realweirdo wrote: » It was either Assad who carried it out or the rebels. So in your opinion who was it? My own belief is it was Assad. Your belief seems to be that you don't know, you haven't been able to process the information quickly enough.
realweirdo wrote: » You seem to assume also that anyone who believes it was Assad forces who carried it out are automatically stupid which is frankly bullsh*t.
realweirdo wrote: » I will repeat only Assad had the means, motive, lack of morality and everything else you want to mention in regard to this.
realweirdo wrote: » In other words I am in absolutely no doubt as is most of the world that the 21st August Chemical attack was CARRIED OUT BY ASSAD.
realweirdo wrote: » As for evidence there is litterly tons of it...You are unwilling to listen to any evidence that points to Assad, while at the same time not coming up with even one piece of hard firm evidence that points to the FSA.
realweirdo wrote: » Because he is stupid...that's if he actually ordered it which is a mute point in any regard. The latest intel (German) is that commanders on the ground were pushing for its use for months beforehand which he refused. My own view is that he either gave the go ahead or more likely a local commander under pressure from above to push back rebels ordered its use. It was a dumb dumb move, but then again Assad is a dumb president. He has brought his country to disaster through bad decision after bad decision.
Sierra Oscar wrote: » Very interesting development today, the US Secretary of State has stated that no military intervention will occur if Syria hands over its chemical weapons. That won't happen, but it shows that the US is trying to back out of undertaking military action now.
Cork boy 55 wrote: » I cannot believe there is still people doubting that the Loyalists carried out the attack its not an Agatha murder mystery Its a binary choice 1=loyalist element 0=insurgents element The probability is 1 that it is loyalist element The probability is 0 that it is insurgents element To suggest that the insurgents carried out the attack is utterly upsurd Are we to believe that -in the BESIEGED relativity small enclave of the Ghouta -that There exists A COVERT insurgent rocket regiment unit which process tons of Sarin gas chemical weapons, chemical weapons rockets warheads, chemical weapon delivery system -A rather large quantity of all -and the training, discipline and co-ordination to use them -which launched a mass co-coordinated accurate simultaneous strike at dozens of targets spread across the city on one of the few days the wind was blowing from the east -slaughtering their own population support base, comrades and endangering the ghouta enclave arguable the most decisive and key terrain in whole of Syria -and kept this conspiracy a secret . -Without any evidence that any of these thing exist(the units the weapons the systems the plot the means) We know The loyalist process all these things within range of the Ghouta. Why did they Block the UN inspectors Why did they set fires to purify the Air Why did they shell the neighborhood extensively afterwards Why have they now launched an all-out assault against the Ghouta the first part of which was the chemical massacre to break the population which they threw everything at in the conventional arsenal and all their best units and failed previously The Ghouta is critical terrain however controls it wins the war in the west The loyalist have already lost in the north and east there only hope is a New state of west Syria and if they want The South-west of the country and not the just the cost they have to crush the Ghouta its the Most important and decisive patch of terrain in the state. The chemical massacre is merely a extension of the campaign of democide waged against unloyal populations by the loyalists .
dublinbhoy88 wrote: » Any proof besides your propaganda?
bumper234 wrote: » Did you really need to quote all of that just for a 5 word answer?
Cork boy 55 wrote: » "Assessing Chemical Weapons Use in Syria" 17 minutes video detailing the munitions found at sites of the chemical massacre in Ghouta 21 August by RUSI(Royal United Services Institute)http://www.rusi.org/analysis/videos/ref:V522D9DF12E360#.Ui27t9KsiSp
Cork boy 55 wrote: » I cannot believe there is still people doubting that the Loyalists carried out the attack its not an Agatha murder mystery
Cork boy 55 wrote: » To suggest that the insurgents carried out the attack is utterly upsurd Are we to believe that -in the BESIEGED relativity small enclave of the Ghouta -that There exists A COVERT insurgent rocket regiment unit which process tons of Sarin gas chemical weapons, chemical weapons rockets warheads, chemical weapon delivery system
Cork boy 55 wrote: » -A rather large quantity of all
Cork boy 55 wrote: » -and the training, discipline and co-ordination to use them
Cork boy 55 wrote: » -which launched a mass co-coordinated accurate simultaneous strike at dozens of targets spread across the city on one of the few days the wind was blowing from the east
Tony EH wrote: » Without actual proof, this means nothing. There are people on the opposite side from Assad who are well capable of such actions. This cannot be discounted. There are some EXTREMELY unsavory groups operating in Syria. Nobody has offered anything to suggest that the attack was carried out in that manner and Sarin (if indeed that was used) can be delivered in very simple ways. It doesn't need a rocket. You wouldn't need a large quantity of product to do damage. 5 guys in Tokyo caused 5000+ casualties in the 90's. The insurgents are not some rag tag "Red Dawn" type group, they are populated by many different types of people, some of which are from Syria's own military forces, coupled with the fact that there are many jihadist groups within the ranks of the rebels, who have been fighting in some way for over 10 years. "Training" doesn't come into it. AGAIN, 5 guys from some loony religious group carried out a devastating, highly orchestrated, sarin attack in the Tokyo underground. If they can do it, it certainly isn't byond the capabilities of Al Qaeda to do it. That's for sure. It may well turn out that it was Assad's forces, or elements within. It's all up in the air, and without solid actual proof, it remains up in the air. What matters is proof, that shows without a doubt that the attack came from a certain quarter. Without such, it's just speculation. But, again...the salient question remains, WHY would Assad carry out this attack, when the consequences are so dangerous to his position? It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. His forces have the upper hand. He really has NOTHING to gain employing an attack of this nature... ...and everything to lose.
dublinbhoy88 wrote: » What part of the states are you from?
Scofflaw wrote: » dublinbhoy, you're really not contributing anything worth reading to the debate here. Up your game, or don't post - and by "up your game" I mean deal with people's arguments and evidence, refute them where you can, and where you can't, don't just post one-liners saying it's all propaganda, that people are shills or the like. Other people can make up their own minds on the evidence presented, and your interjections don't make any difference to that. Before you post an outraged reply to this, accusing me of being a supporter of whatever it may be, please read the forum charter, or you'll have even more to complain about. moderately, Scofflaw
dublinbhoy88 wrote: » If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen as the saying goes
Cork boy 55 wrote: » Just because you say things like "Nobody" does make them true There's overwhelming evidence from analysis,witness and sources that it was a rocket attack see the video posted in last post for example, including extensive UXO material.
Cork boy 55 wrote: » The Tokyo Subway attack was carried out by a moderate sized well-financed cult with years of planning in a Country filled with heavy chemical industry using LIQUID sarin and only killed 13 and severely injured 50 people the vast majority of casualties where minor it's possible in crowded underground enclosed areas to cause large number of minor causalities you can do this simply by releasing smoke FFS. There is NO comparison and anyone that try's is merely pedaling misinformation like your cry of 5000+ casualties by 5 men
Cork boy 55 wrote: » It would require many tons of Sarin to kill and sicken that many people in the Ghouta
Cork boy 55 wrote: » Why are applying logic, control, rational and competence to Loyalist leadership these people are insane, savages and amoral, They losing the war on most fronts july/August where the most successful months of insurgency so far with the introduction...
Cork boy 55 wrote: » Your assertion that Al-qauda carried out the attack shows a serious lack of understanding of Syrian conflict They DO NOT want Intervention. Anyone who things they carried this out does not have a clue
Tony EH wrote: » Claim, allegation, rumour and hearsay is not evidence. Only factual evidence, backed by proof, is of any use. It's a perfectly valid comparison, and amply demonstrates the HUGE holes in your argument. It doesn't matter if you don't want to accept it. The fact still remains that the Aum Shinrikyo were able to carry out a chemical attack, with minimal resources and a a few men. Their first attack was delivered from the back of a truck. It simply doesn't take a massive attack to cause devastation using chemical weapons. This is part of the reason why they are considered such a contentious issue. No, it wouldn't need "many" tons and such an attack could be delivered in a various number of ways. Assad's forces are winning the war on the ground, according to the majority of sources. Whatever :rolleyes:
Cork boy 55 wrote: » Number of dead Tokyo 13 Number of dead Ghouta 1500
Cork boy 55 wrote: » Yes it would require tons of military grade Sarin to sicken that many people in the outside over such wide area, LD50 for Sarin is 70 mg/m3/min by inhalation or 1700 mg/70kg by percutaneous route Which means a full LRM battalion in use
Cork boy 55 wrote: » As for Assad is "winning the war" This is false, everything has changed in last month since battle of al-qusayr
Tony EH wrote: » Nothing solid has been put forward on the death toll. There is no agreement on a number from any quarter. Not even the Syrian opposition forces are claiming 1500 dead. Nothing solid has been put forward on any of what is suposed to have happened. You can believe whatever you wish, no doubt you'll go for the highest, because your mind is made up. But more robust proof is needed. As for the low death toll in Japan (in fact there were no deaths in the underground attack), that's attributable to Japanese authorities speed of movement and reaction to the attack, no doubt spurred on the previous sarin attack carried out by the same group. The subway attack, carried out by just 5 men caused over 5000 casualties, using a tiny amount of the chemical. Their first attack, using an even smaller amount from teh back of a truck, caused hundreds of casualties. Sarin is an extremely potent weapon. No...it wouldn't. Sarin is EXTREMELY toxic, many hundreds more times than various cyanide forms, in fact. A single drop can kill and it's extremely volitle, in as much that it can evaporate into the atmosphere with great speed.
Sierra Oscar wrote: » The Russian Foreign Minister has indicated that it will work with Syria to ensure that its chemical weapons stockpile is secured by international forces should it prevent military intervention from occurring. The Foreign Minister said that Syria would have no objections to this and it could happen if practical problems can be overcome. Non-intervention starting to look increasingly likely as each day passes?
alastair wrote: » Hopefully. I'm inclined to believe Assad's side are responsible for this attack, but a disciplinary response in the form of cruise missiles seems like an unwieldy tool.
Sierra Oscar wrote: » Its not too often you see the UN & Russia working together despite the best efforts of the US to thwart their plans, usually it is the other way around!
Amerika wrote: » But in defeat he will achieve what might have been his ultimate goal all along. That is to diminish the USA’s power and influence on the wold stage, and as best he can within the constraints of the US constitution, turn us into pseudo feckless social-democratic European state. And the media will join him in his blame game, and rejoice in fundamentally transforming the US back to the days of Jimmy Carter.
Rascasse wrote: » In Syria we have up to 1500 killed in across several towns and villages.
Rascasse wrote: » ...the eyewitness reports of hearing rockets flying overhead but no explosions all points to an attack using a chemical the rebels don't have with a delivery system they don't have. There really can only be one credible perpetrator - the Syrian armed forces.
Rascasse wrote: » As for why? Well they are fighting an insurrection, not regular forces, so perhaps it was to break the rebels will. Perhaps it was to to strike fear into the population as even if they regain control of the rebel areas they will still need to control the population in the longer term.
Sierra Oscar wrote: » The Syrian Foreign Minister has just welcomed Russia's proposal, as has UN General Secretary Ban Ki-moon. Ban Ki-moon has said that he himself was considering putting forward such a proposal to the UN Security Council. It just keeps getting worse for Cameron and Obama, starting to emerge that they most definitely jumped the gun initially in thinking that immediate military intervention was the only solution. Hollande has gone very quite now too. Its not too often you see the UN & Russia working together despite the best efforts of the US to thwart their plans, usually it is the other way around! EDIT: Cameron has released a statement saying it would be a "big step forward" if Syria handed over control of its chemical weapons to an international force, and that military intervention may not be necessary. Game changer, again.
