[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Regulations will come into effect on March 1st 2014 and the Code of Practice to accompany them will, we understand be published by the Department in the coming months.
martinn123 wrote: » Correct me if I am wrong, but did you not post a copy of a Document, which stated " supply registered number" If APPLICABLE I'm on I Pad and can't find it.
W123-80's wrote: » I understand somewhat the theory behind these new reg. It just seems over the top to completely stop self builders from doing just that. In any other walk of life I can pretty much do/make for myself what I want once it's legal and I operate to whatever standards are required. Why am I not allowed to build a house for myself? If I meet all regulations, have an engineer sign off that all requirements are met, why do I HAVE to employ a third party/middle man do do these checks for me. At the end of the day most contractors will sub contract. Why can I not cut the contractor/middle man out, meet all regulations and build my own house. It seems very unfair to me.
sydthebeat wrote: » The cif are compiling a registry of building contractors. Each contractor is given a reg number which must be submitted as part of the commencement documents.
sydthebeat wrote: » There is amendments proposed to those documents. So currently this number is proposed.
NOTICE OF ASSIGNMENT OF BUILDER Building Control Authority 1. This notice of assignment relates to the following building or works: ............................................................................................................................................. ............................................................................................................................................. 2. As the building owner, I have assigned the following person as Builder of the building or works and I am satisfied that they are competent to undertake the works so assigned on my behalf. Builder’s Name: ................................................................................................................ Address: ............................................................................................................................. ............................................................................................................................................. Tel.: ................................ Fax: ........................... Email: ................................................. Construction Industry Register Ireland Registration No (where applicable).: .......... 3. I undertake to notify the Building Control Authority in writing of any change in the person assigned as builder of the b u i l d i n g o r works as notified herein. Building Owner’s Signature: ................................... Date: ..........................................
martinn123 wrote: » No I found it I take the words "where Applicable " literally, you may be registered , or not..
sydthebeat wrote: » As I've said above, there are changes proposed to that
W123-80's wrote: » If a person is willing to build their own house by hiring competent and certified tradesmen, paying VAT on all jobs along the way, getting an engineer to sign off according to the regs, they should be entitled to do so. .
competent and certified tradesmen
martinn123 wrote: » Yes there are changes proposed to that Document From your post #194, you posted a link to these proposed changes. It is proposed to ADD the Words " Registration Number...if Applicable " to the Document.
I take the words "where Applicable " literally, you may be registered , or not..
3.3 Builder’s Role The Builder shall carry out the works in accordance with the plans and specifications of the professional design team, their specialists and sub-consultants as necessary and have regard to these in accordance with the requirements of the Building Regulations. The Builder (company or sole trader) should - (a) accept from the Building Owner the assignment to build and supervise the project building or works outlined in the Commencement Notice; (b) familiarise themselves with the drawings, specifications and documents lodged with the Commencement Notice;(c) ensure a Competent Person is assigned to oversee the Construction works; (d) co-operate with the design team, the Assigned Certifier and other certifiers; (e) ensure that the workmanship complies with the requirements of the Building Regulations; (f) ensure that materials which they select and for which they are responsible comply with the requirements of the Building Regulations; (g) sign the Certificate of Compliance (completion); (h) provide to the Assigned Certifier, such documents for which they are responsible, as may assist the Assigned Certifier to collate particulars for the purposes of handover and certification, and/or for further submissions to the Building Control Authority; (i) ensure the coordination and provision of all test certificates and confirmations to the satisfaction of the Assigned Certifier or other designated inspectors or certifiers providing Ancillary Certificates; and (i)(j) Maintain records.
“Competent Person”: a person is deemed to be a competent person where, having regard to the task he or she is required to perform and taking account of the size and/or complexity of the building or works, the person possesses sufficient training, experience and knowledge appropriate to the nature of the work to be undertaken;
sydthebeat wrote: » Yes thats it. Again, we are talking about something proposed so nothing is set in stone yet... but id argue against your reading of "where applicable" means you may not be registered in (as of yet) undisclosed situations. who knows what those situations are.
sydthebeat wrote: Interestingly ive just had a look at the draft code of practise and by my reading of it even if a self builder names themselves as the "builder" they still must engage a "competent person" to oversee the work. note that this person appears to be separate and distinct from the "assigned certifier" so by my reading a self builder still must engage a "competent person" to oversee work, separate from an architect / engineer / surveyor
martinn123 wrote: » It does not use the work " engage", so again I thing you are jumping to conclusions, on words, open to various interpretation. .
martinn123 wrote: » having ''Appointed'' himself ''Builder'' whats to prevent him, ''Appointing'' himself as ''Competent Person''
sydthebeat wrote: » nothing, once they comply with the definition of 'competent person' which i included above for that exact purpose. If self builders have the required 'training, experience and knowledge' then there's nothing stopping them as far as i can see. From the 'assigned certifiers' point of view; can the building owner, builder and competent person be one and the same?? i think that needs clarification.
martinn123 wrote: » ...but the objective is to have a remedy, when things go wrong, rather than abandoning the House-holder as is currently the position.
martinn123 wrote: » the Final Myth we need to discuss is the notion that the Certifyer will need to be on site all day every day.
7. Construction Stage Inspection – by Certifiers 7.1 Inspection Plan The certifiers shall adopt an appropriate Inspection Plan which takes full account of relevant factors for the building work concerned. Relevant factors should be assessed at the outset and regularly reviewed so that effective control is maintained for the duration of each project, with adequate site inspections and records sufficient to demonstrate the application of reasonable skill and care. The building control process, in order to be effective, requires an Inspection Plan of appropriate intensity and frequency. However, it is not practicable for every item of work to which the Building Regulations relate to be examined. The supervision by the Builder is, therefore, of critical importance. The test of the Inspection Plan will be its success in achieving reasonable standards of health and safety in or about buildings, energy conservation, accessibility and sustainability for building users. Inspection staff should use professional skill and judgement in their selection of priorities for inspection within the certifier’s stated policy. Depending on the complexity of the project, such inspections may need to be carried out by personnel with greater expertise. Inspection staff should be briefed by their employer and, where necessary, by the Assigned Certifier on the Design lodged to the Building Control Authority and on appropriate inspections and tests to carry out. 7.1.1 Factors in Determining Inspection Plan The Inspection Plan is dependent on many factors including - (a) type of building, type of construction and expertise of the Builder; (b) how complicated or relatively straightforward the method of construction is; (c) whether recent experience indicates current problems in interpreting and/or achieving compliance with certain requirements; (d) how serious the consequences of a particular contravention might be; (e) the impracticability or impossibility of subsequent inspection of closed up work; and (f) speed of construction, or methods of fast track construction. 7.1.17.1.2 Inspection Subject to the appropriate professional judgement or risk assessment, and that it is not practicable for every item of work to which the requirements of the Building Regulations relate to be examined, inspection should normally be made of: (a) elements and components, the failure of which would, in the opinion of the certifier, be significant; (b) all works which, in the opinion of the certifier, constitute unusual designs or methods of construction; (c) work relating to fire safety; (d) any types of work, construction, equipment or material which could, if not verified, cause defects which would, in the opinion of the certifier or designated inspector, be seriously detrimental to the fundamental purposes of the Building Regulations; and (e) any additional areas of work necessary for the subsequent issue of a certificate at completion. 7.2 Inspection frequency The most important thing is to have an appropriate Inspection Plan; the scope and frequency of inspection should be determined and incorporated in a formal written plan. This plan should be kept under review as the project proceeds. It should take into account the Inspection Plan factors above. Periodic inspection should be carried depending on the size and nature of the particular building project. This should include critical milestone inspections and inspections as set out in the Inspection Notification Framework (INF).
DOCARCH wrote: » That's one of the problems with the new regs, situation remains the same (or worse)...householder pretty much left adrift with even less (...no) involvement by the local authority/Building Control.
The objective of the Reg's is in my view to rely on a Certificate as in coming from a Regulated Person, backed up by the necessary Insurances.
DOCARCH wrote: » The objective of the Reg's is in my view to rely on a Certificate as in coming from a Regulated Person, backed up by the necessary Insurances. Yes, but you still have to go through the process of suing that person (...or suing the right person), go to court and prove negligence.
DOCARCH wrote: A professionals PI insurance does not act as some form of building insurance against defects.
martinn123 wrote: » The Document, syd posted above is a useful Template towards an Inspection Schedule, however I am also pointing out it does not say the certifyer has to be on-site every day. The problem here seems to be the Wording of the Cert.
sydthebeat wrote: » no theres no prescribed wording that the certifier has to be on site every day, its not envisaged by the compilers of the code of practise that they would have..... however.... an awful lot of the inspection schedule is left to "the opinion of the certifier". the wording of teh certification is extremely onerous in that the certifier accepts responsibility for all works, by everybody, and all materials and processes, without qualification. therefore the certifier is left with the reponsibility to determine what the frequency should be and how often works need to be inspected. Most certifiers that you ask would say that that certification would require an inspection (conservatively) almost every - to every other working day ... with the risk of defects increasing with every day of no inspection. because, at the end of the day, its not the blocklayer, carpenter, plumber etc etc etc that is responsible for the quality of their work, its the certifier.
martinn123 wrote: » I think you might put those comments in some context, regarding the size of the Project.I can see how on a block of Apartments, a daily Inspection would be justified, but a one off self-builder will be frightened by the Cost Implications of the above post. Surely it would be possible to have works scheduled in a manner that does not require daily visits, in a domestic build. i accept your points regarding responsibility, but please be mindful of the audience here, you are raising a lot of cost worries, possibly unnecessarily. ( see recent post in Prices/Costs)
Surely it would be possible to have works scheduled in a manner that does not require daily visits, in a domestic build.
i accept your points regarding responsibility, but please be mindful of the audience here, you are raising a lot of cost worries, possibly unnecessarily
sydthebeat wrote: » if any thing the opposite is true... larger builds will have homogeneous process and procedures which can be assessed easier than a one off build where you could have 4 or 5 trades on site at one time. House building is actually a lot more logistical than persons think, when compared to commercial type builds with alternative build methods. yet you expect a novice self builder to have the ability to organise these schedules to allow for more intermittent inspections? .
martinn123 wrote: » it is possible to co-ordinate the build, to allow inspection.
sydthebeat wrote: » i never said it wasnt, please dont try to create a straw man here.
sydthebeat wrote: yet you expect a novice self builder to have the ability to organise these schedules to allow for more intermittent inspections?
sydthebeat wrote: Im fully aware of how many trades can be on site, i produce work schedules, i know what overlaps can exist in a properly organised schedule. Self builds tend to stretch out longer than contractor builds simply because of this inability to schedule trades and materials to the maximum.
sydthebeat wrote: oh and im glad you agree that it is possible to have many trades on site at the one time.
martinn123 wrote: » Well the phrase you used was, Yes I Do. They can also stretch, because the home builder is waiting until a tradesman is available. Good guy's aren't always available to your schedule, I waited 4 weeks for the right blocklayer, and was glad to wait, but you know that. Great lets base the whole conversation on the last 5 days of my build.
sydthebeat wrote: » well lets just say im offering my opinion from being in the industry for 15 years, and not just having build two houses with the missus.
Any self-builders out there, care to comment on these last few posts??
sydthebeat wrote: » If the designer was simply asked to certify what they designed and specified then yes, it would be a lot more simplier. And if the responsibility was left with the builder to certify that they built in accordance to these plans and specifications and in accordance with the building regulations.
DOCARCH wrote: » ....problem solved! This is why there needs to be statutory registration (and regulation) of builders. Very simply builders need to be 'professionalised', have professional indemnity insurance, and be equally liable for their own work as the designer is for theirs... ...basically everybody should take full responsibility (and liability) for their own work.
sydthebeat wrote: » i agree but would a system like that allow for the "have a go DIY self builder"?? if so, how?
DOCARCH wrote: » I'd ask you, why should it? Maybe there needs to be a whole new profession/qualification, like a 'master builder' (something similar to what they have in Germany) who could set himself up as a building contractor...or act as a project manager/provide oversight for the self builder.
DOCARCH wrote: » But...the problem is, there is no definintion of competent (for builders)? A builder building away on his own for the last 30 odd years might have lots of experience, but, is he competent? I came across one 'highly rated' builder recently - lots and lots of past experience and projects under his belt (in excess of 25 years) - I found him tying a cavity wall with 215 solid blocks across the cavity (tying the inner and outer leaf) at intervals. I basically said...WTF!...despite having a set of construction drawings to work to, he said that's the way he had always built cavity walls! The mind boggles! That's a guy with loads of experience at building, but, no understanding of what he is doing.
