Public Service Broadcasting Charge update

The Cush wrote: »

The Greek TV Licence is suspended for the moment following the shutting down of ERT.

The annual fee was €51.60 and collected via the electricity bill from every electricity account whether they had a TV or not.

News broadcasts have restarted from the new public service broadcaster EDT recently - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23777246

And again this is sheer lunacy. To prop up a propaganda machine of the Government.

nacho66

STB wrote: »

There will always be people who don't want to pay for anything. The amount of people that come on to these boards claiming I don't have a TV etc is a constant source of amusement to me.

What would be a difference between TV license, and eg. public transport license which you would need to pay even tho you drive a car, and pay enough taxes and fees to be able to use it? Cause for me the concept sounds similar

icdg

nacho66 wrote: »

What would be a difference between TV license, and eg. public transport license which you would need to pay even tho you drive a car, and pay enough taxes and fees to be able to use it? Cause for me the concept sounds similar

You are required to pay the licence fee to own a television. You are required to pay motor tax to own a car. That's the real equation there.

nacho66

icdg wrote: »

You are required to pay the licence fee to own a television. You are required to pay motor tax to own a car. That's the real equation there.

I pay motor tax because I use public roads, read public signs, wait on public lights. Maintaining those requires finances, percentage of which I'm ready to cover because I effectively use it. I also release smoke into the atmosphere. I think it's clear and understandable. No arguing here. However, as you well know, if you have a car in the garage and don't drive, you don't pay motor tax (Garda can sign a document if you prove you haven't driven it for last whatever months)

By having a TV alone I don't use public service. I use electricity, which I pay bill for, and I use TV package from some provider like UPC or Sky or whatever, also paid. Throw some playstation games on top of that. As long as I don't watch RTE and don't listen to public radio, I'm not using the service, so what the hell am I paying for?

If it's just for having a TV as a physical object, why am I not paying Computer License on top of my broadband bills? After all, I may visit some public service website, right?

So where's the equation?

PS: is there any tax/license for using bicycles on public roads/pavements?

nacho66 wrote: »

I pay motor tax because I use public roads, read public signs, wait on public lights. Maintaining those requires finances, percentage of which I'm ready to cover because I effectively use it. I also release smoke into the atmosphere. I think it's clear and understandable. No arguing here. However, as you well know, if you have a car in the garage and don't drive, you don't pay motor tax (Garda can sign a document if you prove you haven't driven it for last whatever months)

By having a TV alone I don't use public service. I use electricity, which I pay bill for, and I use TV package from some provider like UPC or Sky or whatever, also paid. Throw some playstation games on top of that. As long as I don't watch RTE and don't listen to public radio, I'm not using the service, so what the hell am I paying for?

If it's just for having a TV as a physical object, why am I not paying Computer License on top of my broadband bills? After all, I may visit some public service website, right?

So where's the equation?

PS: is there any tax/license for using bicycles on public roads/pavements?

No there isn't. Very well put. The solution is to make RTE subscription. End of problem. While dragging RTE into the real world and out of their cocoon in D4.
Then if people want to buy tunerless monitors to which they stream that also increases their choice.

Peter Rhea

nacho66 wrote: »

PS: is there any tax/license for using bicycles on public roads/pavements?

No, just like there isn't a 'walking tax' or a 'leaving-the-house & going-outside tax'.

You're wasting your time looking for what you might see as logic in any of this. Taxes are applied where they are likely to actually raise a bit of revenue. Most people, even if they disagree with a particular tax, if they see no means of evasion they will eventually just pay up.

Apogee

Like most DCENR and Comreg consultations, this seems to be another paper pushing exercise, where they have predecided what the outcome will be regardless of the submissions. A case in point is that they have ruled out collection via electricity bill. The consultation states:

DCENR Consulation Doc wrote:

While various collection mechanisms have been considered, the current proposition is that a collection agent independent of the public service broadcasters should be appointed for the administration and collection of the charge. In any event, stringent collection targets will be set for the collection agent backed up by a more effective enforcement regime.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/554905C1-9BE8-4CC5-A984-ADCFED572908/0/ConsultationonPublicServiceBroadcastingCharge.pdf

From the VFM document:

VFM Doc wrote:

Collection methods researched varied but the possibility of requiring electricity suppliers to collect the fee as part of their regular billing in order to minimise collection costs and reduce evasion was considered. However, further consideration led the Department to conclude that there was a wider role than just collection required, including monitoring and enforcement, and as such an independent dedicated agent would be more appropriate.

VFM wrote:

In line with its terms of reference, the Group noted the different collection methods researched by the Department, and especially that, in developing its original proposal, the Department considered the possibility of requiring electricity suppliers to collect the fee as part of their regular billing in order to minimise collection costs and reduce evasion. However, the Group acknowledged the Department’s view that there was a wider role than just collection required especially in terms of monitoring and enforcement, and as such had proposed that an independent dedicated agent would be appropriate. The Group endorsed this aspect of the original proposal and felt that consideration should be given to conducting a tender process to appoint the agent. This should promote competition and, therefore, efficiency and effectiveness.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/C5FB5FDA-712B-4296-B1FC-D572726420A0/0/VFMReport.pdf

One can understand DCENRs wish to have an independent collection agency, because like all Irish government departments, they want to hive off all responsibility onto someone else, so in the case of something going wrong, or other criticism, they can shrug their shoulders and claim "it's nothing to do with us" (e.g. DCENR/Comreg, Health/HSE and various other quangos).

But why not then use an independent collection agency which is charged with collection, but still use the electricity bill method???

They then go on about the unreliability of the ESBN database and suggest the TV licence database would be "at least as useful" - with no evidence to support this - and while even acknowledging that that the ESBN database is larger than the TV Licence database (2.2M vs 1.9M).

The line being fed to media is that this expert group ruled out collection via electricity bill

Independent.ie wrote:

It will replace – and will not exceed in cost – the €160 television licence, which is currently being collected by An Post but is being evaded by more than 270,000 people. And it will apply to all households even if they do not own a television.

An expert report has recommended Revenue as an option for collecting the tax from 1.7 million households after dismissing proposals that it should be collected by electricity companies like the ESB or by RTE itself.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rabbitte-lines-up-taxman-to-collect-new-broadcast-charge-29532223.html

Can anyone find a concrete reason from DCENR why this method of collection has been ruled out or am I missing something?

Capt'n Midnight

Apogee wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rabbitte-lines-up-taxman-to-collect-new-broadcast-charge-29532223.html

An expert report has recommended Revenue as an option for collecting the tax from 1.7 million households after dismissing proposals that it should be collected by electricity companies like the ESB or by RTE itself.

Can anyone find a concrete reason from DCENR why this method of collection has been ruled out or am I missing something?

It's like bin charges and the M50 toll and water charges. It's yet another indirect tax

but by getting a third party to collect the money they can pretend it's not a tax

They should cut out the middle man and just call it a tax

thing is that the third party will take a large slice of the money for themselves so it ends up costing the tax payer more

Yeah , as far as I'm concerned if something used to be free from the government/council and now I've to pay for it it's a indirect tax.

Technically speaking they could roll it into the household charge or ESB standing charge - There is no need for yet another collection agency and all the wasteful burecuracy that goes with it :mad:

And most importantly it should be reduced from €160 because ya don't have to pay An Post a finders fee. TBH If it was me I'd tell AnPost "you know the way you get 10% of the license fee, well from now it's only getting paid from the 10% of license fees you haven't collected in the past"

Are they going to take it off An Post and give Comreg the responsibility?
Once upon a time the national P.O. regulated radio in each country. Today it's supposed Independent Regulators such as Ofcom and Comreg that are destroying broadcasting regulating & protecting spectrum raising revenue selling spectrum to Mobile Operators and managing spectrum licences.

It is a tax and always was a tax. Initially a tax on having a Radio. Taxing TVs was discussed in early 1950s but they didn't bring in TV licence till RTE launched TV (actually about 3 months early, August 1961, I presume 31st Dec 1961 was a delayed start date).

Hotblack Desiato

It's madness not to include it with ESB Networks standing charges, which all electricity suppliers collect.

This is one of the very few things the Greek government does right! They're crap at collecting income taxes, but anyone who has electricity is paying the public broadcasting charge.

Definitely the cheapest way to collect it, and the hardest to evade.

The report has a very strong whiff of self-serving bull**** off it, to be honest.

It's very suspicious.

How can any method other than adding it to the electricity standing charge be more efficient? What competition can there be with any other method? You cannot beat free.

This smells of some form of corruption.

I would propose that €10 a month be added to the ESB Network accounts. If 27% do not pay the current charge and An Post get 10% off the top for collection, then €120/.73/.9 gives €183. Even if An Post only get 5%, it still comes out at €173. To get another agency created and set up will take at least 12 months, and then it will require adjusting and paying for, which will probably cost more than the 10% going to An Post. I]I also do not beleive the 27% figure[/I.

What a crock!

They did the same kind of nonsense with the new credit card style driving licence. The Passport Office already has a system for validating identity that is acceptable to the highest level internationally, but no, they sent it outside to a private company. If the PO had the job, the new licences could be the basis for National Identity Cards as used in many EU countries, and would replace the bulky and expensive passport for most of the population.

Were these the same crowd that crashed the economy and allowed the banks to ruin us or are they the ones that refused to pay a red cent to the bond-holders?

icdg

They are possibly very keen to keep the work with the Post Office with both the use of personal and business email dropping significantly particularly with online billing coming in. Its entirely possible that banks, direct marketers, and the legal profession will be the only people using letter post in a few years time, nearly all my personal mail in now is from the bank or else is direct marketing.

Utilities are very keen to move to online billing. It is not well known but currently the Communications Workers Union is running a campaign among unions to try to get union members to opt-out of online billing, in order to keep the Post Office in business. Never mind the positive impact to the environment.

The modus operandi of these reports, by the way, is often that the decision is taken before the report is written. The purpose of the report is to justify the decision, rather than inform it.

icdg wrote: »

It is not well known but currently the Communications Workers Union is running a campaign among unions to try to get union members to opt-out of online billing, in order to keep the Post Office in business. Never mind the positive impact to the environment.

:eek:

The theory is likely that P.O., ESB etc would have to submit a tender. Often when someone "new" is secretly picked they insist that whatever the service is has to be publicly tendered. Whoever it is the Civil Service wants usually "wins".

SPDUB

icdg wrote: »

It is not well known but currently the Communications Workers Union is running a campaign among unions to try to get union members to opt-out of online billing, in order to keep the Post Office in business. Never mind the positive impact to the environment..

Correction

The CWU is running a campaign among unions to try to get union members to opt-out of forced online billing .

Comreg has changed the rules and now allows Companies to change everyone to online billing unless you opt for a paper bill including all the customers who have shown no interest in online billing up to this point .

The Cush

Deadline for submissions on the consultation is next Tuesday.

According to the Sunday Business Post 300 submissions have been made to date.

The Cush

Submissions closed last Tuesday.

In the Sunday Times there was a small piece on TV3's submission, Business section page 2 - TV3 dig at " cut-price" RTÉ ads.

Tv3 were basically saying that RTÉ are using the licence fee to part-fund its commercial activities and so can charge less for ad slots and could undercut the market further if given more funds, RTÉ would get an extra €20m-€40m under the new broacasting charge and so on.

Also the €7m per year levy collected from broadcasters to fund the BAI should be abolished.

TV3 also want the broadcasting charge to part-fund the transmission costs of DTT.

The Cush wrote: »

Submissions closed last Tuesday.

In the Sunday Times there was a small piece on TV3's submission, Business section page 2 - TV3 dig at " cut-price" RTÉ ads.

Tv3 were basically saying that RTÉ are using the licence fee to part-fund its commercial activities and so can charge less for ad slots and could undercut the market further if given more funds, RTÉ would get an extra €20m-€40m under the new broacasting charge and so on.

Also the €7m per year levy collected from broadcasters to fund the BAI should be abolished.

TV3 also want the broadcasting charge to part-fund the transmission costs of DTT.

Did they mention their 'dig-out' to the tune of an €81m parking of their debts at the tax payers expense (basically written off)? Or the fact their loans are on offer at cut price, again the taxpayer picking up the difference?

Thought not!

That €81m would more than pay the cost of the DTT installation that RTE paid for, but TV3 refused to pay anything towards.

TV3 want a free ride and no RTE.

watty wrote: »

TV3 want a free ride and no RTE.

Lots of people want no RTE Watty. Or the option to subscribe or not.

7upfree wrote: »

Lots of people want no RTE Watty. Or the option to subscribe or not.

You do not subscribe to RTE - it's FREE. The licence applies to the apparatus to receive it. You do not have to watch.

Sam Russell wrote: »

You do not subscribe to RTE - it's FREE. The licence applies to the apparatus to receive it. You do not have to watch.

What I am saying is that it should be an OPTION. Then those that want the bloody thing can pay for it. Instead of the rest of us being lumped with it.

The option is that you can watch it or not as the fancy takes you.

Would you rather pay for TV3?

Sam Russell wrote: »

The option is that you can watch it or not as the fancy takes you.

Would you rather pay for TV3?

I'd rather not pay for any of them. Remove the idiotic charge/licence. Make RTE sub or ad - one or the other.

Capt'n Midnight

7upfree wrote: »

What I am saying is that it should be an OPTION. Then those that want the bloody thing can pay for it. Instead of the rest of us being lumped with it.

Perhaps you should learn about stealth taxes ?

There are LOTS of stealth taxes I don't want to pay.
Water was free, bin collection was free.
The lotto means the govt has to pay out less for health & social projects
We paid for the M50 and we pay to use it. And considering that all taxpayers had to stump up for the M50 regardless of whether they can drive or no a TV license is a little fairer.

And for all of these a middleman gets a cut, just like AnPost gets a slice of the TV license.

Also a reminder that licensing receivers here goes back to 1904 , first for Radio and then for TV

Like I said earlier having the ESB collect €100 should be enough.

TBH a greater problem is eircoms extortionate line rental

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Perhaps you should learn about stealth taxes ?

There are LOTS of stealth taxes I don't want to pay.
Water was free, bin collection was free.
The lotto means the govt has to pay out less for health & social projects
We paid for the M50 and we pay to use it. And considering that all taxpayers had to stump up for the M50 regardless of whether they can drive or no a TV license is a little fairer.

And for all of these a middleman gets a cut, just like AnPost gets a slice of the TV license.

Also a reminder that licensing receivers here goes back to 1904 , first for Radio and then for TV

Like I said earlier having the ESB collect €100 should be enough.

TBH a greater problem is eircoms extortionate line rental

This is more than a tax, It is a blatant attempt to continue the distortion of the broadcast market. I couldn't care less if RTE ceased to exist. If people want it then make it subscription only. That will eliminate the Montrose gravy train.

7upfree wrote: »

This is more than a tax, It is a blatant attempt to continue the distortion of the broadcast market. I couldn't care less if RTE ceased to exist. If people want it then make it subscription only. That will eliminate the Montrose gravy train.

If you follow that logic, all TV should be subscription only. It would result in the loss of much of the support for the arts, and would reduce the standard of all Irish produced programmes to the depths already plumbed by TV3, and the wholesale importation of some of the worst derivative, cheap, American sourced lowest grade TV programmes. An example of this is 'Murder she wrote' which is an appalling series of formulaic, written by computer, acted by zombies, drivel ever to be on TV. Is that what you want?