Frito wrote: » I wonder if the 'panel of medics' condition re suicidality is a way for FG to legislate for abortion whilst maintaining the status quo of women travelling abroad for the procedure. A bit like certain US states (Kansas?) where restriction after restriction is placed to make abortion inaccessible.
Draft General Scheme of the Protection of Maternal Life Bill 2013 Risk of loss of life from self-destruction Provide that 1. A person shall not be guilty of an offense under….when a medical procedure referred to in… is carried out by a register medical practitioner at an appropriate location at which mental health services are also provided and in relation to such mental health services at least one of the psychiatrists referred in this head is employed. one obstetrician and two psychiatrists have jointly certified that in their reasonable opinion there is a real and substantial risk of loss of the pregnant woman’s life from self-destruction and this risk can only be averted by medical procedure in the course of which or as a result of which unborn human life is destroyed. one obstetrician and two psychiatrists have revived the opinion referred to… and certified that they are of the same opinion. 2 At least one of the psychiatrists refereed to in… shall be a perinatal psychiatrist.
sam34 wrote: » Off topic but I have to correct this. Two psychiatrists cannot "get you locked away for life". It is not possible legally for two psychiatrists, or indeed any number of psychiatrists, to lock someone up for life. Sorry for going offtopic but I hate this kind of misinformation being spread about psychiatry, as I think it deters people from seeking help.
Morag wrote: » I wonder if you know and if you could share with us what happens if someone says they are suicidal and then it's found that they don't meet the critea? Is it true they can be held for observation to find out what the 'real' issue is?
THE Master of the National Maternity Hospital in Holles Street, Dr Rhona Mahony, has said that in cases where pregnant women are genuinely suicidal, they should be assessed by two psychiatrists backed up by a review panel. However, she described the idea that they should be seen by a succession of doctors as unworkable and "not humane". She was speaking after she gave a talk for Women on Air at the Radisson Blu in Dublin's city centre last night. Dr Mahony said that she believed that it would be "very reasonable" for a woman who has expressed suicidal ideation to be assessed by two psychiatrists. "They would be looking at her complete care pathway, not simply the issue of termination," she said. "I think a woman's views should be respected and the woman's situation should be respected." In order to safeguard the care pathway, a review panel – who would not meet with the woman unless she requested it – would consider the psychiatrist's recommendation and could then come to a "reasonable decision". "She must not be made see doctor after doctor after doctor. That is not humane, it is not sensible or workable," she said.
fits wrote: » The back benchers of course. Who seem to have forgotten that they've been given a mandate in three referendums to legislate for this. As legislators, they need to do their job.
LittleBook wrote: » But I think a lot of people will find it hard to forgive them for this fiasco and their general incompetency in the area of health ... to the point where they'll switch back to Fianna Fail? Maybe.
LittleBook wrote: » Fine Gael haven't the cahones for this.
meeeeh wrote: » At six months abortion is not a minor procedure. I'm pro choice but allowing abortions when the fetus could be viable without proper consultation or limitations is crazy.
gcgirl wrote: » Really only fatal fetal abnormalitis are picked up in 2 trimester as most terminations are done in first trimester
Call me Al wrote: » well considering many women don't have access to scans until well past the 25 week mark it makes it kind of difficult to assess for fetal abnormalities of any severity until well past what could be a cut off mark.
eviltwin wrote: » Some are only getting scans now at the 12 week stage, the anomoly scan that was the norm when I had my eldest seems to be happening less and less. I wonder sometimes if that is a deliberate ploy to cut down on the cases where a woman might want to have an abortion if something presents itself - or am I just being paranoid?
lazygal wrote: » I think it might be. I posted on another thread about a mums group I'm in. There's mums going to CUMH for antenatal care and they aren't getting ANY scans, no dating or anomaly scans are offered. One put her foot down and was very begrudgingly given one. They've been told they'll be scanned at 34 weeks to check fluid levels and for general checks. Some reported some comments from midwives about women who wanted to 'do something about' an abnormality and looking for their notes. I also know women who were totally dismissed when asking about nuchal fold and other standard tests. One has a child with Downs syndrome and wanted the tests done. Her midwife asked her why she'd get it done, would she want to go ahead with the pregnancy and other intrusive questions that clearly made value judgments of the women. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Ireland's maternity services are not world class, they are as hit and miss as many other parts of the health service and its often the luck of the draw if you're going public as to what options are presented to you.
Sulla Felix wrote: » First, I'm an advocate of pretty a pretty liberal abortion regime. Set a guideline date (end of second trimester give or take I feel) and anyone should be able to walk into a clinic and have an abortion. No more questioning than you'd get if you went in for any other minor surgery. But, just to add a little balance, I do understand why some of the anti-abortion crowd are so vehement. I don't agree with the perspective, but theirs is that the fetus is actually a baby. So it's no wonder they get upset. It's an emotive subject but I try to keep that in mind when talking to those people.
wolfpawnat wrote: » Slightly OT and my apologies for this, but I have a question, I have heard some pro-choice women declaring that if abortion, under the X case guidelines or in general, was to be permitted in Ireland, that they expect it to be free. Now surely not everyone believes this? The pill before 9 weeks is £400 sterling in Belfast and procedures increase in cost from there. It would severely eat into any health budget if it were to be free. Surely women would have to pay for it here too?
username123 wrote: » Is elective abortion free on the NHS in the UK? By elective I mean not due to rape or health reasons.
lazygal wrote: » It's still an elective procedure if the woman chooses it though. Not every woman facing pregnancy as a result of rape or health issues opts for abortion and its not an automatic procedure. Side issue I know but i'd imagine the vast, vast majority of abortions are carried out because the woman wants it.
Ilyana 2.0 wrote: » That's true, although it's hard to know where you'll be living year on year too. But the fact is that most young people are registered in their home towns and I'm sure the government is aware of that. Yet this fact didn't stop it holding the 2011 referendum on a Thursday, iirc.
username123 wrote: » Yes it is, Im just asking if its free in the UK without any kind of extenuating circumstances to muddy the water. Simply - I dont want to be pregnant - no reason given.
lazygal wrote: » I can't imagine forcing a suicidal woman to stump up the money or be billed for it afterwards if an abortion is approved to save her life would be appropriate.
eviltwin wrote: » I was a bit torn by the cost issue tbh, I suppose because the only available option to most women ie the UK costs money it doesn't seem unreasonable they should have to pay here but when I think about it - why should they? All pregnancy care is free here if you go public so why not abortion? I would assume that going public for an abortion if it ever became legal would be the same. I'm sure private clinics would open up and there would be a charge and that's fine but why should it be a case of only being able to access abortion if you can afford it? That's going to do nothing for the women whose reasons for taking matters into their own hands are down to money. Certainly those who are having abortions as a result of rape and health reasons should not be expected to pay anything for that service.
username123 wrote: » Thanks Scarinae - thats the kind of thing I was wondering. I just cant see it working in this country, can you imagine our already 3rd world health service handling abortions in an efficient manner? More like a 2 year waiting list - just to see a consultant. On a side note, whatever about a cost for abortion, contraception should be free or far more accessible. I am personally unable to afford long term contraception (a coil) because the initial outlay is so high (yes, its cheaper over time but what if it didnt agree and had to be removed?).
wolfpawnat wrote: » No, it costs, alot! Also in England you have to say whether it is for physical or other reasons why you are having it. The doctors don't question, but when you are filling the form, you are asked which it is. There is no such option on the page as, "don't want it".
username123 wrote: » Im asking about the NHS - not private clinics such as Marie Stopes - forgive me if you meant the NHS.
NHS abortions If you want to have an abortion through the NHS, you may find it beneficial to discuss your options with a healthcare professional. You will usually need to be referred to a specialist service that deals with abortion. If you do not want to ask your GP to refer you for an abortion, you can go to your local family planning clinic or genito-urinary medicine (GUM) clinic. Use the post code search facility to find your nearest sexual health clinic. Some doctors at these clinics can refer women for an NHS abortion, but if they cannot, they must refer you to another doctor. The law states that a doctor can decline to certify a woman for an abortion if they have a moral objection to abortion. If this is the case, they must recommend another doctor who is willing to help. Before an abortion can proceed, two doctors must ensure that the requirements of the Abortion Act are fulfilled, and they must both sign the relevant certificate. Usually, one of the doctors will be your GP and the other doctor will work at the hospital or clinic where the abortion will take place. However, this is not always the case. In some areas, you may also be able to refer yourself to your local Pregnancy Advisory Service, without first getting a referral from a local doctor. However, it does help to talk to other healthcare professionals, such as your GP or contraception clinic nurse, as well. You can self-refer for an NHS-funded abortion by contacting: the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS) on 08457 30 40 30 – or email them at info@bpas.org Marie Stopes International on 0845 300 8090 (open 24 hours) – or email them at services@mariestopes.org.uk Funding of NHS abortion services differs in various parts of the country. The level of NHS provision ranges from more than 90% of local demand to less than 60%. In some areas, the NHS will pay for abortions at private clinics, but in other areas you may need to pay to have an abortion at a private clinic. Private abortions You can contact a private abortion clinic without being referred by a doctor. However, the NHS may not pay for this, and the agreement of two doctors is still required. The clinic will make the arrangements. Costs for abortions in private clinics vary and will depend on: the organisation or company that carries out the abortion the stage of pregnancy (earlier abortions are usually less expensive) whether an overnight stay is needed the method of abortion used If you are considering having an abortion, it is important to talk to somebody about it as soon as possible
pwurple wrote: » To be fair to them, FF didn't have the cahones either. The last referendum on this was 2002! It's a political hot potato.
lazygal wrote: » FF have started to repeat that its a 'prolife' party and I have sneaky suspicion that they smell some political capital to be made out of pandering to the conservative voters who don't think any abortion legislation is acceptable.
