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Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Larbre34

An Coimisinéir Teanga is at it again, forcing an Irish language awareness programme on the Gardaí, a force so stretched and weary they have barely the time and resources to fulfil their role in English, never mind find the time to learn operational Irish.

All told, An Coimisinéir forces a huge amount of wasted expenditure on state bodies, in terms of signage, reports and publications, made available for a population where 95% of the functional language is English.

So, in this time of belt-tightening, is An Coimisinéir a luxury we can afford? Would the money be better spent encouraging the use and love of the first official language willingly and voluntarily, rather than forcibly?

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9959

opti0nal wrote: »

Irish speakers must accept the reality that Irish is not our common language and no law or constitutional right will change this fact.
.................

Steady now, at a cursory glance the above is tantamount to common sense, which isn't recommended on a thread such as this one, however on closer reading there's a obvious flaw in your logic: "Irish speakers must accept the reality..."
You must know by now, that to Irish speakers, reality is a foreign country populated by self-loathing, thick as planks, West Brit quislings, hell bent on communicating in the obscure language of the oppressor, despite the obvious benifits, cultural and economic, to be gleaned from speaking in 'our own' pure, poetic, and frankly gorgeous, mellifluous tongue.
Are you mad Ted?

An Coilean

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

An Coilean, you're making it sound as if the Gardai pulled him over, heard him speak a word of Irish and arrested him for that. That would be arresting him for speaking Irish.

No, I'm making it out to sound as it actually happened, a Man was stopped by a garda in relation to some unspecified traffic matter, choose to speak Irish and was arrested as a result. Weather it was after a few words or Irish or a whole recital of Peig is irrelevant.

However, it's obvious that's not what happened. He was pulled over. He was asked to communicate with the officer. The defender asked to do so through Irish and the officer would have made it clear that was not an option at the scene. This was the time at which the point was proven. You're right, there should be an option to speak Irish, but there obviously wasn't at this moment. At this stage, the point was proven and he could have lodged an official complaint.

Instead, he chose to continue speaking in a manner which disrupted the scene of the crime (speeding if I remember correctly), deliberately being obstructive to the continuation of the ticket giving. At this stage, he could have continued in English, asking for the officer's details to lodge the complaint about his inability to speak Irish, but taking his punishment and letting the whole thing end right there. Instead, he tried to push on, causing problems for the officers and refusing to co-operate with them. It's this that he was arrested for.

Irish was the method he chose to be obstructive. It could have been Klingon, Chinese or utter nonsense rambling. The tool he used was not relevant at this stage of the conflict. It was the fact he was being obtrusive that caused the problems, not how he was being obtrusive.

And the onus is on the guy who broke the law to co-operate with the officers in order to not waste further time on them having to deal with him. You're trying to defend someone who broke the law and then decided to be deliberately awkward with the officers as well.

The onus is on the man to co-operate with the Garda, no question about that, but it is his choice weather he wants to co-operate through English or through Irish, the onus is on the Gardaí to facilitate that choice.

The Garda may well have thought the guy was being obstructive and felt arresting the guy was the right thing to do, but clearly the Garda got it wrong and this whole incident represents a failure on the part of the Garda Síochána when it comes to being able to facilitate the use of Irish by the people.

Speaking Irish is not a privilege that can be thrown by the wayside when it doesn't suit, it is a right and the onus was on the Garda in question, and the Garda Síochána in general to facilitate its use.
If time was wasted it was the fault of the Gardaí for failing to have the necessary procedures in place to deal effectively with Irish citizens choosing to use the first language of the state.

Coles

Wibbs wrote: »

You really don't plug into the objective debate thang, do you? It's not an "attitiude(sic) problem".

I'm seeing quite a lot of insecurity here, but there are no winners when we're pointing out typos. But, anyway...

Secondly it's an tonal language. Pronunciation is everything, get it slightly wrong and the meaning can change hugely. In French, English and Spanish you can have a dodgy accent but the speakers of the language can still understand each other. A German speaking heavily accent english can be understood by a Mexican speaking heavily accent english. With a tonal language like Mandarin and others that ain't gonna happen. It's too complex and rigid over time. Many boast that Chinese folks can read and understand 500 year old texts. TO me that's a major tick against the language.

Hardly interesting as that was my experience growing up and that of my parents, grandparents and great grandparents and beyond. Oh and going back as I have, some of my ancestors spoke French, Spanish and even Basque. As for "Selective Ancestry", the male part of my gene map shows me to be of a line that goes right back to the first mesolithic modern humans known on this land near 11,000 years ago. Given the stats on that, I can say with some confidence that I'm likely more "Irish" than you are, yet I have little more than the cupla focal? And as for being thick for not learning it? Oh I'm more than happy to admit to being thick. Hell I demonstrate it on a near daily basis, but I suspect I've lost more knowledge of Irish history after a bad hangover than you have learned in a decade. I could well be wrong, I often am, but so far going on the evidence in black and white pixels in this thread I might just have the edge.

Hmmm... insecurity screaming out here. But with all the words you haven't contributed much of interest. Sorry, it is interesting. It's just not relevant to this discussion.

It's clear that you have Irish ancestry that spoke the Irish language. It's part of your culture. I'm glad we've cleared that up.

Wibbs wrote:

...the Brits made us insecure...

That's an interesting point, and certainly the impact of famine and emigration has had a deep impact on our culture and on the selection of ancestry that we choose to identify with, but I really think we need to step out of that shadow. It's too easy for people to make excuses.

Wibbs

Coles wrote: »

I'm seeing quite a lot of insecurity here, but there are no winners when we're pointing out typos. But, anyway...

Bless. Shouting "insecurity" on a regular basis is not an argument. You seem to believe it is, but it's really not.

It's clear that you have Irish ancestry that spoke the Irish language. It's part of your culture. I'm glad we've cleared that up.

Other languages were also part of my culture, as were many other cultural artifacts that no longer hold sway in my life today. It was in the past and the pretty deep past with it. It's no longer a large part of my culture and judging by the numbers of fluent speakers of the language it's not a large part of most Irish people's culture either. If it was we quite simply wouldn't be having this conversation, or if we were it would be in Irish. Cool if some Irish people feel it's a living part of their culture, but that doesn't translate to the rest of this nation and the presumption it does is well... presumptuous. Meh I've found that's par for the course with your more blinkered among the Gaelgoiri.

Coles

Wibbs wrote: »

Cool if some Irish people feel it's a living part of their culture, but that doesn't translate to the rest of this nation and the presumption it does is well... presumptuous. Meh I've found that's par for the course with your more blinkered among the Gaelgoiri.

The Irish language is quite obviously part of our living culture!

BTW, do you regard the Welsh language as a living part of Welsh culture? Or the Basque language (which I'm trying hard to learn at the moment)? Is it just your own Irish language that you see as 'dead'?

You have described in detail why you have made this choice (something about Irish being backward and stupid, IIRC), but interestingly you have also expressed regret that you didn't have the right attitude to learn the language when you had the chance. You still have that chance, don't you?

An important point that a lot of your type seems to miss is that 'Gaelgoirí' aren't attempting to impose anything on those of you that reject your own culture, merely that you respect those of us who treasure it. Why do you feel so threatened by it?

Wibbs

Coles wrote: »

The Irish language is quite obviously part of our living culture!

Part of some Irish people's culture.

BTW, do you regard the Welsh language as a living part of Welsh culture? Or the Basque language (which I'm trying hard to learn at the moment)? Is it just your own Irish language that you see as 'dead'?

For a start I have never ever said I consider Irish dead or anything like it. Quite the opposite in fact. Try not to put words in my mouth, there's a good chap.

You have described in detail why you have made this choice (something about Irish being backward and stupid, IIRC),

Partially about that, but as I explained earlier mostly because it had near zero practical and cultural relevance for me or my peers. Try not to put words in my mouth, there's a good chap.

but interestingly you have also expressed regret that you didn't have the right attitude to learn the language when you had the chance.

Again do try to not put words in my mouth, there's a good chap. I actually wrote "As I grew up I realised it was a worthwhile language and a real part of our heritage that needs preservation" . I also said I'd not mind "digging into Old Irish". Nothing about "attitude". Like your other go to word "insecure" it doesn't make for an argument.

You still have that chance, don't you?

I couldn't be bothered TBH. For a couple of reasons. As I also wrote I find "the rabid Gaelgoiri [are] a real block for me", but that wouldn't be the most of it. Much of it would be why would I try to learn a language foreign to me, in which I would always sound "foreign" to a native speaker, just like I would if I learned French, Spanish etc? Difference of course being I'm not French or Spanish. Why would I bother to learn a language I'd have little enough use for except with like minded hobbyists? Nothing wrong with that BTW, it just wouldn't be my thing. If for some reason I moved to a predominantly Irish speaking area of this land then yes I would learn it. It would be mannerly and practical to do so, but since I have no current intention in that direction...

An important point that a lot of your type seems to miss is that 'Gaelgoirí' aren't attempting to impose anything on those of you that reject your own culture, merely that you respect those of us who treasure it.

My type? Oh god.

Loaded oul sentence there. Reject our own culture? And yes you and your "type" are indeed attempting to impose a narrow version of the true Irishman or woman and have been since the foundation of this state. How's that working out for you? Indeed it could well be argued that along with bad teaching practices the Gaelgoirí have built enough obstacles in the way of the language's growth in the wider public's mind.

Why do you feel so threatened by it?

Try not to put words in my mouth, there's a good chap(sooner or later one hopes this will sink in, if only by rote). I'm certainly not threatened by the language. Why should I be? I am pissed off at the cultural BS that surrounds it. I am pissed off at the sheer waste of time and resources over a century that have contracted the language in that time.

Lord TSC

Coles wrote: »

The Irish language is quite obviously part of our living culture!

It's not part of my culture. It's part of my heritage, in the same way that living in stone huts during the famine is, the same way Joyce and Heaney is, in the same way O'Connell and the Irish battle against the British is. That's all part of what made Irish people the way we are today. And the Irish language, much like Irish dancing and the GAA, is also part of my heritage as well.

But it plays no role in my day to day life. My inability to speak Irish does not hinder me in the slightest as I go about my day (living in Drogheda, btw). Culturally, I do not engage in anything that uses the Irish language or requires a knowledge of it.

My culture is one of technology, of globalization and of modernity. My culture is one derived from American TV shows, Asian computer games, clothes and technology made in the Middle East and mainland Europe. My culture is one based on the English language, not Irish. The Irish language plays no part in my culture, no more than the Irish drinking culture or various other aspects of what makes the culture held by other individuals.

It is obviously a part of your culture, but it plays no part in my life whatsoever.

An important point that a lot of your type seems to miss is that 'Gaelgoirí' aren't attempting to impose anything on those of you that reject your own culture, merely that you respect those of us who treasure it.

Yes, that's why Irish is optional in schools, right? That's why there's so much fuss over the Gardai's inability to speak it, right? That's why a tonne of money is spent on keeping the Irish lobby groups happy while other aspects of our society sees job cuts and facilities declining? There actually is quite a bit of involuntary imposing of the Irish language on those of us who see no use of it in our lives.

I am more than happy to respect those of you who wish to treasure it, and despite the angle some take, I for one would not want it to die out. I'd just rather it's not forcibly imposed on 100% of the population during school. It's very much something that those who treasure it should keep alive, but it shouldn't be something that's forced on the entire country in order to keep the minority happy.

Coles

Well folks. That was an interesting discussion and I appreciate all the contributions and the sincerity with which they were made. I think the attitudes that you all expressed on this topic are very accurately reflected in this report and hopefully it puts your own opinions into some societal and historic context, and that you get a clearer understanding of the journey we're on.

The Irish Language and the Irish People.

Anyone who is interested in this topic should read it.

SWL

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's not part of my culture. It's part of my heritage, in the same way that living in stone huts during the famine is, the same way Joyce and Heaney is, in the same way O'Connell and the Irish battle against the British is. That's all part of what made Irish people the way we are today. And the Irish language, much like Irish dancing and the GAA, is also part of my heritage as well.

But it plays no role in my day to day life. My inability to speak Irish does not hinder me in the slightest as I go about my day (living in Drogheda, btw). Culturally, I do not engage in anything that uses the Irish language or requires a knowledge of it.

My culture is one of technology, of globalization and of modernity. My culture is one derived from American TV shows, Asian computer games, clothes and technology made in the Middle East and mainland Europe. My culture is one based on the English language, not Irish. The Irish language plays no part in my culture, no more than the Irish drinking culture or various other aspects of what makes the culture held by other individuals.

It is obviously a part of your culture, but it plays no part in my life whatsoever.

Yes, that's why Irish is optional in schools, right? That's why there's so much fuss over the Gardai's inability to speak it, right? That's why a tonne of money is spent on keeping the Irish lobby groups happy while other aspects of our society sees job cuts and facilities declining? There actually is quite a bit of involuntary imposing of the Irish language on those of us who see no use of it in our lives.

I am more than happy to respect those of you who wish to treasure it, and despite the angle some take, I for one would not want it to die out. I'd just rather it's not forcibly imposed on 100% of the population during school. It's very much something that those who treasure it should keep alive, but it shouldn't be something that's forced on the entire country in order to keep the minority happy.

As a Swedish man I can communicate everyday activities in Irish, I couldn’t hold a conversation in technical activities but I have a good basic knowledge of Irish.

I am astonished that so many Irish people are happy they don’t speak their native language and are dismissive of any attempts to restore it.

As fo rpeople who accuse the educational system of failing them, I would point to myself, self taught the basics and then went to classes, Des Bishop who learned the language in 9 months through immersion.

The idea that you regard your culture based on what is on TV is an indictment on yourself.

Wibbs

SWL wrote: »

I am astonished that so many Irish people are happy they don’t speak their native language and are dismissive of any attempts to restore it.

Outside the "Irish is dead" zealots, most just have an indifference to the language. Quite simply SWL it's because so many Irish people, the majority, don't feel it relevant enough to them to want or need to speak it. It is not their native language anymore and hasn't been for a long enough time.

Add in that many feel hectored into an appreciation for the language in their education(and beyond) and it's pretty easy to see why that indifference is there. Look at the attitudes(oh oh) of the Irish speaking "lobby"(for want of a better word) in this very thread and others that have come up. Condescending, even directly insulting(non Irish speakers have been called thick and chavs in this thread) towards their fellow Irish people with more than a hint of them not being irish enough. That kind of stuff hardly makes the language very attractive, if people reckon they may have to speak to those kind of minds should they learn it.

I dunno if there is the equivalent in Sweden. Maybe Finnish? IIRC there is quite a large group of Swedish people that speak Finnish. Can you speak Finnish? It's one of the native languages of Sweden(though being related I would imagine it's easier to pick up for a Swede than say Spanish might be). Now imagine if tomorrow a Finnish language lobby decided to promote Finnish as the "native language" throughout Sweden. That laws were enforced that insisted all Swedes had to be (badly)educated in the language, it was a requirement for the public service and other careers, that all signage and new placenames and some old ones had to now be in Finnish and that non Finnish speakers were somehow considered lesser Swedes. I would imagine in that context non Finnish speaking Swedes might be a bit pissed off. Of course that's an analogy that doesn't quite fit, but I'm using it to paint a broader picture.

The idea that you regard your culture based on what is on TV is an indictment on yourself.

It's but one cultural vector. Hey don't get me wrong, I can't stand hearing young wans whining on in faux mid Atlantic accents. I don't particularly like the erosion of some of the culture I grew up with, but damn near every generation comes out with this stuff. I'm sure some Swedes have the same whines(given the Swedes I've met with American English tones I suspect your nation has had it's fair share of foreign TV and film influences)The Greeks were whinging about Rome's influence. Nothing much has changed, except cultural change itself and the pace of same. Culture changes and it can change fast and in the modern world it can change very fast, but that's the nature of it and trying to fight it or preserve particular aspects of culture is often doomed to failure, unless the culture itself wants it.

Look at other Gaelic aspects of culture. Gaelic games go from strength to strength in Ireland and where Irish live abroad. Irish music has a local and worldwide following. We wanted them, we felt connected to them. That's the difference and if tomorrow we pulled the plug on government promotion of those pursuits they'd survive.

I would agree in one sense, the Irish inherited a very monoglot mindset from our neighbours. We're as bad as the English in this. Compared to your own people the Swedes who tend to have at least one other language, we're right down the league tables in Europe.

Iwasfrozen

Coles wrote: »

Well folks. That was an interesting discussion and I appreciate all the contributions and the sincerity with which they were made. I think the attitudes that you all expressed on this topic are very accurately reflected in this report and hopefully it puts your own opinions into some societal and historic context, and that you get a clearer understanding of the journey we're on.

The Irish Language and the Irish People.

Anyone who is interested in this topic should read it.

Skimmed the report, it's biased. The author describes those against revival as "negative" and "pessimistic". While those who agree with his views are "positive" and "optimistic". Instead of simply providing the results of his study he gives the impression that choosing Irish over English is a bad thing by his use of language. I have no time for propaganda.

Wibbs

Some of the conclusions are a little daft too. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Outside the relative success that has been the Irish language primary schools, the language has contracted massively in the last century. Eeven in previous strongholds. Consider this map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gaeltacht_1926.jpg then check out this one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gaeltacht_2007.jpg Compare and contrast. If a majority were that gung ho for it's promotion and preservation it wouldn't have happened. As SWL points out, he/she learned it easily enough, so why don't the rest of us?

9959

Coles wrote: »

Well folks. That was an interesting discussion and I appreciate all the contributions and the sincerity with which they were made. I think the attitudes that you all expressed on this topic are very accurately reflected in this report and hopefully it puts your own opinions into some societal and historic context, and that you get a clearer understanding of the journey we're on.

The Irish Language and the Irish People.

Anyone who is interested in this topic should read it.

Might read it later, much later, however, I do love the garish colours, particularly the vivid Orange/Gold of the fried egg, perhaps it's meant to represent the dawning of a new breakfast.
What's for tiffin?

opti0nal

Coles wrote: »

The Irish Language and the Irish People.Anyone who is interested in this topic should read it.

Totally self-serving document. The questions lead to the results desired by its backers. Did you notice that the forward was written by the head of CnaG?

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

doesn't suit, it is a right and the onus was on the Garda in question, and the Garda Síochána in general to facilitate its use.

The Gardai did facilitate its use. but due to the unreasonable expecation of the complainant, who committed a motoring offence in an English-speaking part of the country, it took some time to find a sufficiently fluent member to speak with him.

It's unreasonable of Irish speakers to expect service in Irish as quickly as in English when so few people speak Irish.

9959

opti0nal wrote: »

The Gardai did facilitate its use. but due to the unreasonable expecation of the complainant, who committed a motoring offence in an English-speaking part of the country, it took some time to find a sufficiently fluent member to speak with him.

It's unreasonable of Irish speakers to expect service in Irish as quickly as in English when so few people speak Irish.

opti0nal,
bless your heart, but you just don't get it, being 'UNREASONABLE' is part of their shtick, in fact it's their constitutional right to be unreasonable, if a zealot or a crank can't be 'unreasonable', then what's the bloody point.
This is a thread concerning the Irish language, so don't come around here with your highfalutin logic and common sense.

Lord TSC

SWL wrote: »

I am astonished that so many Irish people are happy they don’t speak their native language and are dismissive of any attempts to restore it.

It's not that I'm happy I don't speak it. I don't hate it either. The reality is I like most others are completely indifferent to it for the most part. I see little use for it other than to connect myself to my heritage, something I don't see a point of either. Likewise, I'm not dismissive of attempts to restore it; I just don't want to be part of it, don't want to be forced to learn it, and don't want to be insulted because I have made that choice over whats relevant in my life.

As fo rpeople who accuse the educational system of failing them, I would point to myself, self taught the basics and then went to classes, Des Bishop who learned the language in 9 months through immersion.

I'd be inclined to agree with you here. I don't blame the education system because ultimately even if the course changes, there's still going to be a majority who are apathetic to the language and that's the real problem. If people genuinely want to learn the language, they will. No excuses.

The idea that you regard your culture based on what is on TV is an indictment on yourself.

What can I say? I'm a writer and I absorb a whole lot of media of various forms; I read books, I listen to music, I view art, I watch movies and I watch television shows. Culture is, by definition, the way in which we express ourselves creatively and how we represent those creative inputs and outputs visually and symbolically. Much as how all cultures over time have been defined by artistic creations, ours is shaped and molded in a large part by television.

To be blunt, it's very elitist and insulting to get personal and say it's an indictment that I let what media I consume shape my view of culture. That's a huge part of how culture is formed, be it through watching the news and seeing world events, or sitting down and choosing to watch a DVD of a TV show, be it a popcorn action romp, a high-society documentary, a reality show (many of which have huge influences on our societies culture whether we like it or not) or whatever. Feel free to intellectually look down your nose at that, but that's reality of how society is forming it's culture in the modern age.

Grayson

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I'd be inclined to agree with you here. I don't blame the education system because ultimately even if the course changes, there's still going to be a majority who are apathetic to the language and that's the real problem. If people genuinely want to learn the language, they will. No excuses.

Nah, kids don't have any preconceived notions. Not under the age of 10 anyway. At that stage they've done hundreds of hours of Irish and can barely speak it.

The course it just crap.

Grayson

SWL wrote: »

As a Swedish man I can communicate everyday activities in Irish, I couldn’t hold a conversation in technical activities but I have a good basic knowledge of Irish.

I am astonished that so many Irish people are happy they don’t speak their native language and are dismissive of any attempts to restore it.

As fo rpeople who accuse the educational system of failing them, I would point to myself, self taught the basics and then went to classes, Des Bishop who learned the language in 9 months through immersion.

The idea that you regard your culture based on what is on TV is an indictment on yourself.

At the moment I'm doing a double honours BA. Then I start a masters. I may do another masters after that. This is all to get a better job.

But you seem to think I should be studying irish instead of bettering myself.

Honestly, I couldn't be bothered. There's no practical benefits to learning it. In my day to day life, latin would be more useful. The only benefit I'd get is the ability to look down on non irish speakers and tell them that they have no respect for their language.

And in the case of the gardai who stopped the irish speaker. The guys a prick. (the irish speaker). He could have spoken english, but decided to be a dick instead.

Canard

Grayson wrote: »

Nah, kids don't have any preconceived notions. Not under the age of 10 anyway. At that stage they've done hundreds of hours of Irish and can barely speak it.

The course it just crap.

This. You're taught no vocab, no grammar, nothing. I didn't even know genders existed in Irish til secondary school, yet people try to act like it's somehow not the education system's fault that people can't speak it. I never approached Irish with a bad attitude and it was always one of my better subjects, but that was down to one good teacher and a liking of languages. Fluency just doesn't happen with poetry, prose and rote-learned essays which assume your Irish is as good as, if not better than, your English.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

No, I'm making it out to sound as it actually happened,

Unless you were there, how is this possible?

a Man was stopped by a garda in relation to some unspecified traffic matter, choose to speak Irish and was arrested as a result. Weather it was after a few words or Irish or a whole recital of Peig is irrelevant.

How about "a man was stopped by the gardai in relatio to some unspecified traffic matter, chose not to comply with said guards". How is that not illegal?

The onus is on the man to co-operate with the Garda, no question about that, but it is his choice weather he wants to co-operate through English or through Irish, the onus is on the Gardaí to facilitate that choice.

No, the onus is on him to help the gardai with their enquiries. That or request a translator to aid him.

Speaking Irish is not a privilege that can be thrown by the wayside when it doesn't suit, it is a right and the onus was on the Garda in question, and the Garda Síochána in general to facilitate its use.
If time was wasted it was the fault of the Gardaí for failing to have the necessary procedures in place to deal effectively with Irish citizens choosing to use the first language of the state.

No, it is the Garda's job to enforce the law.

Grayson

Patchy~ wrote: »

This. You're taught no vocab, no grammar, nothing. I didn't even know genders existed in Irish til secondary school, yet people try to act like it's somehow not the education system's fault that people can't speak it. I never approached Irish with a bad attitude and it was always one of my better subjects, but that was down to one good teacher and a liking of languages. Fluency just doesn't happen with poetry, prose and rote-learned essays which assume your Irish is as good as, if not better than, your English.

I've always said, if I paid a private teacher to give that many lessons with that little payoff, I'd think I was being ripped off. And the thing is, I am. It's my taxes that are being used to badly implement someone's cultural policies.

It's bad enough that it's being done, it's criminal that it's being done so badly. I can say with a lot of certainty that no-one I went to school with is fluent. And I know it was a good school. I had to sit an entrance exam for my secondary school. Everyone of us (seven) managed to score in the top 20 in the exam. I managed to get in the top 10 of my irish exam. Which shocked me because I'd spent time abroad and was definitely the worst in the class in irish.
BTW, there were 20 kids in my year in primary school. It was a little country school. So when i say 7 sat the exam, there were only 12 boys in the class. So it's not like it was the top 7 from 100.

Anyways, my point is, that were did fantastically at everything. But not one of us was able to converse in irish. And when we did the leaving, I was the only one that did pass. All the others did what everyone does, memorised off answers for the oral. They still couldn't speak it.

Lord TSC

Patchy~ wrote: »

This. You're taught no vocab, no grammar, nothing.

I guess maybe I take my primary school for granted sometimes then. We had books and books of vocab and grammar. In fairness to my school, we did quite a bit of that sort of stuff.

Coles

More pathetic excuses. Always trying to blame others.

opti0nal

Grayson wrote: »

I've always said, if I paid a private teacher to give that many lessons with that little payoff, I'd think I was being ripped off. And the thing is, I am. It's my taxes that are being used to badly implement someone's cultural policies. ...It's bad enough that it's being done, it's criminal that it's being done so badly.

A native language lives at the heart of a person's cultural life. Irish is not being taught as a language, it's being taught as subject. This results in an outcome that it cannot be spoken in a natural way as part of a person's identiity. School children don't speak Irish, because it s not part of their lives.

Bad teaching is not the problem. The problem is the insane attitude of Irish language zealots.

Coles

opti0nal wrote: »

Bad teaching is not the problem. The problem is the insane attitude of Irish language zealots.

Always blaming others.

Iwasfrozen

Coles wrote: »

More pathetic excuses. Always trying to blame others.

I don't blame anyone for not speaking Irish. I just don't want to.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Coles wrote: »

More pathetic excuses. Always trying to blame others.

Coles wrote: »

Always blaming others.

Why would I balme someoen else for not getting me to do somethign I never wanted to do for the sole purpose of impressing people I don;t care about...??

marienbad

Coles wrote: »

More pathetic excuses. Always trying to blame others.

So what is your explanation then ?

opti0nal

Coles wrote: »

Always blaming others.

Explain what you mean.