitude of 'how can I get away without paying my fair share'.

Another thing thats hardly rocket science is, if we are so broke how can we afford a utility which before even becoming properly established has a 'bonuses for all' policy, can have the likes of John Tierney and Hubert Kearns, who have a string of disasterous rolls behind them (Kearns left Sligo 80m in debt) running the utility on 6 figure sums, can give board rolls to the likes of Coleman Shanley who has no qualifications but whos family regularly donate to FG. Then we have our politicains who whilst governing a broke country can be amongst the worlds most highly paid. Combine this with all the waste, corruption and general paddy whackery.
So, how is this going on if we are broke. Its not rocket science:rolleyes:

[Deleted User]

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

Please, what a load of nonsense.

let the country be ruined over a few hundred euro of a water charge, some people really need to take a look at themselves.

And long may it continue creating jobs and improving the conditions and pay of those who spent years in university qualifying in many different science, engineering and IT fields. Sure lets artificially prevent people getting jobs and pay rises just out of begrudgery :rolleyes:.

a few hundred euro is what this is all about. That's the whole point. Its a few hundred in 2015 - what will it be in 2020??????

[Deleted User]

Barely There wrote: »

Hopefully the water charge will increase significantly over the next few years, given the current charge isn't nearly enough to cover water provision costs.

ha ha - well done - you're great craic!

:):):):)

Cuttlefish

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

In January everyone gets a €100 tax credit (or S/W allowance) for IW for the coming year.

So, its neutral in your case.

If people "buy" into this "€100 off your bill if you sign now before Christmas and be in the draw for a trip to two to Dublin and €100 spending money!"

Ye want your head examined!

Irish Steve

Mrs Garth Brooks wrote: »

Thing is, hasn't water been paid for through other taxes already. Introducing a new water charge is just a second way of charging for water. Its hardly fair on people.

AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!

Where's the head banging against the wall smiley when you need it.

This thread is nearly at the message count limit for one thread, and we're STILL getting the same stuff that was dealt with back in the first 100 messages.

So let's expand things a little, and see where we go.

WARNING, it's not going to be short reply.

TLDR summary. FF signed us up for it before the last elections, and it's going to happen, and if done properly it needs to happen, but IW as presently structured is the wrong way, the wrong people and the wrong culture to do it properly.

Ireland is the ONLY country in the OECD group that does not have a specific system for charging for water based on usage, with meters being a fundamental part of that system.

The EU has mandated a number of water conservation and quality measures, some of them nearly 15 years ago, which Ireland has been ducking and weaving around for years, and threatened with European Court of justice action as a result, which would lead to significant fines.

One of the requirements put in place by the IMF/Troika as a condition of the bail out was that a scheme for more appropriate management and charging for water be put in place, in order to get the state finances back into balance, and widen the tax base, and it was clearly in some of the manifestos that were put in the public domain before the 2011 election, and water charging had already been signed up to by the FF/Green coalition as part of the bail out, so like it or not, it was a done deal before the 2011 election.

The Bail out came about finally because of the collapse of the property bubble, and the parts of the banking system that had become over dependent and over committed to that one source of lending, but, and this is a BIG but, the Irish State finances were already badly over stretched, over committed, and in a bad way before the final straw that broke the system.

The government of the time were faced with 2 options, the first being to accept the terms (however onerous) of the IMF/Troika bailout, or default on the debts, which would have probably resulted in the total collapse of the remainder of the Irish economy, the exit of Ireland from the Euro, and the arrival of a different part of the IMF shortly afterwards, who would have come in with a clear agenda to completely shut down the existing state services, and rebuild them in a sustainable way, and this would also have terminated just about every social payment, state pension (earned or unearned) and a whole host of other severe issues that were unthinkable to the political elite and their Golden Circle, as it would have destroyed their lives and futures in terms of job security, pensions and every thing else that mattered to them.

As for which option should have been taken, the jury is still out on that, and the future of the Euro is still very much uncertain, unless we end up with a United States of Europe, with much more commonality of tax rates and structures than we have now, but that's a theme and issue for another day and a different thread.

That's history, we can't go back and rewrite it, or change it, how every much we might like to, as is becoming clearer with the publishing of the Trichet letter etc.

So, the here and now. Irish Water, as a concept, was put together as a state owned private company that would initially act as an umbrella organisation to oversee the water and waste water management functions that were previously carried out by (mainly) the local authorities at county council level, with the larger urban areas councils (Like Dublin) also having similar functions, with the intention longer term being that IW would become more than just an management operation, they would take over the entire operation from the local authorities.

The concept of conservation, with meters at the point of delivery to most premises was also part of the EU strategy, and that has started. With appropriate protection for the most vulnerable, metering IS the right way to deal with usage issues, but to be clear, most of the people on social welfare benefits schemes are not "the most vulnerable" in my definition of that term, and it IS appropriate that they should make an appropriate contribution for the water they use. There will be plenty of people in this thread that disagree with that last comment, but I'm not about to back down on that, nor am I going into details on why.

So, we now have Irish Water, and the intention is that IW will become responsible for the management, and supply of an acceptable quality of water to the state, and for dealing with the waste water (and it's contents) and treating that to ensure that there is no pollution risk to rivers, water courses and beaches.

The main focus of IW's operation will be in urban areas, they have no responsibility for rural houses that have their own private water source, and septic tanks or similar that are not connected to a shared public drainage system.

The intention is that the charges levied for water and waste water treatment will cover the cost of the services provided by IW, and that charge will be based on usage, as recorded by the meters.

That's the theory, the practise is somewhat different, due to all manner of issues that are deeply rooted in history.

FF "bought" the election in 1977 by doing away with local rates, and the like, and putting those charges onto general taxation, and we've seen the result, the local authorities have been cash strapped for years, and to make it worse, local politicians have promoted visible vote winning schemes in favour of non visible infrastructure, in order to buy votes for the next election, with the result that there are now massive problems with the existing water system in terms of capacity and leakage, over 40% of the water treated every day is lost through leakage, either in the distribution system, or in homes that have things like leaking taps, or WCs, or unknown faults under the floors, and there are similar issues with the waste water schemes, many of which are overloaded and ineffective, with the result being pollution or worse.

There have been a number of unsuccessful attempts to reintroduce water charges over the years, and all up to now have failed, for various reasons.

Like it or not, IW as a concept is going to happen, the government, (of whatever colour, flavour or persuasion) has no alternative due to the previously mentioned agreement and enacted EU legislation. In reality, it needs to happen, Ireland needs a more structured and organised method of harvesting, treating storing and distributing potable water to urban areas, and it also has to have a better structured and managed waste water treatment system in order to meet the increasing demands for purity of water courses, rivers and beaches that are expected and demanded both by EU legislation and the reasonable demands of the public.

What's totally messed up what should have been a straightforward process is the incompetence of the political system to recognise that the old days where anything was OK are long gone. 6 years of austerity has made the Irish public more discerning and less forgiving than they used to be, and some of the other issues we've seen in recent times with things like pension issues in the Board of the CRC, and plenty of other corruption and related issues from a detached and eliteist Golden Circle has meant that the Irish Public are no longer prepared to be told that there is no other way than that chosen by the Political Elite and their Golden Circle.

IW as presently implemented is wrong in so many ways,

The man at the top has a less than acceptable record where public funds are concerned, and has done nothing to demonstrate that he's changed in any way, so far, what we've seen of the IW ethos is more of the same snout in the trough bonus and "entitlement" culture that is endemic in the state sector, and unacceptable to many people as being no longer fit for purpose.

Things like a bonus system and culture that has no real performance requirements, excessive expenses and allowances. a staff gym at head office for a select few, these are things that might have been acceptable once the company was up and running and producing results, but before they've done anything in terms of engage with their customers, that's an example of how out of touch the top people are with reality, and the other reality is that they've not done even a mediocre job of engaging with their customers from day 1.

IW has been overstaffed from Day 1, with huge numbers parachuted in from the Local Authorities without any good reason other than that they are state employees, which effectively means that even if there's nothing for them to do, or that there are now 3 people to do one job, they can't be retired or otherwise moved out.

The meter installation scheme has been poorly handled, and not properly explained or managed, with many places not being metered, which defeats the concept of the user paying for their usage, which was supposed to be a foundation of the concept.

Nothing has been mentioned about the way that non residential water users are being dealt with, they've been paying water and waste water charges to the local authorities for years, but we've heard nothing about who is going to be receiving that revenue stream in the future

Make no mistake, IW as an organisation is absolutely required, and should be welcomed by the people it is designed to serve, water has to be taken out of the political sleeveen environment, and removed from the arena of inappropriate political influence, but NOT in the way that the same political elite have tried to do it, and not with huge numbers of semi state mentality staff who have already demonstrated a lack of ability to keep the existing network in a good condition. as shown by the massive leakage issues that are outstanding, and the excessive numbers of boil notices already affecting too many people. That's where the money wasted on things like gyms should have been directed, but that's where the elitist mentality gets into the way and why people like me despise what's being done in our name.

The other issues that then serve to make it even more confusing is the long term future of IW. I don't believe the weasel words of the political elite, we HAVE to have constitutional protection of IW to ensure that NO politician of any flavour or persuasion can decide to sell IW to the private sector without the specific and definite approval of a constitutional referendum.

The reason we have to have cast iron protection of the water systems and their management is because the political elite have demonstrated so clearly over the last 25 years that we CAN'T trust them to be honest when there are real and serious issues to be dealt with, and we CAN'T trust them to be acting in the best interest of the people, as has been seen with things like the expenses issues, the brown envelope corruption, and the back hander deals between politicians and big business, and the inappropriate pensions and other benefits that they've approved for themselves. That means that the people have to be able to have the final say over some of the things that used to be left to the politicians, because they have messed up so badly.

And yes, if we are paying water charges, in theory, other forms of direct taxation should reduce in direct proportion to the level of water charges, but while we've a massive deficit to be repaid, it's not going to happen to any significant degree, the brutal reality is that we need another property bubble and some significant inflation to reduce the relative value of the outstanding debt in order to get it down to manageable levels, but if that happens,( and it HAS been tried before, and failed) there's a real danger of the whole cycle repeating itself, and we'll be back to square 1 with no change, and no improvement in the overall position.

If Leo Varadkar is to be believed, they have got the message. I hope so, it's about time, what will be interesting to see is if they respond appropriately now, AND going forward, there are a lot of issues that they've been ignoring, despite promises to address them.

I'm not a member of any of the parties, and not "aligned" to any of them either, but I will say that if FG want to have any chance of a reasonable number of seats next time round, they are going to have to demonstrate some real leadership over the next few months, and start to deal with some of the issues that have been neglected or ignored over the last 3 plus years. and buying the election with short term bribes or tax cuts is unlikely to work in the way it used to, as people are at last waking up to the reality of the falseness of the old system, and the marches of recent weeks are a clear demonstration of that awareness.