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When is a bus lane not a bus lane....

Zulu

Quick one for you here.

If a bus lane is open from 7am to 7pm, outside those hours, does the ordinary lane to the right become an overtaking lane (in effect)?

I accept that very few in this country ever see a bus lane as anything but, and that we'll never crack the overtaking lane issue. So consider this thought exercise!

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djimi

Uriel. wrote: »

In terms of the bus lane on a public holiday Monday, I generally (though with some apprehension) use them and that is solely on the basis that on public holidays Dublin Bus reverts to a Sunday bus schedules/timetables - e.g. a reduced service and no express buses etc..

It relates only to Dublin and there are more bus operators than DB, but most other operators (BE and Swords express for example, also have a reduced timetable on Sundays (which then becomes applicable on public holidays)

So in my mind, at least, if buses are operating to a Sunday schedule on bank holidays Mondays, for example, it is a reasonable argument to make that bus lane restrictions apply as they would/or wouldn't on a Sunday - e.g. mostly free access for all vehicles (save the 24 Mon-Sun bus lanes).

I am of the opinion that if bus lanes were available for general use on bank holidays then it would say so on the signs (as it usually does on parking signs). Its worth bearing in mind that bus lanes are there for the use of more than just buses, and to make the assumption that they can be used on a bank holiday because Dublin Bus run a Sunday service on a bank holiday is a bit foolhardy. You could well be right, but I dont think Id bother taking a chance unless I saw some official confirmation to say that a bus lane can be used on a bank holiday.

pippip

I think a few people on here are mistaking rules of the road for actual traffic laws.

They do not take into account every aspect of driving.

You get prosecuted for breaking traffic laws not breaking the rules of the road.

[Deleted User]

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm fairly certain they legally have to display the hours in order to be a valid bus lane

Not true. All thats needed it the road marking and blue sign. Asked this question on here before, and someone contacted Traffic Corps who confirmed.

A bus lane with no times displayed is a bus lane at all times.

_Kaiser_

djimi wrote: »

I am of the opinion that if bus lanes were available for general use on bank holidays then it would say so on the signs (as it usually does on parking signs). Its worth bearing in mind that bus lanes are there for the use of more than just buses, and to make the assumption that they can be used on a bank holiday because Dublin Bus run a Sunday service on a bank holiday is a bit foolhardy. You could well be right, but I dont think Id bother taking a chance unless I saw some official confirmation to say that a bus lane can be used on a bank holiday.

I'd agree on this one

As I said above, if the sign says Monday to Saturday that's what it means. Just because Dublin Bus choose to run a reduced service on bank holidays is irrelevant. Equally too the "normal business hours" argument.

If it said Mon-Sat 7am-7pm then that's what I'd be going by myself, regardless of what "day" it is.

_Kaiser_

Deleted User wrote: »

Not true. All thats needed it the road marking and blue sign. Asked this question on here before, and someone contacted Traffic Corps who confirmed.

A bus lane with no times displayed is a bus lane at all times.

But if there's no sign at all, just the road markings? That's what I was getting at

Marcusm

djimi wrote: »

That link says that that list is the most common road markings; not that it is the complete list. Even if they are informative road markings, they still show that the "normal" driving lane continues into the right hand lane. On a normal "one becomes two" lane road, this is not the case.

Point well made but going back to your original point, if you must respect the curvy arrow at all times, the bus lane is never open to normal traffic which is a bit reductio ad absurdum.

That being said, you've piqued my interest and it seems to be traffic sign RRM 006 as set out in reg 13 SI181/1997 (which may have been amended) and it is "must proceed". Taking this strictly, all non bus traffic must first move to the right then in order to drive in the left most available lane, must at some early stage thereafter indicate left and move into the bus lane. While this may seem absurd, it's surely no less absurd than believing the bus lane operational times are irrelevant. A typical inconsistency. Can't imagine many get fined for not using bus lanes and the curved arrow is frankly superfluous for them anyway - maye that's the problem.

Marcusm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

But if there's no sign at all, just the road markings? That's what I was getting at

The law seems to require both but as I commented above, good luck getting that enforced if you're summonsed. (RRM = road markings, RUS= upright sign)

Bus Lane.
27. (1) Traffic sign number RRM 024 shall, in association with traffic sign number RUS 028, RUS 029 or RUS 030, indicate a bus lane.

(2) The sign to which sub-article (1) refers shall consist of—

(a) a continuous white line, or lines, 250 millimetres wide, save where one edge of the bus lane coincides with the centre line of a roadway between the bus lane and an adjoining traffic lane; and
(b) lettering consisting of the words "BUS LÁNA", the dimensions and design of which shall be as set out in the diagram contained in section 4 of the Seventh Schedule.

Del2005

mackerski wrote: »

This is a case of careless road marking. Usually where things are set up this way, buses routinely proceed straight from that lane, so either the buses are breaking the law or a car outside bus lane hours is not.

Or has anybody spotted an exception in law?

They usually have a "Except buses" written in front of the left turn arrow. Not sure how legal the writing on the road is. Though I have noticed on a few roads that had a left turn only arrow now have a straight and left arrow.

djimi

Marcusm wrote: »

Point well made but going back to your original point, if you must respect the curvy arrow at all times, the bus lane is never open to normal traffic which is a bit reductio ad absurdum.

That being said, you've piqued my interest and it seems to be traffic sign RRM 006 as set out in reg 13 SI181/1997 (which may have been amended) and it is "must proceed". Taking this strictly, all non bus traffic must first move to the right then in order to drive in the left most available lane, must at some early stage thereafter indicate left and move into the bus lane. While this may seem absurd, it's surely no less absurd than believing the bus lane operational times are irrelevant. A typical inconsistency. Can't imagine many get fined for not using bus lanes and the curved arrow is frankly superfluous for them anyway - maye that's the problem.

I think the point of the arrows (as I can see it anyway) is simply to indicate that the "normal" driving lane continues to the right when it becomes a two lane road with the bus lane on the left. To me it just means that the normal flow of traffic continues to the right. You can then move into the bus lane if you wish, but (for me anyway) if the marking indicate that the normal driving lane continues to the right of the bus lane then that lane remains the normal driving lane.

To be honest I have a feeling that Anan is correct in saying that a bus lane is technically a separate carraigeway rather than a seperate lane (meaning that a one lane road that then has a bus lane to the left is still technically a one lane road); Im pretty sure I have seen this written before, but having searched for it now I cant find anything to back that up.

antodeco

Hi all,
Got a response off both the CIty Council and Dublin bus in relation to Bus Lanes on a public holiday.

From Dublin bus

HI

Generally they can be used on Bank Holidays, but you would need to verify this with Dublin City Council, as they outline the rules relating to same.

Regards

Pauline

From Dublin City CouncilL

The legislation applies that Bank Holidays are considered as a Sunday.

Therefore depending on particular Bus Lanes you can drive in them on a Bank Holiday, if the sign indicates Monday to Saturday.

Yours sincerely,

Darren

Darren McCarthy, Sergeant
Divisional Clerk,

DMR Traffic.

_Kaiser_

antodeco wrote: »

Hi all,
Got a response off both the CIty Council and Dublin bus in relation to Bus Lanes on a public holiday.

From Dublin bus

From Dublin City CouncilL

I stand corrected so

djimi

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I stand corrected so

Good to get some clarification on it.

Shame they couldnt put that on the signage.

[Deleted User]

djimi wrote: »

Good to get some clarification on it.

Shame they couldnt put that on the signage.

Im not convinced until we get clarification off the the gardai since they are the ones issuing the fines for it.

Uriel.

antodeco wrote: »

Hi all,
Got a response off both the CIty Council and Dublin bus in relation to Bus Lanes on a public holiday.

From Dublin bus

From Dublin City CouncilL

It's nice to be right

paddy147

The M50 link road at Northern Cross/Hilton Hotel has a bus lane on either side of it.

It used to be a 24/7 bus lane.

Its since been decommissioned and is a normal traffic lane on either side again.

But they left the bus lane markings in place.

ectoraige

djimi wrote: »

Would road markings not come into play when deciding if a bus lane becomes the normal driving lane outside of operational hours? When approaching a bus lane, the main driving lane is directed right and the markings will continue the lane to the right. Even outside of bus lane operational hours, would this not mean that the main driving lane remains to be to the right of the bus lane?

If the road markings meant that traffic should be directed right outside of operational hours, would those same road markings not also mean the buses should be directed right during operational hours? The road markings don't have an 'except buses' clause.

djimi

ectoraige wrote: »

If the road markings meant that traffic should be directed right outside of operational hours, would those same road markings not also mean the buses should be directed right during operational hours? The road markings don't have an 'except buses' clause.

Buses are directed to the right also; its just that during bus lane operational hours they can then move left into the bus lane. The markings tend to be arrows pointing right, and a diagonal broken line at the end of the bus lane. Technically (as I see it anyway) the bus is following the normal driving lane and then merging left (as opposed to driving straight into the bus lane), if that makes sense.

ectoraige

djimi wrote: »

Buses are directed to the right also; its just that during bus lane operational hours they can then move left into the bus lane. The markings tend to be arrows pointing right, and a diagonal broken line at the end of the bus lane. Technically (as I see it anyway) the bus is following the normal driving lane and then merging left (as opposed to driving straight into the bus lane), if that makes sense.

Following the same logic then, outside of operational hours all traffic can then perform the same "merging left" you describe. i.e. plow on straight into the bus lane.

djimi

ectoraige wrote: »

Following the same logic then, outside of operational hours all traffic can then perform the same "merging left" you describe. i.e. plow on straight into the bus lane.

Of course they can. Thats not the issue though; the question is whether or not the normal flow of traffic is obliged to move into the bus lane when it is not operational, when the road markings suggest that the "normal" traffic lane is being directed to the right at the start of the bus lane.

Zulu

djimi wrote: »

Of course they can. Thats not the issue though; the question is whether or not the normal flow of traffic is obliged to move into the bus lane when it is not operational, when the road markings suggest that the "normal" traffic lane is being directed to the right at the start of the bus lane.

Wut?

djimi

Zulu wrote: »

Wut?

What dont you understand?

ectoraige

djimi wrote: »

Of course they can. Thats not the issue though; the question is whether or not the normal flow of traffic is obliged to move into the bus lane when it is not operational, when the road markings suggest that the "normal" traffic lane is being directed to the right at the start of the bus lane.

Well, are you satisfied that the road markings are not a barrier to entering the left lane in the first place?

If so, then the rule to drive in the leftmost lane would suggest that people should do so. However, I guess the argument then is whether the bus lane is another lane, or a carriageway, as there would not be an obligation to use a particular carriageway. The name "bus lane" would suggest that it's a lane, not a carriageway, or even a motorway. However, the continuous white line would suggest that it be treated as a seperate carriageway.

whomitconcerns

afaik the thicker white line signifies that its a "separate" road not that you cant cross it, hence you wouldn't be obliged to treat it as the leftmost lane..its a separate parallel road, merely you can only drive on it as signposted. Anyway..I have always used them on Bank hols and have never been stopped by the guards.

But its like a lot of the rules in this country..and the guards will tell you this "youll be grand, unless you got a fella in a bad mood"..Other examples see no nct while waiting on test, no tax disc while waiting on tax disc, etc etc....

"Youll be grand...unless"

djimi

ectoraige wrote: »

Well, are you satisfied that the road markings are not a barrier to entering the left lane in the first place?

If so, then the rule to drive in the leftmost lane would suggest that people should do so.

I am querying whether the main lane being directed into the right hand lane supersedes the law to always keep to the left hand lane (as road markings always supersede the general law). I dont know if this is the case or not, but it is my interpretation that if the general flow of traffic is being directed to the right by the road markings then in the absence of any signage to say otherwise all traffic must remain right unless they wish to use the bus lane. Its only an interpretation though.

ectoraige wrote: »

However, I guess the argument then is whether the bus lane is another lane, or a carriageway, as there would not be an obligation to use a particular carriageway. The name "bus lane" would suggest that it's a lane, not a carriageway, or even a motorway. However, the continuous white line would suggest that it be treated as a seperate carriageway.

As I said earlier I have a feeling that a bus lane is considered to be a seperate carraigeway rather than another lane, but I cannot find anying to back that up (or contradict it).

One thing that leads me to believe that a bus lane is a seperate carraigeway is that if it was simply another lane then no vehicle in it would legally be allowed to undertake the traffic which is travelling in the right hand lane.

Marcusm

djimi wrote: »

Of course they can. Thats not the issue though; the question is whether or not the normal flow of traffic is obliged to move into the bus lane when it is not operational, when the road markings suggest that the "normal" traffic lane is being directed to the right at the start of the bus lane.

Having looked at some google maps examples, these arrows seem (from my non representative sample) to be the minority, i.e. most I've looked at have them only sporadically and certainly not at every major junction. So how do you feel one should proceed in the absence of these arrows? I don't buy the separate carriageway suggestion. Carriageway is merely the vehicle part of the road (the other part being defined as the footway). Nothing suggests that the bus lanes are a separate road and the thick white lines are lane separators which necessarily run along bus lanes.

whomitconcerns

thick white line marks the edge of a road..so they are 2 separate roads..in a manner of speaking

wil

Quote:
Originally Posted by doolox

I doubt there would be a guard that would pull you over for brief and sensible use of a buslane to enter or exit a tight sideroad or commercial parking space mor safely and cleanly without disrupting other road users.

plys wrote: »

I wouldn't bet on that. I got penalty points on two separate occasions for 'marginal' use of bus lane, where common sense was most definitely NOT applied.

By 'marginal', I mean cutting across the end of a bus lane by about 5 metres to enter a left filter lane (one example was southbound on Drumcondra Road approaching the junction with Clonliffe Road, for anyone who knows the area)

I guess you have to take in to account where most learned to drive, so do so pretty much as well or as badly as everyone else. Therefore a possibility of applying a rule without understanding a road safety contradiction.

wil

My greatest concern with bus lanes is the extent they are used as overtaking lanes, essentially undertaking, particularly by taxis.

In light traffic, on 3 lane carriageway, you can have a taxi overtake you on the inside lane:eek:, where it would seem correct or appropriate for them to overtake in the normal manner, whatever speed they wish to do.

What is the legal position on this form of overtaking?

Anan1

wil wrote: »

What is the legal position on this form of overtaking?

I suppose that depends on whether or not the bus lane is a separate carriageway.

djimi

Marcusm wrote: »

Having looked at some google maps examples, these arrows seem (from my non representative sample) to be the minority, i.e. most I've looked at have them only sporadically and certainly not at every major junction. So how do you feel one should proceed in the absence of these arrows?

Id still probably be inclined to say that other road markings (the lines on the road) are directing traffic towards the right, but to be honest Im just guessing more than anything. I might not be right about the arrows either; its simply how I interpret the markings on the road.

Marcusm wrote: »

I don't buy the separate carriageway suggestion. Carriageway is merely the vehicle part of the road (the other part being defined as the footway). Nothing suggests that the bus lanes are a separate road and the thick white lines are lane separators which necessarily run along bus lanes.

It is possible for it to be a seperate carraigeway (or however you want to word it) rather than another driving lane. A slip road for example would not be considered to be the inside lane, and would be considered to be a seperate carraigeway from the main carraigeway.