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Child Item

Judge gives mother, guilty of manslaughter, suspended sentence.

Pocoyo

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/judge-gives-woman-suspended-sentence-for-sons-manslaughter-635602.html?utm_source=iosapp&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=sharebutton

How do women keep getting away with murder,She smothered her 8 year old son I am sick of hearing these stories more and more of these stories are being reported and the women tend to get light or no sentences on mental grounds.

An 8 year old child is dead.

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Pocoyo

Maphisto wrote: »

I don't know. Which is why I prefaced the remark as I did.

I think courts view the maternal bond as tighter.

Do you believe that? Parenting in this day and age is about conditioning,Many fathers are just as capable and have just as strong of a bond with their children as mothers do.

marienbad

Pocoyo wrote: »

Can you link one case of a ''Father'' murdering his child and receiving a suspended sentence on mental health grounds?

Can you link one case where a father went to jail ?

Pocoyo

marienbad wrote: »

Can you link one case where a father went to jail ?

http://www.joe.ie/news/current-affairs/father-jailed-for-murdering-baby-son/

Pocoyo

marienbad wrote: »

Can you link one case where a father went to jail ?

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFsQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishcentral.com%2Fnews%2Ffather-linked-to-embezzlement-killed-his-two-sons-217567611-237767141.html&ei=K--6U-q8IcOp7Aaz-IHoCQ&usg=AFQjCNHovbJ9DjKhSS498e16KtgnzVJfaw&sig2=UM0xkLCCz006ev3YJVZTSQ

Reformed Character

Pocoyo wrote: »

Internet crusader,I started on thread about a child abuctor on the run and this.

You try to hard do i have a bully?? Are you my personal nemesis? :pac:

He was a failed child abductor and he was not on the run, more hyperbole in hope of thanks.
As for this thread, she didn't murder anyone and so once again you are blowing things out of proportion.

[Deleted User]

Are there many murder cases where the perpetrator could be described as mentally stable at the time?

Awkward Badger

Pocoyo wrote: »

http://www.joe.ie/news/current-affairs/father-jailed-for-murdering-baby-son/

Not so sure that the difference between that case and this is the gender of the parent.

During the trial, evidence was given that showed the death was due to severe brain swelling that cut of the oxygen supply to Cameron’s brain.

Dr Peter Ingram, Deputy State Pathologist for Nothern Ireland, told the jury that he had found a number of bruises to both of Cameron’s arms, legs ,throat, chin and torso.

The doctor also discovered 14 rib fractures believed to be typical injuries related to child abuse.
Cameron had been in the care of his father for two days, following Leslie’s split from Cameron’s mother Sheree Black, before being brought to the hospital where he eventually died.

Judge Mr Justice Ben Stephens told Leslie had shown no insight or remorse for his actions, describing him as a “dishonest and deeply manipulative individual”.

And the other case you linked to hasn't even gone to trial yet.

Maphisto

Pocoyo wrote: »

Do you believe that? ,

Well I certainly believe the part where I said I don't know.

Parenting in this day and age is about conditioning

I don't know what that means.

Many fathers are just as capable and have just as strong of a bond with their children as mothers do.

OK, but you are agreeing with my point (which was in itself not a stong one), but by saying that "many fathers are just as capable" you suggest that a proportion are not. And what are they as capable as - Mothers!

marienbad

Pocoyo wrote: »

http://www.joe.ie/news/current-affairs/father-jailed-for-murdering-baby-son/

Thanks for that. Not comparing like with like though. I would assume if this lad had been left with mother for 2 days and got the same injuries she would also be in jail.

Depression is a terrible,terrible thing . Most people have no idea.

Pocoyo

Maphisto wrote: »

OK, but you are agreeing with my point (which was in itself not a stong one), but by saying that "many fathers are just as capable" you suggest that a proportion are not. And what are they as capable as - Mothers!

You were the one quoting a legal system that devalues fathers and acts against their human rights.

What are your views on the issue you failed to respond.

Pocoyo

marienbad wrote: »

Thanks for that. Not comparing like with like though. I would assume if this lad had been left with mother for 2 days and got the same injuries she would also be in jail.

Depression is a terrible,terrible thing . Most people have no idea.

Rubbish link me a case of a father escaping jail on grounds of mental health.
Can dads not get depression and then murder their children,Or is this simply a female infliction that negates all evil and responsibility?

Reformed Character

Pocoyo wrote: »

Rubbish link me a case of a father escaping jail on grounds of mental health.
Can dads not get depression and then murder their children,Or is this simply a female infliction that negates all evil and responsibility?

There was no murder, why do you keep going on about murder when no murder occurred?

[Deleted User]

Reformed Character wrote: »

There was no murder, why do you keep going on about murder when no murder occurred?

And Sean Quinn didn't know what he was signing.

Maphisto

Pocoyo wrote: »

You were the one quoting a legal system that devalues fathers and acts against their human rights.

What are your views on the issue you failed to respond.

I'm not sure what you want me to respond to.

Do I think the bond between a Mother and child is different to that of a Father and child. If that's the question I already said that I don't know, but I suspect it to be the case.

dirtyden

Whilst suffering from a severe mental illness this poor woman did something which will torment her more than any life sentence. How anyone can see any benefit in sending her to prison is beyond me. She needs help not punishment. She has been forgiven by the rest of her family who understand that she was not in a proper mental state when she smothered her son. I don't see how anyone here can be a better judge. The trial judge appears to have been on the money here in my opinion.

marienbad

Pocoyo wrote: »

Rubbish link me a case of a father escaping jail on grounds of mental health.
Can dads not get depression and then murder their children,Or is this simply a female infliction that negates all evil and responsibility?

Do you believe in depression ? The issue here is that she is now getting the medical care that if it had been provided earlier may have averted this tragedy.

As for providing a link on a similar case involving a father I wouldn't even know where to look and don't really see the relevance. Each case is decided on its own merits.

This case was a depressed woman ,your link was a pathologically violent man , not even in the same continent never mind the same ballpark.

Pawwed Rig

Interesting blog on insanity verdicts relating to killings in Ireland

http://abigailrieley.com/wordpress/index.php/2009/02/04/case-mind-boggling-sadness/

Pro Hoc Vice

Bongalongherb wrote: »

It's murder, plain and simple. A suspended sentence :eek: the whole justice system in this backward country is a shambles.

I really am getting fed up to my eye teeth of this rubbish, this was a mother who through her own hand took the life of her child, a child she gave birth to and raised for eight years. She while suffering a terrible illness did that, and she will have to live with that horrible fact for her own life, I can only guess what this women must go through on a daily basis.

I think we have a compassionate legal system, that thankfully does not take an eye for an eye, but as a society we give even to those who have done things none of us can forgive, but yes we give compassion.

Could you have gone into that court, could you have listened to that horrific evidence and then against all you feel find that most difficult of things compassion and love, I hope you could or otherwise we are undeserving of justice or compassion. There but for the grace etc. We thankfully are human with some touch of kindness, but after reading some of the post on here I wonder.

dj jarvis

egghead. wrote: »

People do terrible things when depressed, ita an illness, the brain doesn't be thinking straight, bastard of a disease.

i agree 100% - but if it was a man suffering the same illness as this mother was, i dont think he would be getting a suspended sentence and allowed go on his way.

there does appear to be double standard towards men - and i can see why that would wind some people up.

a neighbour of mine back in the early 80's knifed her husband , killed him stone dead on the kitchen floor ,
at her trial , she claimed he was violently abusing her , but had no police reports , or medical proof to back up her claim - still walked , was even out on bail until the trail,
dont get me wrong , this lad was a prick by all accounts , but from what i could gather locally at the time - she attacked him as he was eating his dinner.

i dont think a bloke would ever walk from that one

but, as you said , a bastard of an illness

hatrickpatrick

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

and the mother can't possibly have been sane.

Not necessarily disagreeing with the sentencing in this case, but the presumption of insanity for mothers who kill their children is literally never applied to fathers who do the same.

Before any facts are known, the general reaction to a child killing mother is "I hope she gets the help she deserves", while the reaction to a child killing after is "what an evil monster".

Am I the only one who finds this trend deeply offensive?

dj jarvis

dirtyden wrote: »

Whilst suffering from a severe mental illness this poor woman did something which will torment her more than any life sentence. How anyone can see any benefit in sending her to prison is beyond me. She needs help not punishment. She has been forgiven by the rest of her family who understand that she was not in a proper mental state when she smothered her son. I don't see how anyone here can be a better judge. The trial judge appears to have been on the money here in my opinion.

again 100% - on the money as you said

but if it was a man - would the outcome have been the same? - i fear not,
and then it would not be a compassionate and caring legal system , not for a man anyway

IMO - she got the correct sentence and should be left alone

Pro Hoc Vice

dj jarvis wrote: »

i agree 100% - but if it was a man suffering the same illness as this mother was, i dont think he would be getting a suspended sentence and allowed go on his way.

there does appear to be double standard towards men - and i can see why that would wind some people up.

a neighbour of mine back in the early 80's knifed her husband , killed him stone dead on the kitchen floor ,
at her trial , she claimed he was violently abusing her , but had no police reports , or medical proof to back up her claim - still walked , was even out on bail until the trail,
dont get me wrong , this lad was a prick by all accounts , but from what i could gather locally at the time - she attacked him as he was eating his dinner.

i dont think a bloke would ever walk from that one

but, as you said , a bastard of an illness

http://www.thejournal.ie/report-looks-at-individualised-and-discretionary-nature-of-irish-sentencing-837325-Mar2013/

"Suspended sentences
Although a prison sentence will be imposed in most cases of manslaughter, two rare suspended sentences were recorded between 2007 and 2012.
A mother-of-four was given a five-year suspended sentence after being found guilty of the manslaughter of her husband. Their long marriage had been marked by violence and excessive drinking. The accused hit her husband in the head with a hammer 23 times while he slept. Both the defence and prosecution agreed she was suffering from a mental disorder and severe depression at the time. She was found guilty of manslaughter by diminished responsibility.
The trial judge said that no matter how difficult people’s lives are, they cannot take the law into their own hands. In suspending the five-year jail term, he stated that it was significant her four children did not want her to go to prison.
Similarly, a teenage boy who was handed a six-year sentence had it suspended after being convicted of provocation manslaughter. His father was an alcoholic and had been sent to buy food for the household. When he came home drunk in the early hours of the morning with no dinner, the defendant grabbed him and punched him. He left him outside the house, where he had fallen, with a pillow and duvet. He was found dead the next morning.
The trial judge said it was only in extraordinarily exceptional circumstances that custody for an unlawful killing could not be imposed – and that this was one such case, because the defendant had just turned 18, had no previous convictions, no propensity for violence and that there was no evidence that he was a risk to others."

My own personal view a father in exactly the same circumstances would get a suspended sentence. It is very very rare to get such a sentence. I am not aware of any case involved a father in similar circumstances in any case.

Maphisto

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Not necessarily disagreeing with the sentencing in this case, but the presumption of insanity for mothers who kill their children is literally never applied to fathers who do the same.

Before any facts are known, the general reaction to a child killing mother is "I hope she gets the help she deserves", while the reaction to a child killing after is "what an evil monster".

Am I the only one who finds this trend deeply offensive?

Put like that - I agree, but as a couple of people said above these things are dealt with case by case.

The two examples we have in this thread are the Mother who suffocated her child before attempting suicide versus the Ryan Leslie case (which was just bloody awful).

Sulla Felix

Maphisto wrote: »

I don't know tbh - I suspect that the bond between Mother and child is different to Father and child. Women, I suspect commit significantly less violent offences than men.

Every study I've ever seen shows the contrary.
From this '99 study for the US (you're not going tofind numbers for Ireland, we just don't seem to do the statistical grinding that they do in other countries. Might be able to find some UK figures though) http://web.archive.org/web/20040206092557/http:/www.calib.com/nccanch/chma99.pdf
The ratio of infanticide there by women:men is 3:1. Of 1000 fatalities recorded, 31.5% were perpetrated by the mother alone, 10.7% by the father alone. Both acting together came out at 20%.

Oh, another tidbit from the study murder-suicide of one parent and children is more common amongst women (like this case), murder suicide of self, spouse and children is more common amongst men but is still much less common over all.

Gael23

The woman has severe mental health problems.
I'm actually a bit surprised her defence didn't try to have her acquitted on grounds on insanity.

Pro Hoc Vice

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Not necessarily disagreeing with the sentencing in this case, but the presumption of insanity for mothers who kill their children is literally never applied to fathers who do the same.

Before any facts are known, the general reaction to a child killing mother is "I hope she gets the help she deserves", while the reaction to a child killing after is "what an evil monster".

Am I the only one who finds this trend deeply offensive?

I'm trying to remember any such case involving a father and can not find any. My own memory is that any case I can remember the father committed suicide.

The Sanjeev Chada trial will be in November this year.

hatrickpatrick

Maphisto wrote: »

Put like that - I agree, but as a couple of people said above these things are dealt with case by case.

The two examples we have in this thread are the Mother who suffocated her child before attempting suicide versus the Ryan Leslie case (which was just bloody awful).

Sure, I'm just pointing out that society's default reaction when it's a woman seems to be "God, what was wrong with her, why would she do that" whereas with a man it seems to be "another monstrous psychopath. Hang him."

Pro Hoc Vice

ryanf1 wrote: »

The woman has severe mental health problems.
I'm actually a bit surprised her defence didn't try to have her acquitted on grounds on insanity.

If a person is insane, then they usually can not plead, and so would be detained in the central mental hospital.

Pawwed Rig

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Sure, I'm just pointing out that society's default reaction when it's a woman seems to be "God, what was wrong with her, why would she do that" whereas with a man it seems to be "another monstrous psychopath. Hang him."

Along with a wide held opinion of a mother having a bond with the child that the father doesn't have which is absolute nonsense.

Pro Hoc Vice

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Sure, I'm just pointing out that society's default reaction when it's a woman seems to be "God, what was wrong with her, why would she do that" whereas with a man it seems to be "another monstrous psychopath. Hang him."

I don't agree the closest father case http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/sanjeev-chada-charged-murder-funeral-2116243

I am not aware of any calls for throw away the key yet.