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Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

lazygal

I don't know where to post. Its a bit of a ranting and raving post but I can't put it there. I feel so, so, so belittled as a woman by the suggestion that a woman seeking abortion on grounds of suicide would face some sort of tribunal of inquiry. The fact it was even bandied about as a proposal at all annoys me. I'm pregnant right now and I feel like my husband and daughter will be put in a position where they might have to face life without me, because even if my health is in serious danger right now, unless I might die I won't receive treatment.

I know this is a rambling, incoherent mess of a post but I'm just so angry and upset and insulted by the current bandying about of the difficulties the state wants women to face in the abortion debate.

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Morgase

Same here. If I hear "real and substantial risk to the life of the mother" once more, I might just explode.

And as for suicide not being a "proper risk" it shows what this country's attitudes towards mental health really are.

Tigger99

What I find frightening is the entire focus in the media on the suicide angle, does the legislation even deal with other risks to the mother, for example a septic miscarriage?

Faith

I feel constantly frustrated by the whole debate. Constantly. Why some people feel it's their god-given right to dictate what others do with their body will forever remain a mystery to me.

username123

Im so angry about it that I find myself switching the tv over if there is anything mentioned, not posting on any forum with any kind of opinion, not reading any news reports and deflecting any kind of conversation about it.

It makes me feel very sad about the society in which I live. I can understand how people get bitter and angry as they get older.

I have been getting angrier and angrier at Irish society for a number of years, not just about the abortion issue. I dont know how much longer I can stay in a place like this.

rainbow kirby

I'm unbelievably angry at it all, and to be perfectly honest the idea of becoming pregnant while living in this country scares me. The sheer contempt for women on display here is unreal. 6 doctors to evaluate if an abortion is appropriate in mental health cases? That's absolutely disgraceful, and will probably just force women in these cases to travel or make their mental health issues worse!

The 8th amendment is really where the problem lies - it creates a grey area between a "risk to health" and a "risk to life" which is completely unjustified. Doctors' hands are tied by it and the opinions of women are completely disregarded. It needs to go and proper legislation, not the crap that Fine Gael are proposing, needs to be put in place as a result.

lilmissprincess

What I really don't get is that we supposedly have a government which is all for giving equal rights to women.

You know, unless we want to decide on what to do. Clearly women have no good sense when it comes to decision making and have to be told what to do by more than one other person, just in case they make a mistake.

Change needs to happen, and fast.

How Strange

I just can't comprehend why some people and some organisations believe they have the right to dictate for all women.

I can't get my head around it and I can't watch the debates etc anymore. They sicken me to my core with their self righteous crap. Fair enough if that's that you personally believe but don't make me live in a society dictated by those views.

That whole Sunita situation scared the living daylights out of me because I was a couple of weeks behind her in pregnancy. The inquest did nothing to allay my fears as now I see that in the Irish medical system a pregnant woman must be at real risk of death before her life is put before the life of a foetus or baby. We aren't even equal. We are lessor than a foetus or a baby that has no/negligible chance of life outside the womb. That's how much we're valued and how much our lives are worth under the Irish medical system and Irish law. And that is not even taking into account the obvious deficiencies in the medical system which allows for such huge errors, la k of communication stc between different staff so that blood tests aren't followed up on, results aren't shared etc.

For me this is something which affects every woman. It's every woman who could get pregnant now or in the future. And our lives are in the hands of medical professionals who are detached from the humanity of a situation and shelter behind laws which are vague and inhumane in the extreme.

meeeeh

I like living here but I find abortion debate here ridiculous and out of the stone age tbh. I don't feel insulted or particularly victimized as a woman. I just think that pro life crowd are idiots and the whole discussion is completely pointless. Either allow full abortion or don't but this arguing about how many people should be in the panel is stupid.

Btw I had no problems with miscarriages but in my experience it can take 5 days before procedure was done, so I do think that current abortion spat masks some other problems in healthcare. Just to make clear the two d&Cs that I had when miscarrying were done straight away but the one after some of the placenta was left in womb took five days. In case some might think that abortion legalislation will solve everything.

How Strange

Fine Gael don't have the stomach for making the necessary changes. They are conservative to their core. Labour do have the belly for it but whether they can push through the necessary measures remains to be seen.

So if the suicide proposal as FG want it gets through we'll have a situation where women who are suicidal and pregnant are interrogated by 6 medical professionals. Why on earth would any woman put herself through that inhumane ordeal.

Jesus, we really are an immature nation if we can't even see that life is rarely back and white. Not every eoman wants to be pregnant. Not every wlman chose to be pregnant. No, we're a nation of squinted windows who'd rather export our dirty secrets to the UK. Let them clean up our mess and we'll go on pretending that everything is grand.

Btw I'm so so glad this will be my last pregnancy and I'll be encouraging my husband to get the snip do that there are no accidents. If I have a daughter I'll just worry for her and hope that by the time she's at the stage where pregnancy is a possibility that Ireland has grown a spine and put in place adequate legislation to protect her life.

pwurple

Have I gotten the wrong end of the stick or something? I thought the reports were that there wouldn't be a tribunal or panel for women to face.

How Strange

pwurple at present the proposal is a panel of SIX medical professionals. Labour are saying this won't be the case, FG are saying the proposal stands.

krudler

Faith wrote: »

I feel constantly frustrated by the whole debate. Constantly. Why some people feel it's their god-given right to dictate what others do with their body will forever remain a mystery to me.

Especially those who are well beyond child bearing years themselves, and have zero concern for children once they're actually born. You can have an opinion on it sure, but to actively campaign for something that affects you in not one way whatsoever to restrict other people's decisions is absolutely baffling.

FoxT

I believe the 'SIX' medical professional proposal is posturing/setting up a negotiating position by FG, who apparently have a strong anti-abortion rump in their expanded parliamentary party. There was an article in the Irish times to this effect yesterday which I cannot now find online.

It is of course, a ridiculous proposal.

Note though, that even if the X case had been legislated for, I believe the Savita outcome would, unfortunately, have been the same. The medics would have had to wait until the life, as opposed to the health, of the mother was at risk before terminating the pregnancy.
The tragic thing is - it was known within a short time after her admission that the pregnancy was not viable - ie it had NO chance of a live birth.

Nevertheless, they would still have had to wait until the mother's LIFE was in danger, before they could terminate an unviable pregnancy.

FG in particular, is going to get tangled up on X-case legislation, and at the end of the day whatever comes out of it will be unsatisfactory.

As long as the prolifers keep their heels dug in, 2 things will happen:
- the rate of abortions by irish mothers will continue in the UK as before
- and, from time to time , (once every ten or twenty years, say) , some unfortunate woman is going to die whilst tangled up in the system, Savita-style.

People who are truly pro-life should consider their position carefully. As things stand in this country today, the anti-abortion lobby is too blinkered & reactionary to be considered 'pro-life' in any rational sense.

fits

Keep emailing your tds and remind them that their electorate want workable laws. Personally, I want to see Ireland in line with the rest of Europe on abortion laws. Current situation is ludicrous.

kylith

From what I'm hearing women won't have to see 6 consultants, they'll see 3 and those 3 will confer with another 3.

CP my own post from A&A:

It makes me very angry that if I were to find myself in a crisis pregnancy I'd have to jump through so many hoops to prove that I was 'serious' about not wanting to be pregnant. Why isn't 'I don't want to be pregnant' enough of a reason?

Between not being trusted to make my own decisions about what's best for me, and being aware that if I were to become ill while pregnant my health would not be the primary concern, this issue is really starting to worry me. What kind of country would tell anyone 'I'm sorry, we have to wait until you're at a definite risk of dying before we can help you'? It's ****ing barbaric!

I find myself wishing that I could infect TDs with something and refuse to give them treatment until there was a clear and definite risk to their lives.

How Strange

I personally hate them being called 'pro-life'. I'm pro-life but it's pro-life for everyone including the mothers life. They should be called anti-choice. That's a more accurate description of their agenda.

lazygal

http://m.rte.ie/news/touch/2013/0424/385417-psychiatrists-will-not-take-part-in-abortion-panel/

Could this throw a spanner in the works? Or will psychiatrists with their own agendas take up the work?

Tigger99

Thats the most pro-women thing ive read in this entire debate. It gives me some hope. It's so compassionate.

How Strange

Apparently there are only 3 perinatal psychiatrists in the country. I heard him speaking on morning ireland yesterday abd he was beyond scathing of the proposal. So a woman would most likely have to go before a panel of obs, gyns, other psychiatrists who have their own personal agendas in terms of religious beliefs and convince them that she is in fact suicidal.

How can a woman convince someone that she is suicidal if her word alone isn't enough? Does she actually have to commit suicide? In that case an attempt may not even be enough.

Ludicrous and frightening in the extreme.

OldNotWIse

Morgase wrote: »

Same here. If I hear "real and substantial risk to the life of the mother" once more, I might just explode.

And as for suicide not being a "proper risk" it shows what this country's attitudes towards mental health really are.

It's actually real, substantial and probable. Everybpody gets that wrong.

lazygal

Your health, on the other hand, isn't a factor.

Morgase

lazygal wrote: »

http://m.rte.ie/news/touch/2013/0424/385417-psychiatrists-will-not-take-part-in-abortion-panel/

Could this throw a spanner in the works? Or will psychiatrists with their own agendas take up the work?

Fair play to them.

Here's the full text from the article:

Irish psychiatrists have said they will not participate in any compulsory assessment of pregnant women who have suicidal ideation and are seeking an abortion.

The College of Psychiatry in Ireland said today its members will not be the country's "social police".

The president of the representative body for psychiatrists said that forcing vulnerable women to undergo mandatory psychiatric assessments of up to 12 people was abusive.

Speaking to RTÉ News, Dr Anthony McCarthy said compelling psychiatrists to take part in such a system was abusing their profession, which is supposed to offer comfort, compassion and support to people in vulnerable situations.

Dr McCarthy said the Government has to deal with the abortion issue and legislate adequately for it, and should not pass the social control of a situation onto psychiatrists.

He said it was the position of the college that they would not take part in such panels of forced assessments.

Dr McCarthy said psychiatrists would be happy to continue to provide second opinions, as is normal professional practice, but would not "collude" in any process of formalised compulsory assessment panels.

Psychiatrists would not act as judges, tasked with assessing whether a woman was feeling suicidal, he said.

He said asking psychiatrists to test the truth of women's stories was extremely abusive.

Morgase

OldNotWIse wrote: »

It's actually real, substantial and probable. Everybpody gets that wrong.

Ok, thanks

What annoys me about it is that whoever came up with that was clearly somebody who doesn't understand the first thing about biology. It's impossible to define when you go from a risk to health to a risk to life. It's just unworkable.

OldNotWIse

kylith wrote: »

. Why isn't 'I don't want to be pregnant' enough of a reason?

QUOTE]
Because the 8th ammendment specifically protects the right to life of the unborn child.

OldNotWIse

Morgase wrote: »

Ok, thanks

What annoys me about it is that whoever came up with that was clearly somebody who doesn't understand the first thing about biology. It's impossible to define when you go from a risk to health to a risk to life. It's just unworkable.

I agree. Whatever about whether you believe or not that suicide should be a ground, I think its ridic that anyone thinks we should try to quantify or qualify a suicidal claim.

How many people die by suicide every year and what do their relatives usually say? We didn't see it coming. That's whats so tragic about suicide, its preventable if someone seeks help, but the nature of it means that people might not seek that help! They are asking someone to be objective and level-headed (and, from the looks of things, perform) for a panel, when they are in a state where such capabilities are diminished anyway.

kylith

A rally to demand legislation before the government's summer holidays will be held at City Hall, Dame St, Dublin on Monday the 29th at 6pm.

https://www.facebook.com/events/485088144878394/

kylith

OldNotWIse wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

. Why isn't 'I don't want to be pregnant' enough of a reason?

QUOTE]
Because the 8th ammendment specifically protects the right to life of the unborn child.

Can you protect a life that they don't have? Since the jury is still on on exactly when you can consider a foetus alive.

meeeeh

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I agree. Whatever about whether you believe or not that suicide should eb a ground, I think its ridic that anyone who try to quantify or qualify a suicidal claim.

How many people die by suicide every year and what do their relatives usually say? We didn't see it coming. That's whats so tragic about suicide, its preventable if someone seeks help, but the nature of it means that people might not seek that help! They are asking someone to be objective and level-headed (and, from the looks of things, perform) for a panel, when they are in a state where such capabilities are diminished anyway.

There is an easy solution to this, just allow abortion to everyone who claims they are suicidal. No need to change constitution then either.

krudler

Youth Defence at it again: https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/28019_10151620657272363_2076976447_n.jpg

Tigger99

I'm not going to click on that youth defence link, but I dont think its helpful to give them free advertising by providing that link.