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Child Item

Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

godwin

Can they do this? I mean what civil rights does a person have if they get stopped at a check points by welfare and the garda enquiring who they are and where they are going?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/burton-garda-checkpoints-on-estates-to-weed-out-welfare-cheats-29665728.html

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buzzb123

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Why do people keep saying it is not going to work as if it is something brand new just starting up. It has been going for many years and has been working.

Yes social welfare inspectors have been catching fraudulent claims however I have never heard of people being checked at a check point in relation to welfare fraud.

Another point is the Gardai do not have access to PPS numbers ( which I find incredible in this day and age ). It would mean that a social welfare inspector would have to present at the checkpoint to catch anyone. Again more waste of resources. I would also imagine that industrial estates would not be the place to target as many of these workers will be PAYE and be working for companies that pay tax.

IMO much of the social welfare fraud is happening with single mothers claiming to be single when in fact they are not. Many people claiming the dole will be doing nixers NOT driving into industrial estates.

There are more efficient ways of dealing with welfare fraud. Cases need to be built in order to prove someone is committing the offence. A check point on a road is not what I would consider building up a case - it gives no proof - how does it prove anything? As for living in a different country, this could be easily solved. I have heard of some one living in Brazil and still getting benefits

People should have to sign on weekly and use a passport as ID along with social services card. This is not always the case in post offices collecting money either, as in not being asked for ID.

Tip-offs, social networks and good old fashion observation is probably the only way that a case can be built up. This IMO is the only way to catch these people, the same way as insurance claims are investigated.

Again, welfare fraud is a drop in the ocean as far as I am concerned but still needs to be tackled.

Ie- rent allowance completely slashed over 30 hours a week. No incentive for a low income family to work pay full rent and childcare out of a low income wage. Financially they are better off not working. This is not how it should be. If these poverty traps were tackled logically more tax would be paid by workers hence having a positive effect on the country in the long term.

I still believe most people WANT to work and there are traps preventing them from doing so. For others that simply don't want to work, they should be giving community jobs for a set number of hours a week or benefits should be cut

darkpagandeath

buzzb123 wrote: »

Yes social welfare inspectors have been catching fraudulent claims however I have never heard of people being checked at a check point in relation to welfare fraud.

Another point is the Gardai do not have access to PPS numbers ( which I find incredible in this day and age ). It would mean that a social welfare inspector would have to present at the checkpoint to catch anyone. Again more waste of resources. I would also imagine that industrial estates would not be the place to target as many of these workers will be PAYE and be working for companies that pay tax.

IMO much of the social welfare fraud is happening with single mothers claiming to be single when in fact they are not. Many people claiming the dole will be doing nixers NOT driving into industrial estates.

There are more efficient ways of dealing with welfare fraud. Cases need to be built in order to prove someone is committing the offence. A check point on a road is not what I would consider building up a case - it gives no proof - how does it prove anything? As for living in a different country, this could be easily solved. I have heard of some one living in Brazil and still getting benefits People should have to sign on weekly and use a passport as ID along with social services card. This is not always the case in post offices collecting money either, as in not being asked for ID.

Tip-offs, social networks and good old fashion observation is probably the only way that a case can be built up. This IMO is the only way to catch these people, the same way as insurance claims are investigated.

Again, welfare fraud is a drop in the ocean as far as I am concerned but still needs to be tackled.

Ie- rent allowance completely slashed over 30 hours a week. No incentive for a low income family to work pay full rent and childcare out of a low income wage. Financially they are better off not working. This is not how it should be. If these poverty traps were tackled logically more tax would be paid by workers hence having a positive effect on the country in the long term.

I still believe most people WANT to work and there are traps preventing them from doing so. For others that simply don't want to work, they should be giving community jobs for a set number of hours a week or benefits should be cut

thats why they brought out the social card with your pic on it

buzzb123

JustAThought wrote: »

Usual waste - why don't they run easy clear campaigns on who to ring/ write to to report " sole" parent & dole cheat fraud - people would be happy to tell on the cheats.

Everyone knows what's going on, rather than waste the gaurds time set up a phone line & then investigate them & bring them in every day for " interviews" if needs be - that will soon make them unavailable for work.

As usual , the waste in the Irish system is shocking. Couldn't organise a l1ss up in a brewery. Garda checkpoints ... Why don't they get the immigration at the airport to check & the DSW /whatever they've called it now to do some checking .

If you Make it Easy for people to report SW cheats by their car reg or addresses & by having on the spot ID checks in work for PPS numbers like they do in Holland & Germany you would take a big bite out of the problem.

As usual, even in a crisis, a politician can't even organise the most clear & effective solution.

The gaurds should be arresting criminals, clearing junkies & aggressive beggars from the streets & protecting " us" . Of course the elephant in the room is the impossible to comprehend car ownership by those whose culture is to refuse to work ; bets that won't be tackled in this - as usual.

I would also like a system where those who commit up each other & their families are rewarded, rather than those who cheat the system being given 100% rent & free houses. Why not reward commitment & family stability.

I would also like to see FAS and the visa allocation people actually correlate their records - why are we importing pastry chefs & waitresses & giving them visas to work when young Irish schoolleavers & stutdents can't find work : there shouldn't be 100+ PPS numbers issued per day from FAS on Parmell Street when there are 400,000 on the dole.

I agree with all your points with the exception of the last two.
The government need to encourage people out of this poverty trap. For example rent allowance is completely cut off once you work over 30 hours a week. If you are on a low income it would make more sense to retain some of the supplement but this is not the case- massive reason why people won't work full time ( IF there was an option for them to)

We also need to bear in mind that there are 400,000 people on the dole however there is a portion of these people who do work part time and claim 2 days benefit. Again, the issue with childcare comes into play here as an incentive to stay part time as opposing to work full time. Dole is claimed for the two days you are not in work and two days less in childcare. Again it pays for people to work less

buzzb123

darkpagandeath wrote: »

thats why they brought out the social card with your pic on it

I didn't realise that. Good move:) Does these address the issue of people flying in and out of the country once a month though?

I heard of a case where a woman was caught doing this, I wonder how it was found out. I would imagine through observation?

ivan itchyarse

A.Partridge wrote: »

Ha ha ha !

It's hilarious that Gardai will be checking out people who are doing a bit of black market work.

I know lots of gardai with two jobs or more ! :pac:

yes there scheming robbing bastards

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

buzzb123

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I am amazed that more people aren't caught if that is the case. Granted there are millions of people flying in and out of the country however with technology as advanced as it is surely there is a way to filter people on the live register who are taking trips in and out of Ireland monthly :rolleyes:

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

Will the checkpoints target farmers in rural areas, in the Taoiseachs constituency say? or will they just target urban and suburban areas?

bumper234

JustAThought wrote: »

Usual waste - why don't they run easy clear campaigns on who to ring/ write to to report " sole" parent & dole cheat fraud - people would be happy to tell on the cheats.

They do

Telephone: 1890 927 999

Online report: https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/secure/ReportFraud.aspx

JustAThought wrote: »

Everyone knows what's going on, rather than waste the gaurds time set up a phone line & then investigate them & bring them in every day for " interviews" if needs be - that will soon make them unavailable for work.

No that would be harrassment.

JustAThought wrote: »

As usual , the waste in the Irish system is shocking. Couldn't organise a l1ss up in a brewery. Garda checkpoints ... Why don't they get the immigration at the airport to check & the DSW /whatever they've called it now to do some checking .

They do.

JustAThought wrote: »

If you Make it Easy for people to report SW cheats by their car reg or addresses & by having on the spot ID checks in work for PPS numbers like they do in Holland & Germany you would take a big bite out of the problem.

So in stead of inconveniencing a couple of people at a checkpoint for a couple of minutes they should storm a factory or whatever and close it for half a day? You realise they are trying to get people who are working off the books right?

JustAThought wrote: »

As usual, even in a crisis, a politician can't even organise the most clear & effective solution.

The gaurds should be arresting criminals, clearing junkies & aggressive beggars from the streets & protecting " us" . Of course the elephant in the room is the impossible to comprehend car ownership by those whose culture is to refuse to work ; bets that won't be tackled in this - as usual.

I would also like a system where those who commit up each other & their families are rewarded, rather than those who cheat the system being given 100% rent & free houses. Why not reward commitment & family stability.

You kind of went off on one there

JustAThought wrote: »

I would also like to see FAS and the visa allocation people actually correlate their records - why are we importing pastry chefs & waitresses & giving them visas to work when young Irish schoolleavers & stutdents can't find work : there shouldn't be 100+ PPS numbers issued per day from FAS on Parmell Street when there are 400,000 on the dole.

Somewhere in Australia there is a guy named Bruce saying the same thing about Irish people going over there to work.

bumper234

24 checkpoints in the first 6 months of this year and 37 fraud cases identified saving a quarter million euro's with a further 43 cases being investigated. 24 checkpoints in 6 months doesn't really sound like Nazi Germany circa 1930 to me :rolleyes:

bumper234

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This is just a blatant outright lie, please stop making things up to sensationalize your argument.

Technoprisoner

bumper234 wrote: »

24 checkpoints in the first 6 months of this year and 37 fraud cases identified saving a quarter million euro's with a further 43 cases being investigated. 24 checkpoints in 6 months doesn't really sound like Nazi Germany circa 1930 to me :rolleyes:

That is before it was announced that these will become the norm

uck51js9zml2yt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Will the checkpoints target farmers in rural areas, in the Taoiseachs constituency say? or will they just target urban and suburban areas?

Yes . They will check to see if enda is working. Rumours have it that he's not

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Technoprisoner wrote: »

That is before it was announced that these will become the norm

It has not been announced that these will be the "norm".

chuckster

A.Partridge wrote: »

Ha ha ha !

It's hilarious that Gardai will be checking out people who are doing a bit of black market work.

I know lots of gardai with two jobs or more ! :pac:

Big difference between someone doing a second job to boost their meagre income and welfare cheats sponging off the government by claiming they cant work while they are well capable and are supplementing their welfare by earning another income.

tallus

I'd much prefer they chased down the scum who burgled my house twice. Because all they did in the past was send me the address of a counselling service.

bonzos

They would be better off setting up a few checkpoints outside the taxpayer funded traveller halting sites and asked where the money is coming from to buy the new BMW's and Merc's.....

Maudi

Natasha Gifted Dewdrop wrote: »

You and I have the right to free movement and passage

"Any person (note: including a Garda) who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, wilfully prevents or interrupts the free passage of any person or vehicle in any public place is committing an offence under Section 9 of the CRIMINAL JUSTICE (PUBLIC ORDER) ACT, 1994”.

"Other people in the vehicle are not obliged by any provision of the Road Traffic Acts to give any information at all about themselves"

Check this out and know your rights:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82108?comment_order=asc&userlanguage=ga

Just because others break the law doesn't mean they have the right to harass everyone

Id be wary of anybody in the middle of the road asking me to stop my car.what with all these stories of bogus callers car hijackings etc..always roll your window down a crack and ack for picture i.d.

Gatling

Maudi wrote: »

Id be wary of anybody in the middle of the road asking me to stop my car.what with all these stories of bogus callers car hijackings etc..always roll your window down a crack and ack for picture i.d.

It will be a Garda check point like a car tax check point

Eight Ball

Refuse to answer any questions without your lawyer present. Then ask them if you are under arrest, if the answer is no then tell them you are in a rush and you will have to go. End of.

Don't let FG/Labour turn us into a police state.

desertcircus

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Saying this won't work is falling into the trap set by journalists trying to pretend they are reporting something new. It is something very old and it has been working.

http://www.joanburton.ie/social-protection-2/e669-million-saved-through-control-measures-in-2012

The Social Welfare site is down at the moment, otherwise I could post a link showing the powers of Social Welfare Inspectors on duty at Multi Agency Vehicle Checkpoints. If it was as simple as someone saying Good day Garda may I be on my way then there would have been no point in having these checkpoints for the last 20 years. Is welfare fraud a crime?

The figures in that article are superhumanly dishonest. According to the article, there were 18,306 separate cases, of which 16% went to further investigation. First off, this means that less than 1% of welfare recipients warrant investigation. But the real joy comes in the deliberate and shamelessly vicious conflation of these investigations with the 669m figure. The article mentions nothing but these investigations and throws in that figure, as if one was related to the other. In reality, if this was the case, everyone facing investigation would have to currently be receiving just under a quarter of a million euro a year. What's the real figure? We don't know, because we're not given any relevant numbers, but we can make an educated guess that it's really small - if it was anywhere near decent-sized, it'd be included with this. This is hateful reporting, designed to whip up anger against social welfare recipients and win public approval for kicking them around rather than doing anything concrete and substantive about any of Ireland's real problems.

ShagNastii

bonzos wrote: »

They would be better off setting up a few checkpoints outside the taxpayer funded traveller halting sites and asked where the money is coming from to buy the new BMW's and Merc's.....

You are saying it tongue in cheek but I don't see why the hell not this could/should happen.

barney 20v

ShagNastii wrote: »

You are saying it tongue in cheek but I don't see why the hell not this could/should happen.

That will never happen

josip

bizmark wrote: »

/o\ good god

I to want to be tracked by the all knowing benevolent government every day every time i travel and do anything

I can understand your concerns, but a lot of people give much more information to Google/Apple on a daily basis, most of us are unaware of how much. And we have zero input to the boards of Google/Apple.

kerry4sam

godwin wrote: »

Can they do this? I mean what civil rights does a person have if they get stopped at a check points by welfare and the garda enquiring who they are and where they are going?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/burton-garda-checkpoints-on-estates-to-weed-out-welfare-cheats-29665728.html

Sur I remember when the last recruits were in Templemore, according to posts here on boards in the ES forum; they could not/were not allowed to pass a stage without taking people to court for breaking the ROTR (even for offences that senior personnel would let let slide, to keep in with the locals in the hope of getting some inside local info or other); the new recruits had to take action!

They will have new recruits on the streets by mid next-year around a time when new legislation is promised to be out; perfect timing. Have the new rookies use their powers (new training programme); with new legislation and use the senior personnel then to try soften everything over with the locals. The rookies have to take people to court to build up experience, so expect more court listings in 2014 and onward.

Nothing would surprise me next year with An Garda Síochána and with new legislation already in the time-line as to whether this is also something they might try.

People often wonder why the local members are nice and chatty with them; not realising if they were not, then they would not receive all necessary local info. Just be ready for the new rookies next year trying the same with getting info from everyone and then using their new powers also as a directive from senior personnel to start gaining experience. They will have to start somewhere.

Doctor Strange

Eight Ball wrote: »

Refuse to answer any questions without your lawyer present. Then ask them if you are under arrest, if the answer is no then tell them you are in a rush and you will have to go. End of.

Don't let FG/Labour turn us into a police state.

Then you should ask if they've had their oats :rolleyes:

valknut

I wonder will they set up check points at halting sites or will the under 25 how ya bosses have there welfare cut.

As always decent people targeted first and foremost.

Valetta

valknut wrote: »

I wonder will they set up check points at halting sites or will the under 25 how ya bosses have there welfare cut.

As always decent people targeted first and foremost.

Are you saying all people who live on halting sites aren't decent people?

Or are you saying all people who don't live on halting sites are decent people?

Caliden

Proper order. Should use the opportunity to check nct/tax/insurance as I have yet to meet a checkpoint on my commute to work and I'd say there are people who have gone years on their commute and never seen a checkpoint.