Pro. F wrote: » It's not ok under the law or the FA rules. If you choose to not get offended by xenophobic slaggings about your Irishness that is your call. If you are offended then you have the same protection and recourse under the law/rules as one of those black people that you think have a chip on their shoulder about being racially abused. So you can calm down, the PC brigade aren't out to get you.
Drumpot wrote: » I just think that real hardcore racism is mocked by this kind of stuff. I also think its ridiculous that a player calling somebody blackie blackie blackie is more newsworthy then the usual chants of United/Liverpool fans insulting the tragedies that befelled their clubs . . Its like how I cant understand how the likes of Madeline McCann obduction is more newsworthy then any other death/obduction/rape everyday. Society chooses what upset or angers it and then jumps on whatever bandwagon is going at the time. This is no differant, there are no UK black slave trade as far as I know in modern UK, so why would anynody take offence to a term that was used to describe something that somebody today cant possibly relate to? Its a first world problem and we all get sensitive about things that really arent important.
cambo2008 wrote: » Why are there laws against racially abusing someone if it's just a bandwagon??
PhlegmyMoses wrote: » You are making crass generalisations all over the place Drumpot. I'm not sure what your motivation is, trying to make out that everyone's opinions, bar your own, are influenced by media agendas. It seems to me that you are trying to justify your flawed logic by saying that everyone else is "PC mad" or slaves to the media. FWIW, I have barely read an article about the Ferdinand incident since it happened. My opinions are my own, based on what I believe to be just and fair. Deliberately not calling someone out over using racist language because you don't feel it is too bad is not something I can reconcile myself with.
Drumpot wrote: » Penalising a footballer for making a racist comment and letting the likes of Italian and Spanish clubs away with hardcore racism on the terraces is pathetic.
Pro. F wrote: » Ok so lets be clear, you were wrong when you talked about xenophobic abuse of Irish people being accepted by society. But now you want to move on to something else. The reason racial abuse gets more column inches than chants between United/Liverpool fans is because racism is a big problem in modern society. The chants between Liverpool and Man Utd supporters have very little effect outside of the footballing world. Racism carries over into wider society. There is also the additional reason that there are lots of uninformed people like yourself who deny that racial abuse is something that we should be dealing with at all. That debate generates even more column inches. The N word is used against black people as a form of abuse today. That's why people take offence at it. It doesn't particularly matter what its history is, if it's used as a form of racial abuse now then it is something that people can reasonably be offended by now. Not that the N word is even applicable to this case.
Drumpot wrote: » I never condoned racist comments, I am stating that they are disproportionately singled out for attention over more pressing matters like hooliganism and hardcore racism in the stands.
Penalising a footballer for making a racist comment and letting the likes of Italian and Spanish clubs away with hardcore racism on the terraces is pathetic. Bringing media attention to players using black as an insult simply allows the authorities to avoid the bigger issues with regards to racism.
And yes, I do think the world is PC mad. I wouldn't be in the minority otherwise so I'm awknowledging the fact that my views are not widely shared. Not sure what the conspiracy post was about, I already qualified my views on the hypocrisy of western media selective outrage. It's not a conspiracy, it's an objective observation. (That's plenty of fodder for some of you to wittingly turn my thread into a parody of itself )
Drumpot wrote: » Uniformed , brilliant. So because I have an alternative view on how society picks and chooses what things to get upset about, I'm uninformed and wrong?
Drumpot wrote: » Incidentally the reason I used differant examples was to highlight the double standards that society conforms and forces others to follow. I haven't condoned racism, I have said there are far more important elements of racism in football that deserve more attention (like thousands of fans monkey chanting), then two players insulting each other. If you think that in the last year only two players were called black "something" by a white player in the epl you are mistaken. The differance was as stated the reaction of a player and in one case a fan!
Drumpot wrote: » And to the poster who said they were never insulted based on their heritage (Irish), looks (scar) etc then they had a sheltered football life and never played outside Ireland. I didn't engage in insulting opponents but didn't get bothered by being in the end of it.
Pro. F wrote: » How are the English FA supposed to punish racist fans in Spain and Italy?
Pro. F wrote: » No, I said you are uninformed because you are uninformed. You didn't know that being abused in reference to your Irishness is also something that society (laws, FA rules, people in general) finds unacceptable. Fans monkey chanting in other countries gets plenty of attention. Nobody cares that you didn't get insulted. It's your choice whether you are insulted or not. The law and FA rules offer the same protection to everybody.
Drumpot wrote: » I was using the chronic problems of racism in other countries that's far more problematic and aggressive.
Drumpot wrote: » Incidentally, do you think there is no racism on the terraces in England? Do you think stopping players saying you black x is more important then stamping out hooliganism and venom hatred between fans.
Drumpot wrote: » You need only goto a gaa game and a united game to see the aggressive hatred in the game. Perhaps promoting a healthy rivalry woukdnt go astray. Ah but sure a footballer tried to rile another by calling him a black x so we have to confirm to PC modern society that once again disproportionately chooses what penalty should be incurred. I was at a united v Liverpool game a couple of years ago and united won. As a united fan I was intimidated by the sick chanting of united fans about Hillsboro and it completely ruined the occasion and that was on the tram back to the city centre after united had won 3-0! My Liverpool friend beside me was intelligent enough not to wear a jersey but quite frankly I think this is a bigger problem in football then racism, certainly from all the games I've gone to in England since my first game in old Trafford in 1992.
Drumpot wrote: » Take that up with the person who said the n word is not as bad as being called a white cracker because its all about how the person being insulted responds to the insult.
Drumpot wrote: » Incidentally, it's funny how so many rich footballers are so concerned about the kick it out movement, yet the organisation has a budget less then some of them make in a couple of weeks. There's alot to be said for putting your money where your supposed appalled mouth is.
cournioni wrote: » http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20048531 I find this quite ironic. Surely if there is to be a fight against racism then people must work together rather than segregating based on colour.
Pro. F wrote: » I know you were using them, hence why I referred to your use of them.1. Your point about racism being worse in other countries outside of the English FA's jurisdiction was irrelevant. Of course a racist incident that happened in the EPL is going to generate more interest in EPL circles than a racist incident that happened in another country. And of course the English FA are going to punish players and fans that are in their jurisdiction and leave the ones outside their jurisdiction alone. I think there is little racist chanting in the stands in England these days yes. Is there racism in the people in the stands? Yes of course, there is a huge amount of racism in English society in general. I lived there for a few years and it shocked me how much racism there was going on all around. Ireland is no great shakes either.2. As Phlegmy said, the Hillsborough chanting generated a lot of news this year. And those types of chants get a large dose of coverage every year. I would say that incidents like Terry and Suarez get more media coverage but then they are far more complex and wider reaching and also far less frequent.3. I seriously don't get what your problem is with political correctness. It would be a horrible world if we didn't have political correctness and people were allowed to racially abuse each other without sanction. It was like that for long enough in the past and it was shít. There were people like you, saying that we shouldn't worry about racist abuse, back then as well. Fortunately they were ignored and football grounds are far more welcoming places to all colours nowadays. And there is nothing disproportionate about a few games ban for racially abusing somebody. Football crowds chanting horrible shít about tragedies is not nice. We all agree on that and that is reflected in the press coverage. If you were saying that you think fans or teams should be punished more for those offensive chants about tragedies then I would listen to you. 4. But complaining about players being punished for racially abusing other players doesn't follow from that at all. A player getting a few games ban for racially abusing somebody and the press taking an interest in a heated debate around the case, doesn't detract from your wish to stop chants about tragedies.
Drumpot wrote: » 1. Actually it wasnt irrelevant as in Suarez case where he referred to the fact that using the phrase "negreto" is not considered racist in parts of South America. The fact that it was considered racist in the UK shows that there is a much more heightened sensitivity to what is percieved to be racist language that does little to further the progress of knocking it out of society, more a focus on the insignificant (ooh that player called him blackie), then the specific (there is a real hatred from that person towards black people)..
Drumpot wrote: » 2. No they dont get huge coverage every year, certainly not on the same level as one player calling another negreto a couple of times. I have been at United games were both sets of supporters were taunting each other and saw scuffles with police at a couple (serious fights) and was expecting to at least hear it mentioned on MOTD or news and nothing. Its such an accepted part of the culture (vicious chanting - scuffles) that its not even newsworthy , but one player calling another negreto is worthy of months of paper column inches. The player incident is more important in the fight against racism then the crowd ?! It might be part of the solution but its not dealing directly with the widespread violent undertones at grounds.
Drumpot wrote: » 3. Because it allows people to be smug , focusing on the small problem (players insulting each other) at the expense of properly addressing the real problem (vicious hatred among supporters within the game). Its like FIFAs "fair play" bull**** PR spin. The FA banning Suarez was an excercise in using a high profile footballer as an example, so they dont really have to deal with the problem. How many football teams have had to play matches behind closed doors ? How many teams have had points docked over the years (the things that will really hit clubs)?
Drumpot wrote: » 4. Do you really think a latino south American was racially abusing Evra ? Really, do you think he was slagging off all blacks (even possibly some of his own family) of the world and trying to use the venom attached to the N word to promote racism ? Of course he wasnt, he was using it to wind Evra up, but society (since it doesnt really want to deal with the problem) chose to show collective disgust because it meant it could feel good about itself that its properly dealing with the racist problem.
Drumpot wrote: » Lastly, I think in the context of this discussion, the whole idea of racism has been disolved. I consider racism to be hatred of another person because of where they are from or the color of their skin. I dont think use of words constitutes or warrants the same response as specified actions or aggression towards a particular race. If a person is racist they will use the use of the word to further their cause, if a person is not racist they will either ignore it or condemn it. I dont believe stamping out things like "you black x" or you "n**ger" are vital for the betterment of the game as much as changing the way there is so much anomosity and hatred from certain supporters. I personally dont agree that its ok to call somebodys mother a whore, slag family members or use any sort of insulting language to rile another player, but its fair game once its not considered racist. Its just hypocricy because its saying that its ok to slag my sick dad, but not the color of his skin simply because its PC to "not go there" . . I never said calling somebody a black X was fine. This is my main point, that football has zeroed in on one issue at the expense of the wider problem of violence, hatred and other issues within football. Incidentally, the FA have done more to add to tensions by giving a non UK player a bigger ban for racism then an English one. And now there is talk of a breakaway players association. Obviously they are dealing with the problem brilliantly . .
Liam O wrote: » Is it not racist to give black coaches more opportunities just because there is a perceived lack of them?
Liam O wrote: » ...I haven't seen any evidence of black coaches being discriminated against with regards to hiring.
Pro. F wrote: » Again you are confusing two separate issues. You think that if there was racist chanting from the stands in England the fans wouldn't be punished or the media wouldn't cover it? You say that Suarez was using it to wind up Evra yet you doubt that he was racially abusing him. You clearly don't even understand what you are saying yourself. Punishing people who racially abuse others is of course dealing with the problem. Anybody used to be able to sling racial abuse in football grounds, now anybody caught is punished. Use of racially abusive words does not carry the same punishment as racially abusive actions. So the rest of society agrees with you on that point you are just completely uninformed about the facts of the matter. Slagging somebody's mother and generally insulting language is also punishable under FA regulations as well. Football in England has zeroed in on racism, hooliganism and fan safety because those were the biggest issues facing the game (society and football is mostly ignoring homophobia for now unfortunately). Quite a good job has been done on all three. And while hooliganism is probably the issue that still causes the most problems it doesn't follow that we should give up on the other issues. With regards to your last paragraph, so now you want the FA to do more about racist abuse, not less? You are so confused it's funny.
Drumpot wrote: » Where did I say Suarez was not racially abusing Evra ? Please quote me on that . .
Drumpot wrote: » Do you really think a latino south American was racially abusing Evra ?
Pro. F wrote: » I said that you doubted that Suarez was racially abusing Evra. Here is the quote where you were doubting that Suarez was racially abusing Evra: This is just another example of your inability to carry on a discussion. I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post because it is just a continuation of your confused, self contradictory, uninformed rambling nonsense. I'm done humouring you for now.
niallo27 wrote: » I love the way you manage to insult the poster as well as giving your reply, your really quite good at it i must say. Well done you.
CSF wrote: » He is bang on the mark though.
niallo27 wrote: » He may well be, but why he feels to act like a dick and talk down to posters who have a different view to him.
Pro. F wrote: » I don't talk down to posters just because they have a different view to me. I disagree with plenty of posters and still keep it civil with them. I just don't have unlimited patience for dealing with stupid arguments. What I said about Drumpot and his argument is evidently true and it is perfectly reasonable to say as much. If somebody wants to talk nonsense and post incoherent arguments then it is fair to call them on that.
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