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David McKittrick; These protests are NOT over the flag.

SoulandForm

Given that he is from an Ulster Protestant background, hardly sympathetic to militant Republicanism and that this is appearing in a mainstream British newspaper I hope that those who have expressed veiled sympathy for the protesters or criticized the Alliance Party for reaching the compromise it did with Nationalism and Republicanism will pay attention to what he has to say.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/these-belfast-riots-arent-over-the-flag--but-the-creation-of-a-fairer-society-8444651.html

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[Deleted User]

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That's your opinion, not fact.
And I think it's an idiotic one at best, nobody apart from dissidents are trying to get NI back to those times.

As for 'going soft' ?

I don't know about you but 100 arrests, using water cannons and plastic bullets is not my definition of 'soft policing'.

Less than 3 a night since the start, real hard nuts.

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I saw that video as well before, and I don't see any proof in it that the UVF is orchestrating things.

I'm shocked.

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That has been mentioned in other threads as well: It's not simply about that flag anymore, but about lack of education, a feeling of abandonment by the government, unemployment,...

If it were about these they would be waving the red flag and not the Union Jack; but they are not are they? Its about the rise of social power among those from a Roman Catholic background. They want to set the clock back to 1960.

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I checked some of the other threads because I was sure I read some things there where people claimed the UDA was behind it all, but can't find it.

My bad

Too busy drug dealing. Someone's got to get the coke in to refresh all those hardworking protesters doing double shifts, after all.

Jelle1880

I checked some of the other threads because I was sure I read some things there where people claimed the UDA was behind it all, but can't find it.

My bad

Cavehill Red

marozz wrote: »

Maybe it's a good opportunity for nationalist parties to get together and
make a concession, for the good of the community as a whole,
and let the loyalists have their flag fly all year round.
It would also be interesting to see the loyalist
reaction to such a "consession".

Or how about those people currently breaking the law 'concede' to stop doing so?

blahfckingblah

marozz wrote: »

Maybe it's a good opportunity for nationalist parties to get together and
make a concession, for the good of the community as a whole,
and let the loyalists have their flag fly all year round.
It would also be interesting to see the loyalist
reaction to such a "consession".

its not down to nationalists its down to democracy. democracy is the most important factor in this for me

SoulandForm

They would see it as weakness and go after other things.

marozz wrote: »

Maybe it's a good opportunity for nationalist parties to get together and
make a concession, for the good of the community as a whole,
and let the loyalists have their flag fly all year round.
It would also be interesting to see the loyalist
reaction to such a "consession".

SoulandForm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20929658

The PSNI have mentioned the UVF, they havent mentioned the UDA now have they??

Senior members they say, not just mere members or sympathizers.

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I saw that video as well before, and I don't see any proof in it that the UVF is orchestrating things.

Sure, there will be UVF members or sympathisers amongs the rioters, just like there were in the summer when things went bad.
But that doesn't mean this is all being set up by the UVF.

Ironically, a few days ago it was the UDA setting this all up according to some.

marozz

Maybe it's a good opportunity for nationalist parties to get together and
make a concession, for the good of the community as a whole,
and let the loyalists have their flag fly all year round.
It would also be interesting to see the loyalist
reaction to such a "consession".

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Ironically, a few days ago it was the UDA setting this all up according to some.

According to who? The UDA have not been overly enthusiastic about the protests from the start.

blahfckingblah

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I saw that video as well before, and I don't see any proof in it that the UVF is orchestrating things.

Sure, there will be UVF members or sympathisers amongs the rioters, just like there were in the summer when things went bad.
But that doesn't mean this is all being set up by the UVF.

Ironically, a few days ago it was the UDA setting this all up according to some.

you have your blinkers on if you think there is no sinister element to these protests

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I saw that video as well before, and I don't see any proof in it that the UVF is orchestrating things.

Sure, there will be UVF members or sympathisers amongs the rioters, just like there were in the summer when things went bad.
But that doesn't mean this is all being set up by the UVF.

I guess you're only going to see what you want to see.
Let me tell you what I see.
I see bricks raining down on the PSNI. Then they abruptly stop and Billy Hutchinson and some senior UVF figures step forward demanding to speak to 'whoever's in charge'.
Seems to me Billy and the boys can turn it on and off like a tap.

Jelle1880

Cavehill Red wrote: »

http://youtu.be/S0TLQBOUfFs

From about 9 minutes in.
Knock yourself out.

I saw that video as well before, and I don't see any proof in it that the UVF is orchestrating things.

Sure, there will be UVF members or sympathisers amongs the rioters, just like there were in the summer when things went bad.
But that doesn't mean this is all being set up by the UVF.

Ironically, a few days ago it was the UDA setting this all up according to some.

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

As for evidence that the UVF is behind this, care to show it ?
Because I don't see it anywhere here.

http://youtu.be/S0TLQBOUfFs

From about 9 minutes in.
Knock yourself out.

blahfckingblah

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That has been mentioned in other threads as well: It's not simply about that flag anymore, but about lack of education, a feeling of abandonment by the government, unemployment,...

You'll see it happen in every country where a significant amount of the youth has the same worries which I just mentioned.

But because we're talking about Northern Ireland it automatically means (to some) that they want a return to The Troubles ?

Nonsense.

As for evidence that the UVF is behind this, care to show it ?
Because I don't see it anywhere here.

ok then if thats the case what is their goal? what do you think needs to happen before they call an end to it? theres more than unemployment and dissatisfaction with the government at play or dublin would be in bits long ago

maccored

Jelle1880 wrote: »

It's not simply about that flag anymore, but about lack of education, a feeling of abandonment by the government, unemployment,....

how convenient they suddenly get worried about those issues when the whole flag issue was seen for what it was.

Jelle1880

blahfckingblah wrote: »

enlighten us so if it is such a ridiculous opinion as to why they are continuing to hold a city to siege, disrupt day to day life, ruin homes businesses and property,and damage their economy??

That has been mentioned in other threads as well: It's not simply about that flag anymore, but about lack of education, a feeling of abandonment by the government, unemployment,...

You'll see it happen in every country where a significant amount of the youth has the same worries which I just mentioned.

But because we're talking about Northern Ireland it automatically means (to some) that they want a return to The Troubles ?

Nonsense.

As for evidence that the UVF is behind this, care to show it ?
Because I don't see it anywhere here.

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

There is no proof that this is an orchestrated operation by the UVF (or the UDA, as claimed by others).

Your head's a marley if you don't think that the UVF are orchestrating much of this. They've been caught on video doing so, above.

blahfckingblah

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That's your opinion, not fact.
And I think it's an idiotic one at best, nobody apart from dissidents are trying to get NI back to those times.

As for 'going soft' ?

I don't know about you but 100 arrests, using water cannons and plastic bullets is not my definition of 'soft policing'.

enlighten us so if it is such a ridiculous opinion as to why they are continuing to hold a city to siege, disrupt day to day life, ruin homes businesses and property,and damage their economy??

Jelle1880

Cavehill Red wrote: »

And that's your opinion too.
I think the UVF's involvement in attempting to destabilise the North is of enormous concern, and no less threatening to peace than the activities of dissident Republicans, arguably moreso, given the apparent support they are garnering from the school dropouts in their community.

There is no proof that this is an orchestrated operation by the UVF (or the UDA, as claimed by others).

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That's your opinion, not fact.
And I think it's an idiotic one at best, nobody apart from dissidents are trying to get NI back to those times.

And that's your opinion too.
I think the UVF's involvement in attempting to destabilise the North is of enormous concern, and no less threatening to peace than the activities of dissident Republicans, arguably moreso, given the apparent support they are garnering from the school dropouts in their community.

Jelle1880

That's your opinion, not fact.
And I think it's an idiotic one at best, nobody apart from dissidents are trying to get NI back to those times.

As for 'going soft' ?

I don't know about you but 100 arrests, using water cannons and plastic bullets is not my definition of 'soft policing'.

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

They've been at it pretty much every night to get those blockades gone, which leads to rioting.

They have not.

The riots are about Loyalist Ulster showing just how "Loyal" it is. The Loyalists are trying to push Northern Ireland back into the "Troubles" because they believe that that will secure them their position as top dogs, or at least their tribe as top dogs, in the face of rising social and economic power in the RC community.

Cavehill Red

junder wrote: »

Poor pet indeed, still, she's the one blocking the roads up here along with many like her.

And she should be arrested, prosecuted and imprisoned for doing so.

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

You think officers are getting injured because they're allowing it to happen ?

No- but the fact is that they are going softly on the actual rioters and they are not freeing for normal traffic. This is emboldening the Loyalists and sending a pretty frightening message to the nationalist community.

Jelle1880

SoulandForm wrote: »

Why have they allowed the Loyalists night after night to block roads without taking them off the roads as they did with the residents of Ardoyne to allow the Orange Order which celebrates anti-RC pogroms to pass by?

You think officers are getting injured because they're allowing it to happen ?

They've been at it pretty much every night to get those blockades gone, which leads to rioting.

Not much more they can do, right ?

sure joe: I think you're stuck in the RUC times.
It's still not 50/50, but the amount of Catholics in the PSNI has increased immensely. And the fact that a police officer may or may not be Protestant does not necessarily mean he/she is a Loyalist.

So no, they're not 'protecting the Loyalist rioters', on the contrary.

SoulandForm: Not a clue what you're on about, but the evidence is out there which shows that protesters are re-routed past Republican areas, from which they are then attacked.
If a SF Councillor in Short Strand admits that Republican youths were the ones attacking then I'm pretty sure that's how it's happened.

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

FYI, the PSNI has repeatedly attacked protesters while leaving the brick-throwing idiots from the Republican side alone.
They also seem to think it's a marvellous idea to guide protesters back home past areas like the Short Strand.

I see have the swallowed the Britain First!/Jame Bryson version of events. Well done.

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Well you seemed to claim that the PSNI don't attack loyalists like they do republicans, apologies if that was misunderstood.

Why have they allowed the Loyalists night after night to block roads without taking them off the roads as they did with the residents of Ardoyne to allow the Orange Order which celebrates anti-RC pogroms to pass by?

sure joe

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Well you seemed to claim that the PSNI don't attack loyalists like they do republicans, apologies if that was misunderstood.

i dont think any impartial person would disagree with that. its amazing that the loyalists now see themselves as victims.

Jelle1880

Well you seemed to claim that the PSNI don't attack loyalists like they do republicans, apologies if that was misunderstood.