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Equality, sexism, feminism, etc. *Read Mod Note in 1st Post**

Dave!

Hey folks,

I realise I'm taking my life in my hands by raising this, but it's probably safer to do it here than Twitter, where people are routinely garrotted for questioning any of the feminist received wisdom.

I'll not bother with a long post about it, but a few examples come to mind recently of companies/governments/men coming under pressure from feminist activists (online and in print media) for perpetuating the disproportionately male balance or bias in various fields:

Gender quotas in nominations for political parties*
No women speakers at the opening of the Rosie Hackett Bridge
Under-representation of women in the IT industry
World Cup TV coverage panel—I think it was a station in either Finland or Sweden which was lauded for having a majority of women on its panel, with the comparison drawn against RTÉ, which had a bunch of old men
Women lead characters in computer games! There was some controversy when a gaming company said that they weren't going to add a woman lead character because it was too much work
"Every day sexism" in language and other areas

*This is a bigger issue which would probably take up a separate thread

I'm quite aware that there are still outstanding issues in relation to gender equality (pay parity), women's rights (abortion), sexist culture, etc., and I fully support moves towards fixing those and other issues. And some of the things that I listed above are genuine problems—I'm just listing them all off the top of my head.

I do cringe a little though when certain issues are raised.

Am I just being a jerk because I'm a privileged middle-class white male, who doesn't have to deal with this stuff daily?
Should there really be exact 50/50 representation for every single thing?
Is it not okay that some things are skewed more in one direction, and others are skewed more in another?
Should there be 50% men on any panel where the show is geared towards females?
What about representation of minorities—should every panel contain at least one female, black, gay, traveller for maximum equality?

MOD NOTE:

El Guapo! wrote: »

I've had to delete a truck load of crap in this thread already. You're all welcome to discuss the topic at hand but do not post any sexist "jokes", and keep any anti-women or anti-men bile to yourselves please. You all know where the line is. Cross it and you will receive a ban. Fair warning.

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Buzz Killington the third

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Equally if you label yourself a feminist, you're labelled a man-hater and no distinction is made for varying extremes within this extremely broad term.

Waste of time debating it on AH and it never, ever ends well. I don't bother my arse because all kinds of assumptions are made about me by some posters and it's not very pleasant.

Vincent Brown did a show about women's rights a few months ago and when a few women in the audience said they were scared to call themselves feminists because of the image that came with it, which they felt came from extreme feminists themselves, the audience almost turned on them.

Dravokivich

Buzz Killington the third wrote: »

Vincent Brown did a show about women's rights a few months ago and when a few women in the audience said they were scared to call themselves feminists because of the image that came with it, which they felt came from extreme feminists themselves, the audience almost turned on them.

Jaysis, what a way to prove their point.

Buzz Killington the third

Dravokivich wrote: »

Jaysis, what a way to prove their point.

Exactly. The extremists get their views heard the most because even if a woman tells them to shut up they'll get branded as anti-women.

ancapailldorcha

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Female Shepard is okay. There was a big deal made out of the voice actor, but, after I played as her, I wasn't too impressed. They took different viewpoints of the characters, but they were about equal in ability.

I prefer the male Shepard as he seems a bit less emotional which would seem more realistic for a seasoned soldier. I'm a big fan of Jennifer Hale at the same time.

They were exactly the same in terms of ability. My main qualm was that there was very little gender specific dialogue.

Dave!

OldGoat wrote: »

Gender quote-AH

</thread>

Muise...

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Refractory period, Muise. Imagining orgasming without any feeling of arousal afterwards

I agree with your opinions on written characters. One author on twitter said that they 'wrote their characters traits andn flipped a coin to decide what gender it was'. :rolleyes: I can see where they're coming from, but it was a bit too self-pat backing.

But, there should be more female characters as both villains and heroes. The more female characters there will be is the more female characters that will be created....female :P

Hey, I wasn't looking to swap, but novelty is always good!

If people want to see more female villains and heroes, there is nothing to stop them writing such characters themselves.

Links234

Muise... wrote: »

[Not a gamer]

Is the call for more female characters aimed at getting more women to play?

You don't need to get more women to play, they're already playing!

Nearly half of all gamers are women.

hatrickpatrick

As I've said many times about feminism, I don't oppose it because I don't believe in gender equality, I oppose it because I don't believe in any of the extra causes it has picked up and merged in with over the years, from censorship to telling women what to do (Marissa Meyers and her suggestive photoshoots for instance, if she wants to do it nobody should be telling her not to because it doesn't fit an agenda she doesn't even subscribe to)

hatrickpatrick

To sum up my misgivings, in fact, I would say that many feminists believe that something which is entirely consensual can still be morally wrong, and this is a fundamental point which I am diametrically opposed to. But that still doesn't mean I'm anti equality.

Muise...

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

To sum up my misgivings, in fact, I would say that many feminists believe that something which is entry consensual can still be morally wrong, and this is a fundamental point which I am diametrically opposed to. But that still doesn't mean I'm anti equality.

'entry consensual'

is that what they're calling it these days? :pac:

FunLover18

Muise... wrote: »

Hey, I wasn't looking to swap, but novelty is always good!

If people want to see more female villains and heroes, there is nothing to stop them writing such characters themselves.

I've always thought this myself. Women always seem to be giving out about men writing about men or when they write about women they do it with their mysoginistic glasses on.

I think the problem is with the movie/tv execs who seem to think there isn't an audience for stuff based around women. It's certainly not a problem in the literary world so there's obviously something funny going on. It's like the movie industry thinks women only like rom coms and dramas. Women in action/adventure movies are usually only there for eyecandy (I'm thinking of Maichel Bay's Transformers here). Then of course you look at something like Sex And The City and think "Well, you're not really helping yourselves there, are you?" That show was written primarily by women for women and the whole series revolves around finding a man.

hatrickpatrick

Muise... wrote: »

'entry consensual'

is that what they're calling it these days? :pac:

Haha that's just what they call it when you post from an iPhone and don't proofread

Muise...

FunLover18 wrote: »

I've always thought this myself. Women always seem to be giving out about men writing about men or when they write about women they do it with their mysoginistic glasses on.

I think the problem is with the movie/tv execs who seem to think there isn't an audience for stuff based around women. It's certainly not a problem in the literary world so there's obviously something funny going on. It's like the movie industry thinks women only like rom coms and dramas. Women in action/adventure movies are usually only there for eyecandy (I'm thinking of Maichel Bay's Transformers here). Then of course you look at something like Sex And The City and think "Well, you're not really helping yourselves there, are you?" That show was written primarily by women for women and the whole series revolves around finding a man.

This woman is a writer - not character stuff, but still wouldn't ever tell other writers what to do. That's not a reader's business. I think the idea of forcing strong female role models into fiction (where they already exist!) is as daft as the idea that women are muses rather than artists in their own right.

As for SATC - primarily written by gay men and straight women, so it's best viewed as a drag revue, through the lens of a fabulous champagne flute, rather than as a drama or commentary about women.

Tony EH

Links234 wrote: »

You don't need to get more women to play, they're already playing!

Nearly half of all gamers are women.

I simply just, flat out, do not believe that.

ancapailldorcha

Tony EH wrote: »

I simply just, flat out, do not believe that.

I just skimmed over it but if they're counting cow clickers then it could well be true.

smoking_kills

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I just skimmed over it but if they're counting cow clickers then it could well be true.

They are, candy crush, mobile gaming, all included.

Amirani

Reindeer wrote: »

I would argue your view is the simplistic one. I have no real 'view' or bias on the subject of the genders being equal - they just aren't. In practice, men and women are not equal - that is; they are not the same. We act, react, think, and interact in society differently.

Again, all of these can be applied to a comparison between you and me. However, there is no legal distinctions highlighting our differences.

Reindeer wrote: »

It has more to do with hormones and how our brains are designed, if scientists and psychologists are to be believed. My statement was more about how we should appreciate the differences instead of using them to divide us - significantly more complex than your rather simplistic, knee-jerk response.

Different people have different hormone levels and brain structures. There's obviously male/female differences but often they can be less than certain male/male or female/female differences. Other factors can be much more influential in this regard.

I'd favour a constitution and statute book that is as gender-neutral as possible. This should also extend to societal views to a large degree. I'm curious as to how you think differences should be appreciated, what form would this appreciation take?

Tony EH

smoking_kills wrote: »

They are, candy crush, mobile gaming, all included.

I've worked in the industry in the past and know people who currently work in the industry now, including the mobile sector.

But, even if we factor in casual material, such as the limited mobile games area or browser games, whose demographic was/is 25 - 45 year old females, I still simply cannot accept that there is a 50/50 split among "gamers". It sounds like a nice soundbite, but that's where it ends.

Certainly, big money, Triple AAA PC and console games are aimed at males, because they are the target demographic by a huge margin.

[Deleted User]

Muise... wrote: »

Hey, I wasn't looking to swap, but novelty is always good!

If people want to see more female villains and heroes, there is nothing to stop them writing such characters themselves.

Women who try to submit games get harassed and threatened so, there's plenty there it seems

Emily Blunt was kick ass in Edge of Tomorrow. Not a hanger on or "pls save me /flutter" just an awesome soldier in her own right. We need more of that

smoking_kills

Tony EH wrote: »

I've worked in the industry in the past and know people who currently work in the industry now, including the mobile sector.

But, even if we factor in casual material, such as the limited mobile games area or browser games, whose demographic was/is 25 - 45 year old females, I still simply cannot accept that there is a 50/50 split among "gamers". It sounds like a nice soundbite, but that's where it ends.

Certainly, big money, Triple AAA PC and console games are aimed at males, because they are the target demographic by a huge margin.

Yeah agreed, Angrybirds made about 200 million last year. GTA 5 made 2 billion, quite a difference.

[Deleted User]

smoking_kills wrote: »

Yeah agreed, Angrybirds made about 200 million last year. GTA 5 made 2 billion, quite a difference.

In that they're nothing alike?

Amirani

smoking_kills wrote: »

Yeah agreed, Angrybirds made about 200 million last year. GTA 5 made 2 billion, quite a difference.

Why would monetary spend be an effective measure of gender participation in gaming? Surely hours played should be all you're looking at?

Tony EH

smoking_kills wrote: »

Yeah agreed, Angrybirds made about 200 million last year. GTA 5 made 2 billion, quite a difference.

And there's your reason why the gaming industry is geared toward men.

They pay for their games.

The women I know wouldn't dream of paying 40 Euro for something as "silly" as a game. But, they'll happily ask me to download a version of Angry Birds to their phone, or sign up to Farmville so they can trade pink cows with their sister.

[Deleted User]

Tony EH wrote: »

And there's your reason why the gaming industry is geared toward men.

They pay for their games.
.

Yeah of course I'll just go uninstall steam and all my games and dvd games so

smoking_kills

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Why would monetary spend be an effective measure of gender participation in gaming? Surely hours played should be all you're looking at?

The ESR report included Mobile gaming and candy crush and the like, So when folk say women are 50% of the gaming community, it should be put into context.

There is an obvious reason for the lack of women leads in games, especially the tripple A titles that get attacked for the lack of a female lead. It may be that simply they are not being purchased by female gamers, or not in enough numbers.

If your selling a game to an overwhelmingly male audience, makes sence to have a male lead.

bluewolf
In that they're nothing alike?

In that I know plent of women who play angry birds, but not one who plays GTA.

Links234

Tony EH wrote: »

The women I know wouldn't dream of paying 40 Euro for something as "silly" as a game.

I wouldn't pay 40 euro for a game, but that's more because I generally don't buy at release and just wait for the Steam sale :pac: Dark Souls, Tomb Raider, Dragon Age for €5? You're laughin

Dishonored was the last time I bought a game at release and payed full price.

But this idea that women only play Angry Birds and Farmville? Not in my experience, I'm a gamer, my girlfriend's a gamer, my sister's a gamer, and I think most of our friends are gamers.

Tony EH

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah of course I'll just go uninstall steam and all my games and dvd games so

I take it from that comment that you are a girl.

Great, you enjoy triple AAA games. TBH, I wish more girls did, even if it was was only to banish the snooty attitude that a lot of women have toward the pastime.

However, the simple fact is that girls are in the minority when it comes to buying big name games and indie games too.

Business only cares about its profit, it doesn't care what's between your legs.

Unfortunate, but there it is.

[Deleted User]

And yet BG, BG2 had no problem including female chars as a default option, description "females are equal to their male counterparts in every way", all the way back in the 90s+
Dragon Age has female PCs too. I don't see why another other game maker would say oh it's too much effort and "a reality of development" and no point. Plenty of point.

Tony EH

Links234 wrote: »

I wouldn't pay 40 euro for a game, but that's more because I generally don't buy at release and just wait for the Steam sale :pac: Dark Souls, Tomb Raider, Dragon Age for €5? You're laughin Dishonored was the last time I bought a game at release and payed full price.

That's you.

But, by and large, the people who do buy released games on the first day and through the first week are males.

Links234 wrote: »

But this idea that women only play Angry Birds and Farmville?

I didn't say that.

Tony EH

bluewolf wrote: »

And yet BG, BG2 had no problem including female chars as a default option, description "females are equal to their male counterparts in every way", all the way back in the 90s+
Dragon Age has female PCs too. I don't see why another other game maker would say oh it's too much effort and "a reality of development" and no point. Plenty of point.

There are a lot of games that have, or can have female characters, especially in the likes of hardcore and softcore RPGs, such a 'Dragon Age'. That's not the point.

The point is that the buying audience remain largely male. You can certainly bet your life that males were buying 'Dragon Age' in far greater numbers than females were.