Taoiseach Enda Kenny has said “no new rights” will be put in place when the Government legislates for limited abortion. Speaking in Dundalk, Mr Kenny said the clarification that would be introduced would not change the law and would confirm existing rights ensuring that the lives of the mother and the unborn were given the equal status they had under the Constitution. “The law is not being changed on abortion. The law is being codified and the law when clarified will deal strictly with the Constitution...will deal with the X case and will do so without bringing any new rights here,” he said. “No woman in Ireland is entitled to by choice have an abortion unless there is a real and substantial risk to her life as distinct from her health...the law is not being changed. No new rights are being inserted here.” Mr Kenny described drafts of legislation as “meaningless”, when asked if Minister for Health James Reilly had misled people about the content of the proposed law. “In the preparation of any piece of legislation there are numerous drafts that are always prepared...all of these are meaningless until the Heads of the Bill are actually presented to Government by the sponsoring Minister and approved by Cabinet,” he said. He also ruled out a new referendum. “I do not propose to have another referendum.”
wolfpawnat wrote: » And again, I have to say, we need a proper referendum, list everything and let the country sort out this joke.
Morag wrote: » Unfortunately fatal fetal abnormalities and inevitable miscarriages like rape/incest can't be legislated for until the 8th amendment is repealed, they are just not under the remit of the X Case Ruling.
Morag wrote: » So in such cases you think women should have the right to an abortion? They are only legislating for the X Case (risk to life due to self-destruction) and the ABC(right to a speedy process to see if you can have a legal abortion) rulings cos the EU Court of Human Rights is forcing them to do so. Same as it forced us to decriminalize homosexuality and bring in equal pay legislation.
wolfpawnat wrote: » And as even a pro-life person, I find this sick. Carrying a rapists child, and even more sick, if that rapist is a member of your own family, is wrong.
wolfpawnat wrote: » I feel this X case legislation is all upside down, they are arguing stupid things and ignoring the things that are beyond important. Children resulting from incest are more likely to have certain congenital birth defects. The child may have no quality of life, which is as important in all this as the mothers welfare!
LittleBook wrote: » I hoped so but there's a huge difference between lying to a clinic if you're in a desperate situation and falsely accusing someone of rape to get an abortion.
Morag wrote: » The X Case legislation will not include rape victims or incest victims for that to be legislated for the 8th amendment will have to be repealed.
username123 wrote: » I think the point is, restrictive measures such as our government would like to implement leave open the possibility of abuse through desperation. I mean, thats a given right?
wolfpawnat wrote: » This is what I have been trying (and failing spectacularly) to say
wolfpawnat wrote: » This may seem callous, but how do you prove it was rape, you could have girls would again do not want to be pregnant declaring rape, Gardaí called and innocent young men accused of horrific crimes
wolfpawnat wrote: » I just worry for the men who could get horrendous convictions for no reason because some (and I mean a minuscule minority) of women are desperate or callous enough to accuse them of rape to get an abortion. As the mother of a boy, I would worry about it when he gets older
eviltwin wrote: » Implying that women would lie about rape and actually blame someone just to get an abortion is insulting and offensive and harks back to that old image - that I had hoped was gone - that a woman who has an abortion is someone with no morals who can't be trusted. I've had two crisis pregnancies myself, one abortion, it would never have crossed my mind to lie about the circumstances let alone call an innocent man a rapist.
wolfpawnat wrote: » Slightly OT and my apologies for this, but I have a question, I have heard some pro-choice women declaring that if abortion, under the X case guidelines or in general, was to be permitted in Ireland, that they expect it to be free. Now surely not everyone believes this? The pill before 9 weeks is £400 sterling in Belfast and procedures increase in cost from there. It would severely eat into any health budget if it were to be free. Surely women would have to pay for it here too?
username123 wrote: » I think the point is, restrictive measures such as our government would like to implement leave open the possibility of abuse through desperation. I mean, thats a given right? Its not about morality, its just about the lengths that desperate people may have to go to. Its quite likely whatever the government comes up with will be so restrictive that travel is the better option - if you can afford it. Being honest about it, if I couldnt afford to travel and the only way to get an abortion was to say I was suicidal - Id see it as ticking a box to get what I wanted and no reflection of my personal morality.It would certainly be a better option for me than having a child I didnt want.
wolfpawnat wrote: » No, laws should NEVER passed based on minuscule minorities, which is why even as someone who does not agree with abortion, I feel there needs to be the option for women to have it. I have been in the seat when it comes to crisis pregnancies twice, you don't think straight. I can see why some women, if they thought there was an option to get abortion, could choose that route. But again, as I said, they should not have to feel they need to do that, the option should be there for them regardless, even if I don't agree with it.
eviltwin wrote: » Yes it is but, just like anything that is open to abuse, its usually only a small minority that do it. We don't ban things because a tiny amount try and mess with the system.
eviltwin wrote: » Yes it is but, just like anything that is open to abuse, its usually only a small minority that do it. We don't ban things because a tiny amount try and mess with the system. You're now saying a woman who would want an abortion would a) lie and say she has been raped and b) implicate an innocent man in order to get an abortion. So basically it reads like you are saying women who seek out abortion because they don't want a baby are so immoral they would think nothing of the above to get their way. I find that really offensive tbh.
lazygal wrote: » Do people not know the MAP doesn't always work, regardless of whether its taken after a 'legitimate' rape? :rolleyes:
wolfpawnat wrote: » No, all I am saying is it is open to abuse. I myself do not like the idea of abortion, but I don't see how my personal opinion should affect other women. I just worry for the men who could get horrendous convictions for no reason because some (and I mean a minuscule minority) of women are desperate or callous enough to accuse them of rape to get an abortion. As the mother of a boy, I would worry about it when he gets older. I would be the first to be held for his murder if he ever did such a horrific thing to any girl, but I would worry he could be accused of it if a girl felt it was going to be the only way she could get an abortion.
eviltwin wrote: » Here we go again, always thinking the worst of a woman just because she wants an abortion.
wolfpawnat wrote: » From what I have seen, they are not free, but are subsidized. I dare say they try not to deal with many of them as it would cost them more, and refer you instead to a private clinic to save them money, and like here, you could only imagine the waiting times. The baby would be born and graduating college before you'd see a consultant!!!!
wolfpawnat wrote: » This may seem callous, but how do you prove it was rape, you could have girls would again do not want to be pregnant declaring rape, Gardaí called and innocent young men accused of horrific crimes, also these days, with the over the counter access to the MAP rape case pregnancies I would assume (and I have not researched this I might add) would be less. That said, I would never deny a woman who has been put through so much already from a rape the right to do anything she needs to to try and get her life back on track!
pwurple wrote: » To be fair to them, FF didn't have the cahones either. The last referendum on this was 2002! It's a political hot potato.
lazygal wrote: » FF have started to repeat that its a 'prolife' party and I have sneaky suspicion that they smell some political capital to be made out of pandering to the conservative voters who don't think any abortion legislation is acceptable.
username123 wrote: » Im asking about the NHS - not private clinics such as Marie Stopes - forgive me if you meant the NHS.
NHS abortions If you want to have an abortion through the NHS, you may find it beneficial to discuss your options with a healthcare professional. You will usually need to be referred to a specialist service that deals with abortion. If you do not want to ask your GP to refer you for an abortion, you can go to your local family planning clinic or genito-urinary medicine (GUM) clinic. Use the post code search facility to find your nearest sexual health clinic. Some doctors at these clinics can refer women for an NHS abortion, but if they cannot, they must refer you to another doctor. The law states that a doctor can decline to certify a woman for an abortion if they have a moral objection to abortion. If this is the case, they must recommend another doctor who is willing to help. Before an abortion can proceed, two doctors must ensure that the requirements of the Abortion Act are fulfilled, and they must both sign the relevant certificate. Usually, one of the doctors will be your GP and the other doctor will work at the hospital or clinic where the abortion will take place. However, this is not always the case. In some areas, you may also be able to refer yourself to your local Pregnancy Advisory Service, without first getting a referral from a local doctor. However, it does help to talk to other healthcare professionals, such as your GP or contraception clinic nurse, as well. You can self-refer for an NHS-funded abortion by contacting: the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS) on 08457 30 40 30 – or email them at info@bpas.org Marie Stopes International on 0845 300 8090 (open 24 hours) – or email them at services@mariestopes.org.uk Funding of NHS abortion services differs in various parts of the country. The level of NHS provision ranges from more than 90% of local demand to less than 60%. In some areas, the NHS will pay for abortions at private clinics, but in other areas you may need to pay to have an abortion at a private clinic. Private abortions You can contact a private abortion clinic without being referred by a doctor. However, the NHS may not pay for this, and the agreement of two doctors is still required. The clinic will make the arrangements. Costs for abortions in private clinics vary and will depend on: the organisation or company that carries out the abortion the stage of pregnancy (earlier abortions are usually less expensive) whether an overnight stay is needed the method of abortion used If you are considering having an abortion, it is important to talk to somebody about it as soon as possible
wolfpawnat wrote: » No, it costs, alot! Also in England you have to say whether it is for physical or other reasons why you are having it. The doctors don't question, but when you are filling the form, you are asked which it is. There is no such option on the page as, "don't want it".
username123 wrote: » Thanks Scarinae - thats the kind of thing I was wondering. I just cant see it working in this country, can you imagine our already 3rd world health service handling abortions in an efficient manner? More like a 2 year waiting list - just to see a consultant. On a side note, whatever about a cost for abortion, contraception should be free or far more accessible. I am personally unable to afford long term contraception (a coil) because the initial outlay is so high (yes, its cheaper over time but what if it didnt agree and had to be removed?).
lazygal wrote: » I can't imagine forcing a suicidal woman to stump up the money or be billed for it afterwards if an abortion is approved to save her life would be appropriate.
eviltwin wrote: » I was a bit torn by the cost issue tbh, I suppose because the only available option to most women ie the UK costs money it doesn't seem unreasonable they should have to pay here but when I think about it - why should they? All pregnancy care is free here if you go public so why not abortion? I would assume that going public for an abortion if it ever became legal would be the same. I'm sure private clinics would open up and there would be a charge and that's fine but why should it be a case of only being able to access abortion if you can afford it? That's going to do nothing for the women whose reasons for taking matters into their own hands are down to money. Certainly those who are having abortions as a result of rape and health reasons should not be expected to pay anything for that service.
username123 wrote: » Yes it is, Im just asking if its free in the UK without any kind of extenuating circumstances to muddy the water. Simply - I dont want to be pregnant - no reason given.
