Tony EH wrote: » Claim, allegation, rumour and hearsay is not evidence. Only factual evidence, backed by proof, is of any use. It's a perfectly valid comparison, and amply demonstrates the HUGE holes in your argument. It doesn't matter if you don't want to accept it. The fact still remains that the Aum Shinrikyo were able to carry out a chemical attack, with minimal resources and a a few men. Their first attack was delivered from the back of a truck. It simply doesn't take a massive attack to cause devastation using chemical weapons. This is part of the reason why they are considered such a contentious issue. No, it wouldn't need "many" tons and such an attack could be delivered in a various number of ways. Assad's forces are winning the war on the ground, according to the majority of sources. Whatever :rolleyes:
Cork boy 55 wrote: » Just because you say things like "Nobody" does make them true There's overwhelming evidence from analysis,witness and sources that it was a rocket attack see the video posted in last post for example, including extensive UXO material.
Cork boy 55 wrote: » The Tokyo Subway attack was carried out by a moderate sized well-financed cult with years of planning in a Country filled with heavy chemical industry using LIQUID sarin and only killed 13 and severely injured 50 people the vast majority of casualties where minor it's possible in crowded underground enclosed areas to cause large number of minor causalities you can do this simply by releasing smoke FFS. There is NO comparison and anyone that try's is merely pedaling misinformation like your cry of 5000+ casualties by 5 men
Cork boy 55 wrote: » It would require many tons of Sarin to kill and sicken that many people in the Ghouta
Cork boy 55 wrote: » Why are applying logic, control, rational and competence to Loyalist leadership these people are insane, savages and amoral, They losing the war on most fronts july/August where the most successful months of insurgency so far with the introduction...
Cork boy 55 wrote: » Your assertion that Al-qauda carried out the attack shows a serious lack of understanding of Syrian conflict They DO NOT want Intervention. Anyone who things they carried this out does not have a clue
dublinbhoy88 wrote: » If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen as the saying goes
Scofflaw wrote: » dublinbhoy, you're really not contributing anything worth reading to the debate here. Up your game, or don't post - and by "up your game" I mean deal with people's arguments and evidence, refute them where you can, and where you can't, don't just post one-liners saying it's all propaganda, that people are shills or the like. Other people can make up their own minds on the evidence presented, and your interjections don't make any difference to that. Before you post an outraged reply to this, accusing me of being a supporter of whatever it may be, please read the forum charter, or you'll have even more to complain about. moderately, Scofflaw
dublinbhoy88 wrote: » What part of the states are you from?
Tony EH wrote: » Without actual proof, this means nothing. There are people on the opposite side from Assad who are well capable of such actions. This cannot be discounted. There are some EXTREMELY unsavory groups operating in Syria. Nobody has offered anything to suggest that the attack was carried out in that manner and Sarin (if indeed that was used) can be delivered in very simple ways. It doesn't need a rocket. You wouldn't need a large quantity of product to do damage. 5 guys in Tokyo caused 5000+ casualties in the 90's. The insurgents are not some rag tag "Red Dawn" type group, they are populated by many different types of people, some of which are from Syria's own military forces, coupled with the fact that there are many jihadist groups within the ranks of the rebels, who have been fighting in some way for over 10 years. "Training" doesn't come into it. AGAIN, 5 guys from some loony religious group carried out a devastating, highly orchestrated, sarin attack in the Tokyo underground. If they can do it, it certainly isn't byond the capabilities of Al Qaeda to do it. That's for sure. It may well turn out that it was Assad's forces, or elements within. It's all up in the air, and without solid actual proof, it remains up in the air. What matters is proof, that shows without a doubt that the attack came from a certain quarter. Without such, it's just speculation. But, again...the salient question remains, WHY would Assad carry out this attack, when the consequences are so dangerous to his position? It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. His forces have the upper hand. He really has NOTHING to gain employing an attack of this nature... ...and everything to lose.
Cork boy 55 wrote: » I cannot believe there is still people doubting that the Loyalists carried out the attack its not an Agatha murder mystery
Cork boy 55 wrote: » To suggest that the insurgents carried out the attack is utterly upsurd Are we to believe that -in the BESIEGED relativity small enclave of the Ghouta -that There exists A COVERT insurgent rocket regiment unit which process tons of Sarin gas chemical weapons, chemical weapons rockets warheads, chemical weapon delivery system
Cork boy 55 wrote: » -A rather large quantity of all
Cork boy 55 wrote: » -and the training, discipline and co-ordination to use them
Cork boy 55 wrote: » -which launched a mass co-coordinated accurate simultaneous strike at dozens of targets spread across the city on one of the few days the wind was blowing from the east
Cork boy 55 wrote: » "Assessing Chemical Weapons Use in Syria" 17 minutes video detailing the munitions found at sites of the chemical massacre in Ghouta 21 August by RUSI(Royal United Services Institute)http://www.rusi.org/analysis/videos/ref:V522D9DF12E360#.Ui27t9KsiSp
bumper234 wrote: » Did you really need to quote all of that just for a 5 word answer?
dublinbhoy88 wrote: » Any proof besides your propaganda?
Cork boy 55 wrote: » I cannot believe there is still people doubting that the Loyalists carried out the attack its not an Agatha murder mystery Its a binary choice 1=loyalist element 0=insurgents element The probability is 1 that it is loyalist element The probability is 0 that it is insurgents element To suggest that the insurgents carried out the attack is utterly upsurd Are we to believe that -in the BESIEGED relativity small enclave of the Ghouta -that There exists A COVERT insurgent rocket regiment unit which process tons of Sarin gas chemical weapons, chemical weapons rockets warheads, chemical weapon delivery system -A rather large quantity of all -and the training, discipline and co-ordination to use them -which launched a mass co-coordinated accurate simultaneous strike at dozens of targets spread across the city on one of the few days the wind was blowing from the east -slaughtering their own population support base, comrades and endangering the ghouta enclave arguable the most decisive and key terrain in whole of Syria -and kept this conspiracy a secret . -Without any evidence that any of these thing exist(the units the weapons the systems the plot the means) We know The loyalist process all these things within range of the Ghouta. Why did they Block the UN inspectors Why did they set fires to purify the Air Why did they shell the neighborhood extensively afterwards Why have they now launched an all-out assault against the Ghouta the first part of which was the chemical massacre to break the population which they threw everything at in the conventional arsenal and all their best units and failed previously The Ghouta is critical terrain however controls it wins the war in the west The loyalist have already lost in the north and east there only hope is a New state of west Syria and if they want The South-west of the country and not the just the cost they have to crush the Ghouta its the Most important and decisive patch of terrain in the state. The chemical massacre is merely a extension of the campaign of democide waged against unloyal populations by the loyalists .
Sierra Oscar wrote: » Very interesting development today, the US Secretary of State has stated that no military intervention will occur if Syria hands over its chemical weapons. That won't happen, but it shows that the US is trying to back out of undertaking military action now.
realweirdo wrote: » Because he is stupid...that's if he actually ordered it which is a mute point in any regard. The latest intel (German) is that commanders on the ground were pushing for its use for months beforehand which he refused. My own view is that he either gave the go ahead or more likely a local commander under pressure from above to push back rebels ordered its use. It was a dumb dumb move, but then again Assad is a dumb president. He has brought his country to disaster through bad decision after bad decision.
realweirdo wrote: » It was either Assad who carried it out or the rebels. So in your opinion who was it? My own belief is it was Assad. Your belief seems to be that you don't know, you haven't been able to process the information quickly enough.
realweirdo wrote: » You seem to assume also that anyone who believes it was Assad forces who carried it out are automatically stupid which is frankly bullsh*t.
realweirdo wrote: » I will repeat only Assad had the means, motive, lack of morality and everything else you want to mention in regard to this.
realweirdo wrote: » In other words I am in absolutely no doubt as is most of the world that the 21st August Chemical attack was CARRIED OUT BY ASSAD.
realweirdo wrote: » As for evidence there is litterly tons of it...You are unwilling to listen to any evidence that points to Assad, while at the same time not coming up with even one piece of hard firm evidence that points to the FSA.
Love nor Money wrote: » That's a very important question Tony: why would Assad or anyone associated with his regime use chemicals when that has been clearly and emphatically made the red line by US since last year if not earlier? Are there any theories knocking about? Is it Putin testing the US? Because without an identifiable motive, it is a decision that is so unbelievably counterproductive to Assad that a neutral observer would be entitled to call for a high degree of proof accepting that it was Assad.
Tony EH wrote: » You ask this question, but you fail to ask the most salient question and that is what Assad would have to gain in launch a chemical attack, when the UN inspectors are less than 20 minutes away and knowing that it was a "red line", which would bring in the US. This is a situation that Assad wants to avoid at any cost, as it could lead to an esscalation that would see the end of him and his rule in Syria. Coupled with the fact that Assad's forces are winning the situation on the ground, this means that he has NOTHING to gain out of such an attack. Of course it's entirely irrelevant what's said on a message board and this is only a thread for debate and discussion on the subject, but you're entirely wrong (again) in your assertion that everybody in power is in agreement about this. They aren't, and they are especially are not in agreement with how to proceed. America wants to bomb, but they have their own less than altruistic agenda and other nations are in two minds on what should really be done. precisely because there has been no evidence put forward to back up the accusation. This is the crux of the matter. Mere allegation is simply not enough, especially in the post Iraq/WMD lies fiasco. It may turn out that Assad's forces did carry out the attack, or elements within, without authorisation, or rogue elements even...or even elements within the rebel forces. It simply IS NOT KNOWN. There is NO EVIDENCE, this is the point people are making. That's the issue here. If real factual evidence is available, then it should be fronted up. Not allegation, not claims, not hearsay or gossip. REAL EVIDENCE. So far there has been none, whatsoever. It's very easy, too easy, to put all of this at the door of Assad. But the fact is that there are many sides involved. There are NO good guys here. And no nation is going to simply give up power to rebelious groups, no matter what shade of rebellion they claim to represent. The FSA may have the banner of the "good guy" to some people, but they quickly threw their lot in with many extremist groups, when the latter made their services available and that suggests something to be suspicious about. They never even offered a condemnation of Al Qaeda actions. Either way, the situation on the ground has changed out of all proportion to what may or may not have existed two years ago and many people are quite rightly dubious over whether the west should support these "rebels" or not. As for "talking to the opposition", it was the rebels who refused to talk to Assad, not the other way around.
realweirdo wrote: » I'm going to assume we will have to disagree on this one and won't find any common ground.
realweirdo wrote: » You view the Damascus chemical attack as a false flag operation/conspiracy carried out by the United States or allied forces with help from the FSA on the ground...I'd like to see your proof to back this one up by the way.
realweirdo wrote: » I view it on the otherhand as an operation carried out by Assad forces, as the preponderance of evidence points that way.
realweirdo wrote: » Assad could have settled this once and for all if he allowed the UN inspectors immediate and total access to the site of the attack. But he didn't did he? Because he had something to hide didn't he...his forces saturated the area for several days and nights after with shells and bombs and then allowed the UN go in. Is that the actions of a man with nothing to hide?
realweirdo wrote: » It's pretty irrelevant what we think on here by the way, most decision makers have made their mind up on the matter and have come to the conclusion Assad was guilty. These are facts, you can bend these facts, bury your head in the sand and pretend the EU, Arab League and various other countries haven't come to the same conclusion, that Assad done it. I'm just pointing out those facts...I'm not desperate for Assad to have done it.
realweirdo wrote: » If I thought the FSA carried out the attack, I'd be the first to condemn them. But the preponderance of evidence, circumstantial or otherwise points to it being Assad and also points to him attempting a coverup which unfortunately didn't work.
realweirdo wrote: » As for the wider conflict, those who have buried their head in the sand for the last two years, now suddenly wake up when they see AQ at the gates of Damascus. Something which could have been avoided if Assad and the regular FSA came to an agreement to share power or have some sort of orderly transition two years ago. The conflict has now completely spiralled out of control and is getting worse with each passing day, fanned by Iran, Russia and Hezbolah, Assad and radical Islamists too. There seems to be no peaceful end in sight to this conflict, not in the short term unfortunately. The best that can be hoped for is Assad forces are degraded enough so he decides enough is enough and he will start talking to the opposition.
Tony EH wrote: » Actually, I honestly don't think he/she is. I think they are just operating with a naive perspective. More than likely Realweirdo hadn't heard about Assad, or his family, before this all kicked off, so it's very easy to slip into the "he's the new Hitler" mode of thinking. It's very easy to point a finger and go there's the bad guy and no doubt there's a litany of various things that Assad can be accused of. But this misses the big picture. And really that's all that Realweirdo is lacking...the big picture.
dublinbhoy88 wrote: » he is obviously on the wind up
clairefontaine wrote: » Chemical weapons don't appear to be effective. Opposition forces still hold the territory that was attacked.
Manach wrote: » So ancient villages populated by Christians (as per various Church/NGO sources) are such,?
Tony EH wrote: » It's only "cut and dried" to people who desperately want to be so. The actual FACT of the matter is that there is NO proof whatsoever available on who it was that carried out the attack.
