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Irish woman raped in India

DenMan

Poor woman. I'm so angry! India and its backward patriarchal society should be made to pay for its evil and heinous crimes! :mad:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/indian-police-investigating-rape-of-irish-woman-make-an-arrest-596453.html

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imtdub

Anynama141 wrote: »

I wonder will this get as much coverage in India as the case of the unfortunate Savita Halappanavar, where Ireland was cast as a land of savages?

It has been reported in Times of India 24 hrs ago....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/Irish-woman-alleges-rape-after-party-in-Kolkata/articleshow/20401577.cms

Karl Stein

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

What the Hell was she thinking going off with him?

That he was a normal non-rapist person?

starling

Anynama141 wrote: »

I agree with you, but I can see the point he's making even if I disagree with it.

I you leave your windows open when you go on holiday, it doesn't mean it's suddenly ok to rob your house. But it's smarter to close the windows.

Oh here we go again
Rape =/= burglary
Rape is a crime against the person. It has more in common with say ABH or GBH.
So now. If you are alone in a room with a man and he suddenly decides to batter the everlivin sh1te out of you, with absolutely no provocation, whose fault is that?
Is it your fault for visiting a foreign country?
Is it your fault for wearing whatever you were wearing?
Is it your fault for being alone in a room with him?
Or is it his fault for suddenly battering you?

starling

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

That he was a normal non-rapist person?

She obviously missed all the obvious clues like the dirty mac and the wild-eyed look and all that. Cause we should all be able to spot a rapist at fifty paces amirite

Tigger

Boombastic wrote: »

It could be possible, but I doubt it. What happened to an Indian woman was a catalyst for change here.

Nothing in the proposed legislation would change what happen to her

starling

Apparently his lawyer is arguing that he couldn't have done it because he wasn't drunk
That's a new one on me

Anynama141

starling wrote: »

Oh here we go again
Rape =/= burglary
Rape is a crime against the person. It has more in common with say ABH or GBH.
So now. If you are alone in a room with a man and he suddenly decides to batter the everlivin sh1te out of you, with absolutely no provocation, whose fault is that?
Is it your fault for visiting a foreign country?
Is it your fault for wearing whatever you were wearing?
Is it your fault for being alone in a room with him?
Or is it his fault for suddenly battering you?

Starling, please stop making fatuous comparisons between rape and burglary. It really diminishes the seriousness of the crime.

Either that, or you desperately need to learn some logic.

Would you understand the comparison better if I said that if you walk through the middle of a bar fight, it's not suddenly ok for someone to punch you, but you'd be smarter to walk around it?

otto_26

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Never mind focusing on India. We might be better served, applying the same approach to the clowns running our own country.

Or more importantly the clowns that voted them into power.

[Deleted User]

Anynama141 wrote: »

Starling, please stop making fatuous comparisons between rape and burglary. It really diminishes the seriousness of the crime.

That is the opposite of what she was doing.

daingeanrob

hope she gets the support she NEEDS, so far from home in a foreign country/system. i also hope her family don't see this thread.

Anynama141

Candie wrote: »

That is the opposite of what she was doing.

It appears that she was trying to pretend that I was comparing the crimes, or else her reading comprehension is so poor that that is what she took from the post.

I was returning the favour.

starling

daingeanrob wrote: »

hope she gets the support she NEEDS, so far from home in a foreign country/system. i also hope her family don't see this thread.

Yeah. I'd be fcukin disgusted. No wait I'm already disgusted.

On the off chance that anyone is actually interested in the facts of this case, she was unconscious when he had sex with her. Allegedly, we don't know.
I feel like giving my thumbs RSI for sone reason so I'm just going to restate two basic facts here;

If you have sex with an unconscious person, you are committing rape.
If a rape is committed the person at fault is the rapist and no-one else.

kraggy

There's been another alleged rape. This time an American woman.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/tourist-raped-in-indian-resort-town-29319425.html

Will there be an end to this at all? Or is it just that modern day communications/Internet have meant that we are simply hearing more of these incidents but that the number happening has not increased at all?

Anynama141

starling wrote: »

If you have sex with an unconscious person, you are committing rape.
If a rape is committed the person at fault is the rapist and no-one else.

Agreed. And if someone robs your house or punches you or shoots you, the person at fault is the person who does it and no-one else.

Pumpkinseeds

People can attack my previous post as much as they like, it doesn't change the fact that India is a sh*thole, notorious for sex crimes against women. Any woman who goes off alone in India, especially with a man she doesn't know, is taking a huge risk. As I said earlier I'm not saying she deserved it.

Basic common sense should prevail, India is just 1 country known to have very odd ideas about women and as such it is down to women to be particularly careful when travelling in that kind of country. She's extremely fortunate not to have been gang raped and murdered.

old hippy

DenMan wrote: »

No just the Government and how the country is ran!

And that will stop the act of rape, will it? Astounding.

Czarcasm

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

People can attack my previous post as much as they like, it doesn't change the fact that India is a sh*thole, notorious for sex crimes against women. Any woman who goes off alone in India, especially with a man she doesn't know, is taking a huge risk. As I said earlier I'm not saying she deserved it.

Basic common sense should prevail, India is just 1 country known to have very odd ideas about women and as such it is down to women to be particularly careful when travelling in that kind of country. She's extremely fortunate not to have been gang raped and murdered.

I think though in fairness Pumpkinseeds you could apply the above to any country in the world. There was a case in Limerick only a few years back when a couple were attacked and the man's girlfriend was gang raped while the boyfriend was made to witness it happen but powerless to stop them.

As I also said in a previous post, there are men, women and children right now in Ireland being raped and tortured and these cases will probably never be reported to the authorities, let alone be reported on the international media stage, so to suggest it's more prevalent in India because of their attitude towards women, I think that's more a misguided perception based on your lack of experience rather than any actual facts to back up your assertions.

And no, even applying common sense to oneself doesn't minimize or reduce the risk of someone else failing to apply common sense before they commit rape.

mangochavez

Candie wrote: »

Cop yourself on.

Seriously though, what can *realistically* be done to prevent rape, further than that which is already in place? Lust and theft are both unfortunate facts of life, and as long as the two things exist, there will always be rape in every society.

Many people seem to naively demand a perfect world, without taking into consideration the deeper facts of existence; that suffering will always manifest in a multitude of ways across the board. All that can realistically be done in terms of prevention is already being done, and what's best is simply that women take precautions against being victimized, just as we all do when we buy burglar alarms or locks for our back doors.

[Deleted User]

mangochavez wrote: »

Seriously though, what can *realistically* be done to prevent rape, further than that which is already in place? Lust and theft are both unfortunate facts of life, and as long as the two things exist, there will always be rape in every society.

Many people seem to naively demand a perfect world, without taking into consideration the deeper facts of existence; that suffering will always manifest in a multitude of ways across the board. All that can realistically be done in terms of prevention is already being done, and what's best is simply that women take precautions against being victimized, just as we all do when we buy burglar alarms or locks for our back doors.

The deeper facts of our existence is that we only have agency over ourselves. So rapists can choose not to rape, trolls not to troll, and women not to listen when they are expected to police the violent actions of some men by treating all men with suspicion.

Equally we can choose to absolve ourselves of responsibility for our acts by deciding that's just the way it is, that other people must take action to prevent us acting on our baser instincts, and if they don't they are to blame for what we do, and that anyone who disagrees with this course is lacking insight, or naive. What a wonderful world it would be if we can act with the impunity that divesting ourselves of blame allows us.

Stupid argument.

Pumpkinseeds

Czarcasm wrote: »

I think though in fairness Pumpkinseeds you could apply the above to any country in the world. There was a case in Limerick only a few years back when a couple were attacked and the man's girlfriend was gang raped while the boyfriend was made to witness it happen but powerless to stop them.

As I also said in a previous post, there are men, women and children right now in Ireland being raped and tortured and these cases will probably never be reported to the authorities, let alone be reported on the international media stage, so to suggest it's more prevalent in India because of their attitude towards women, I think that's more a misguided perception based on your lack of experience rather than any actual facts to back up your assertions.

And no, even applying common sense to oneself doesn't minimize or reduce the risk of someone else failing to apply common sense before they commit rape.

I recall that rape case in Limerick, Cratloe woods as far as I remember. I'm well aware that rape and sexual abuse takes place in Ireland. I think people need a bit of common sense as I said earlier. Going off to the woods at night wasn't a smart thing to do either. There is never any justification for rape, under any circumstances. Adults need to take some personal responsibility for their own safety. As children my parents drilled the need to keep ourselves safe in to us. The most basic of which was don't go off with strangers.

As for personal experience I'm not sure what you mean by that. India is a sinkhole, with children scavaging rubbish heaps in order to stay alive, rivers teeming with excrement and incidents of rape of women and children are sky high. It's not a safe country particularly for women. Limerick and the rest of Ireland doesn't have gangs of rapists scouring their vicinity for women to rape. I'm not likely to encounter a bus driver here, travelling his route with his mates looking for a woman to rape on the bus.

India is not a safe place for women so I'm not sure why you want to portray it as being as safe as any other country. That in my opinion is misguided and naive.

mangochavez

Anynama141 wrote: »

Agreed. And if someone robs your house or punches you or shoots you, the person at fault is the person who does it and no-one else.

No one is arguing other than that.

Many people when discussing such issues as the ones in this thread put far too much emphasis on terms like "blame", "victim", "perpetrator" etc. forgetting that these are abstractions useful only in facilitating the convention of legal punishment and do not actually possess concrete existence adherent to logic. This results in innumerable logical fallacies on the side of the (mostly) females. Two people's choices can contribute a morally wrong action by one of the parties, without the other being responsible in the sense of being guilty of a wrongdoing.

Einhard

I haven't seen anyone blame the victim in this thread, and I don't think there should be such an underhand insinuation.

I recently decided not to visit a particular country because I heard reports that violent crime against tourists can be a problem there, and that it is not reported upon. Would I have been at fault if I had went and been attacked? of course not. But I decide to go somewhere else, where that risk was considerably lower.

Is it ever the victim's fault in rape or sexual assault cases? Of course not. But avoiding areas where one is more likely to be assaulted or harassed is always a good idea if possible, and pointing that out is in no way apportioning responsibility on anyone else but the attacker. I know several girls who have put plans to visit Inida on hold because of the problems women have there, and I'd completely agree with that decision.

mangochavez

Candie wrote: »

The deeper facts of our existence is that we only have agency over ourselves. So rapists can choose not to rape, trolls not to troll, and women not to listen when they are expected to police the violent actions of some men by treating all men with suspicion.

Equally we can choose to absolve ourselves of responsibility for our acts by deciding that's just the way it is, that other people must take action to prevent us acting on our baser instincts, and if they don't they are to blame for what we do, and that anyone who disagrees with this course is lacking insight, or naive. What a wonderful world it would be if we can act with the impunity that divesting ourselves of blame allows us.

Stupid argument.

But is saying "please don't rape" to a potential rapist really going to be in any way effective in preventing rape?

You twisted my argument to an absurd level, exemplifying what kind of a discussion you wish to have; certainly not an open minded one in any sense.

Czarcasm

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I recall that rape case in Limerick, Cratloe woods as far as I remember. I'm well aware that rape and sexual abuse takes place in Ireland. I think people need a bit of common sense as I said earlier. Going off to the woods at night wasn't a smart thing to do either. There is never any justification for rape, under any circumstances. Adults need to take some personal responsibility for their own safety. As children my parents drilled the need to keep ourselves safe in to us. The most basic of which was don't go off with strangers.

Having grown up in the country some 30 years ago when rape and abuse were apparently rampant in catholic Ireland, I never had any fear as a child of disappearing into the woods for days and returning home safe a few days later. Would I let my child off like that now? Fcuk no! Do I have to balance that with fostering my child's independence? Absolutely.

So yes, while I understand what you mean by applying common sense, you can apply as much common sense as you like and drill it into a child about their personal safety and so on, BUT, it only takes that one time you let them out of the protective bubble. You can't keep them in there forever, and while you may influence how your child thinks, you cannot influence the thoughts of another person unknown to you.

As for personal experience I'm not sure what you mean by that. India is a sinkhole, with children scavaging rubbish heaps in order to stay alive, rivers teeming with excrement and incidents of rape of women and children are sky high.

"Sky high" isn't a very valid metric when you're talking about a country of a billion people and when you fail to take into account that it has one of the biggest steel industries in the world, it has some of the most culturally significant architecture in the world, some of the richest and most well educated people in the world, and indeed their freshly prepared Indian dishes have to be tasted to be believed, prepared with fresh water of course.

(ironic actually as here in Ireland where I work, I have to buy 30 litres of bottled water a month because we cannot drink the lime water out of the taps!).

You're only picking up on what you've seen reported in the media, but if you actually did your research, you'd find that India isn't quite the shìthole you make it out to be either!

It's not a safe country particularly for women.

Have you been to America lately? One of the most developed nations in the world. Is ANY country in the world safe for anyone? Not even particularly for women.

Limerick and the rest of Ireland doesn't have gangs of rapists scouring their vicinity for women to rape. I'm not likely to encounter a bus driver here, travelling his route with his mates looking for a woman to rape on the bus.

No, but you will encounter in Limerick, men luring a young girl from a shopping centre only a few weeks back to rape her in the back of a van in broad daylight.

India is not a safe place for women so I'm not sure why you want to portray it as being as safe as any other country. That in my opinion is misguided and naive.

Because it actually IS only as "safe" as any other country. When an Irish girl was raped in Japan, did you hear anybody say "Oh Japan is a shìthole, particularly unsafe for women"? No. I didn't either.

When a foreign student is raped in Ireland did you hear anyone say "Oh, Ireland is a shìthole, particularly unsafe for women". No. I didn't either.

So to try and say a country of a billion people (and try and blame religion and the castes system all you want) are representative of the actions of a very small minority...

THAT'S unhelpful and narrow minded naivety at it's finest, and is a fine example of what I said at the start of this thread the kind of righteous people who look for problems on the other side of the world to get morally indignant about, while ignoring the problems on their own doorstep.

[Deleted User]

mangochavez wrote: »

But is saying "please don't rape" to a potential rapist really going to be in any way effective in preventing rape?

You twisted my argument to an absurd level, exemplifying what kind of a discussion you wish to have; certainly not an open minded one in any sense.

Obviously you think you have a level of understanding and existential detachment that everyone else is lacking, so I'll keep it as simple as I can for everyone who lacks your intellectual capacity.

We can tackle rape in a number of ways. Primary among them are two approaches.

1. We can make rape so unacceptable, and so heavily punished, that in the cost/benefit analysis of the moment of impulse, the would-be rapist has so much to lose and is so likely to pay a heavy cost that they decide against the crime. We can also make it very clear what rape is e.g. if a woman is so unconscious that she can't say no that does not equal a yes, that being too frozen with fear to make a sound doesn't equal enthusiastic consent, and that any ambivalence at all should be a signal to stop.

2. We can make women so wary of men, so afraid of the tiny chance of falling victim to a rapist, that they live lives that are punctuated by precaution and fear. Just in case. We can advise them to never be alone with less than two adults, to cover themselves modestly, to never venture out alone after dark, and to never drink more than one drink. Then, if they do fall victim to a crime we can wag our fingers and tell them it would have been preventable if they had taken the right precautions. In other words, we can treat all men as potential rapists, and we can treat all women as victims in waiting.

Another way is this:

3. We could acknowledge, as in this new Indian case, that most rapists are known to the victim, that the vast majority of rapes take place within a scenario that is regarded as 'safe' - ie. with someone you know and trust - and put proper resources into educating people about the issues of consent, propriety, and punishment. And when a woman (or man) falls victim, we can assure them again and again that it is not their fault they were unlucky enough to have suffered the crime.

imtdub

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

As for personal experience I'm not sure what you mean by that. India is a sinkhole, with children scavaging rubbish heaps in order to stay alive, rivers teeming with excrement and incidents of rape of women and children are sky high. It's not a safe country particularly for women. Limerick and the rest of Ireland doesn't have gangs of rapists scouring their vicinity for women to rape. I'm not likely to encounter a bus driver here, travelling his route with his mates looking for a woman to rape on the bus.

India is not a safe place for women so I'm not sure why you want to portray it as being as safe as any other country. That in my opinion is misguided and naive.

Before mouthing off, did you take into consideration the size of India and it's population which is roughly twice the size of Whole Europe. Irish Govt is struggling to manage/Police paltry 4 mil with so many gangland shootings and parental abuse to Magdalene laundries. Yes off lately there has been a rise in crime in North India, which is a shame as India is such a diverse country with rich heritage/history (which is what people should be talking about but not crime), but when you consider we're talking about 1.2 billion people here, It does become hard to manage/police/provide security and essential services. Talking about poverty and crime I bet you theirs more in Europe than India, it's just that India doesn't have welfare system where people can sit on their arse all day and still can have a luxury life.

May be you didn't read about this bus rape in Scotland
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-22028357

So when Europe and Ireland can manage themselves perfectly than you can talk about India being a sinkhole.

Einhard

The facts are that,while rape and sexual abuse are prevalent in all countries, India has a particular problem with both. That's not to deny Ireland's issues, but rather a statement based on readily available figures. Women are commonly harassed on the streets, groped, and subjected to lewd gestures and comments. Familial abuse is a massive issue, and is rarely ever reported- not surprisingly, given that the police rarely bother to investigate, and that marital rape is only a civil offence. Even the most cursory of research will illustrate the dangers that women face in India in particular. To deny this is to deny the evidence, and it also puts women at risk- people shoudl be aware of the risks they take in travelling to any country, and to seek to obfuscate the facts in relation to India makes it more difficult to assess that risk. Whatever about a rape in Limerick a few years ago, or an attempted abduction in a shopping centre, women in India are at far greater risk than those in Ireland. To seek to deny that is grandstanding, and argument for the sake of argument.

Einhard

imtdub wrote: »

Talking about poverty and crime I bet you theirs more in Europe than India, it's just that India doesn't have welfare system where people can sit on their arse all day and still can have a luxury life.

India's not a sinkhole by any measure, but to seek to compare poverty in Europe and India is ludicrous in the extreme.

imtdub

Einhard wrote: »

India's not a sinkhole by any measure, but to seek to compare poverty in Europe and India is ludicrous in the extreme.

Just cut-off the dole/welfare payments and you'll see the true face of poverty and crime in Europe.

Einhard

imtdub wrote: »

Just cut-off the dole/welfare payments and you'll see the true face of poverty and crime in Europe.

Obviously poverty is linked to crime. However, there are many other factors too. India is a far more patriarchal society than Ireland. Women are often seen as second class citizens. Hence, a man can force his wife into sex in India and face no criminal sanction. India is a much more unequal society than Ireland. Hence, crimes against those from lower castes, or from lower status groups are not treated as seriously as they should. India is also a much more corrupt society than Ireland. Hence, reports that the police often bribe victims or their families to drop their cases.

Your analysis of the situation in India is entirely simplistic, and very naive. There is far more to it than mere poverty. That should be obvious to anyone who has a basic understanding of crime, let alone the as it pertains in India.

Besides that, you've conceded my point entirely- India is more dangerous for females than Ireland. It's not unreasonable then, to suggest that people might want to take that simple fact into account when making their travel plans.