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Child Item

Abortion

tomtherobot

Now, normally i stay away from abortion debates because i find they're full of extremist types but this morning, i found the country's favorite moral crusader aka Ray D'arcy, preaching on about the rights of women who've had abortions. This led me to the conclusion that there's a general consensus these days that abortion is now acceptable to the majority (ok not just this alone), but if this is the case, i think it raises two issues going forward (as they say)

Firstly, maintenance payments for children? How can a society, or individual, who supports a woman's exclusive right to chose to have an abortion at the same time come to fathers with the paw out looking for money to support children. If a father has no choice whether the child is alive or not how can he be demanded to support that child? Makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Secondly, the Ray D'arcy show this morning was talking about counseling for women after abortion. Seemingly the HSE already pays for this. I can't understand how state support for counseling for women who've had abortions is justified. On one side of the debate, pro abortionists say it's a procedure to remove a physical growth which isn't alive. If that's the case why the need for counseling? On the other side, anti-abortionists say it's murder, so why would the state be counseling murderers? Did I miss something, do we not still have old folk being left to rot on trolleys, surely the HSE has greater priorities now than counseling women who've chose to have an abortion.

As you may have guessed, i'm anti-abortion. I'm not religious I just believe that an unborn child is alive. Why else would people mourn the loss of unborn or stillborn children? Or require counseling after 'terminating' one? Given that i believe that an unborn child is alive I think killing one is wrong and cannot be justified above the social or material needs of the parent(s). No more or less than i think it would be ok to kill your elderly parents just because they don't suit where you are in you're life right now.....

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eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Er...because she told someone else (who happened to be my best (and slightly less judgemental) best friend)

Okay fair enough, I didn't see that. Thanks for the clarification.

up for anything

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Perhaps.

btw what's a "moral majority"?

Dictionary definition: "a presumed majority of people believed to be in favour of a stricter code of public morals"

Sponge25 wrote: »

It depends, having unprotected sex with some whore ya met two hours ago in a nightclub is an excuse of a human being.

Having protected sex with a girl you've loved and been with for five years is a 'risk' to some degree but I don't think anyone can consider such people bad people if they would keep the baby!

As I said, I don't want a baby yet but if my gf got pregnant we both would be very happy!

I'm astounded by you and your thoughts in and around this subject. You are either very earnest about the topic or a wonderful WUM.

Sponge25

Gurgle wrote: »

I expect that day to be the end of abortion in europe, but not in other parts of the world. There will be a lot of pro-lifers quietly slinking away, but certainly not the majority.

I look forward to the day they can be put into storage and wait for a volunteer. Then everyone's happy.

Pro-lifers? So people who support abortions are pro-deathers?

Gurgle

Millicent wrote: »

There's quite a big fail rate with it, surprisingly enough.

Most of the 'failures' happen when people don't read the leaflet and have unprotected sex before they got the all clear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasectomy

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists state there is a generally agreed upon rate of failure of about 1 in 2000 vasectomies which is considerably better than tubal ligations for which there is one failure in every 200 to 300 cases.[24] Early failure rates, i.e. pregnancy within a few months after vasectomy typically result from having unprotected intercourse too soon after the procedure. Late failure, i.e. pregnancy after recanalization of the vasa deferentia, has been documented.[25] A 2005 systematic review of 28 studies described a total of 183 failures or recanalizations from approximately 43,642 vasectomy patients (0.4%), and 20 studies in the same review described 60 pregnancies after 92,184 vasectomies (0.07%).[26]

Gurgle

Sponge25 wrote: »

Pro-lifers? So people who support abortions are pro-deathers?

Oh crap, please find my first post in this thread and pretend I stuck to my own rules.

Anti-abortion, not pro-life.

OldNotWIse

Gurgle wrote: »

I expect that day to be the end of abortion in europe, but not in other parts of the world. There will be a lot of pro-lifers quietly slinking away, but certainly not the majority.

I look forward to the day they can be put into storage and wait for a volunteer. Then everyone's happy.

Exactly. Look at everything infertile couples have to go through now just to get to the embryo stage - hormonal injections, cycle monitoring, super ovulation, egg harvesting etc etc. If the embryo is already there...thats half the battle

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Exactly. Look at everything infertile couples have to go through now just to get to the embryo stage - hormonal injections, cycle monitoring, super ovulation, egg harvesting etc etc. If the embryo is already there...thats half the battle

There are actually embryos out there that are unwanted just sitting in storage. Their "parents" can either pay huge sums of money each year to keep them or they can be destroyed. Many couples don't ever need all the embryos they have so in theory they could be donated with the consent of the parents.

Gurgle

Sponge25 wrote: »

Can people with a vesectomy ejaculate? Considering semenily fluid is produced in the abdomen and NOT the testes!?

Yes, sex is exactly the same after a vasectomy.

Khannie

Mickeroo wrote: »

Yes I've no doubt they exist but using the tiny tiny tiny minority to support your argument is a little facetious imo.

This whole issue is really about the tiny tiny minorities though. People who have been raped and are pregnant as a result are a tiny tiny minority of pregnancies, yet I think it is right to consider their predicament very, very seriously. I feel very strongly for them. I can't begin to imagine what that's like.

Personally I have never had a pregnancy result from failed contraception. I have always been careful (or in a relationship where I'd be grand with a baby resulting) and I have had lots of sex in my time (thankfully). I have had surprise pregnancies mind you, one that was total "ah here....come on", but with hindsight they always came down to lack of proper use of contraception.

featherlite

Just ask Ray Darcy was it Zig or Zag that had an abortion.His stance has all important criteria for all of this thread.

tomtherobot

I missed some of the recent debate here so give me a chance to catch up but i'd just like to add:

If you call yourself pro-choice in the abortion debate, are you pro the mothers, the fathers or the states choice to decide?

Why do people who call themselves pro-choice keep resorting to (mis)using the same arguments, whereby a woman is forced through tragic circumstance to have an abortion. If a woman becomes pregnant through rape, she has not chosen to have this abortion, it is forced upon her. Likewise, if she has had an abortion because of some medical emergency, she has not chosen it.

To the people who say that abortion is not killing it is just a tough decision to decide not to create life. Why is this decision tougher than using contraception or masturbating?

Would you tell somebody who has just lost a child through miscarriage or stillbirth that it wasn't really a child, just a fetus with the potential for life?

And for the guy that weighed in with counseling being by nature non-judgmental. Fine, counsel all the murderers and pedophiles you want just don't tell me their actions aren't wrong. If a group of men got together and decided to create an advocacy group, saying it was their right to beat their wives, it would be hypocritical of them to demand the state pay for their wives counseling. Likewise it is hypocritical for pro-abortionists to demand state-funded abortion counseling.

Neyite

eviltwin wrote: »

The problem with that is a lot of the scans that show severe medical problems won't be done until week 12 - if you're lucky. Some pregnant women are waiting up until week 16 for a first scan. There needs to flexibility for a woman who finds out her baby won't survive.

Its 23 weeks in some hospitals- I had to kick up hell to have an earlier scan, finally getting one scheduled for 17 weeks and being huffily told by a HSE worker I was to consider myself lucky at that. :rolleyes:

And the reason I wanted an earlier scan? I conceived twins on a much wanted and long desired pregnancy as a result of fertility treatment but a privately paid for scan at 9 weeks revealed one twin had died. I desperately wanted to attend the hospital and get scanned by experts and speak to an OBGYN to see if there was a risk to the existing twin, I also had a hormonal imbalance that needs to be managed to avoid risk to pregnancy, and still could not get an appointment.

Finally my GP pulled a favour and got me seen at 11 weeks, where the OBGYN admonished me for not seeing him sooner.

I have to say that once I was in the system, I was very well looked after right up to and during the birth of my son. But jesus, it was some job to get in there in the first place, and I would not have even gotten there without a brilliant GP.

charlietheminxx

tomtherobot wrote: »

I missed some of the recent debate here so give me a chance to catch up but i'd just like to add:

If you call yourself pro-choice in the abortion debate, are you pro the mothers, the fathers or the states choice to decide?

Why do people who call themselves pro-choice keep resorting to (mis)using the same arguments, whereby a woman is forced through tragic circumstance to have an abortion. If a woman becomes pregnant through rape, she has not chosen to have this abortion, it is forced upon her. Likewise, if she has had an abortion because of some medical emergency, she has not chosen it.

To the people who say that abortion is not killing it is just a tough decision to decide not to create life. Why is this decision tougher than using contraception or masturbating?

Would you tell somebody who has just lost a child through miscarriage or stillbirth that it wasn't really a child, just a fetus with the potential for life?

And for the guy that weighed in with counseling being by nature non-judgmental. Fine, counsel all the murderers and pedophiles you want just don't tell me their actions aren't wrong. If a group of men got together and decided to create an advocacy group, saying it was their right to beat their wives, it would be hypocritical of them to demand the state pay for their wives counseling. Likewise it is hypocritical for pro-abortionists to demand state-funded abortion counseling.

Maybe you should read what people said to your original points before reiterating them again? By all means take your time to catch up but what's the point in posting without doing so? You're just asking the same questions and making the same flawed comparisons.

Khannie

What hospital was that Neyite? We've had more than statistically significant number of miscarriages and for our last 4 pregnancies we've been sent to the early pregnancy unit for scans without any issue at all. We just rang the hospital and asked if memory serves (Rotunda).

eviltwin

tomtherobot wrote: »

I missed some of the recent debate here so give me a chance to catch up but i'd just like to add:

If you call yourself pro-choice in the abortion debate, are you pro the mothers, the fathers or the states choice to decide?

I believe in the will of the people, I would be pro-choice but if a majority vote to keep Ireland abortion free I respect that. I still think though in that case there should be proper aftercare.

Why do people who call themselves pro-choice keep resorting to (mis)using the same arguments, whereby a woman is forced through tragic circumstance to have an abortion. If a woman becomes pregnant through rape, she has not chosen to have this abortion, it is forced upon her. Likewise, if she has had an abortion because of some medical emergency, she has not chosen it.

I didn't but its a valid argument, right now abortion is denied to all. Surely even if you disagree with abortion on demand you can accept it should be legal for the women who fall into the above groups and give them access to it here.

To the people who say that abortion is not killing it is just a tough decision to decide not to create life. Why is this decision tougher than using contraception or masturbating?

No idea what this means

Would you tell somebody who has just lost a child through miscarriage or stillbirth that it wasn't really a child, just a fetus with the potential for life?

No of course not, you would treat them with kindness and compassion and not add to their hurt and pain.

And for the guy that weighed in with counseling being by nature non-judgmental. Fine, counsel all the murderers and pedophiles you want just don't tell me their actions aren't wrong. If a group of men got together and decided to create an advocacy group, saying it was their right to beat their wives, it would be hypocritical of them to demand the state pay for their wives counseling. Likewise it is hypocritical for pro-abortionists to demand state-funded abortion counseling.

Everyone's taxes pay for things they don't agree with. I have to pay taxes to fund companies that test on animals, I have to pay tax to pay over inflated wages of TD's, I have to pay for Catholic schools. I don't like any of those but I accept when you live in a diverse society you have to be fair and not expect things your own way all the time. /QUOTE]

Matt_Trakker

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

To be honest I dont agree with that timeframe at all, I think it should be definitely legal here but perhaps only up until about 11 or 12 weeks.

most women don't even know they're pregnant until 12 weeks, kinda pointless to have an abortion if ya don't even know you're pregnant.

Khannie

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

most women don't even know they're pregnant until 12 weeks

Nonsense.

Matt_Trakker

Khannie wrote: »

Nonsense.

prove it

[Deleted User]

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

prove it

If you're going to demand that someone "prove it", maybe you should consider backing up your original claim.

charlietheminxx

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

most women don't even know they're pregnant until 12 weeks, kinda pointless to have an abortion if ya don't even know you're pregnant.

Most women know before 10 weeks. Some don't of course, but most do.

Reality_Check1

I dont really like weighing in with my opinions to serious debates like this because to be honest peoples opinions are already set in stone and no amount of well thought out or constructed arguements are likely to change that....but Im bored so whatever

tomtherobot wrote: »

I missed some of the recent debate here so give me a chance to catch up but i'd just like to add:

If you call yourself pro-choice in the abortion debate, are you pro the mothers, the fathers or the states choice to decide?

Why do people who call themselves pro-choice keep resorting to (mis)using the same arguments, whereby a woman is forced through tragic circumstance to have an abortion. If a woman becomes pregnant through rape, she has not chosen to have this abortion, it is forced upon her. Likewise, if she has had an abortion because of some medical emergency, she has not chosen it.

To the people who say that abortion is not killing it is just a tough decision to decide not to create life. Why is this decision tougher than using contraception or masturbating?

Would you tell somebody who has just lost a child through miscarriage or stillbirth that it wasn't really a child, just a fetus with the potential for life?

And for the guy that weighed in with counseling being by nature non-judgmental. Fine, counsel all the murderers and pedophiles you want just don't tell me their actions aren't wrong. If a group of men got together and decided to create an advocacy group, saying it was their right to beat their wives, it would be hypocritical of them to demand the state pay for their wives counseling. Likewise it is hypocritical for pro-abortionists to demand state-funded abortion counseling.

To the above poster I cant speak for everyone that is "pro choice" because even the definition of the term is different for everyone but I like to think that being "pro choice" means that you support the idea of having resources available to provide to women that may need/want to seek an abortion

You cant really compare an abortion to using contraception since the actual mechanics of an abortion involve an extremely invasive medical procedure as well as having obvious psychological aspects to it. You wouldnt tell a lady who lost a child to miscarriage that it was "only" a fetus as they need their coping mechanisms too they just happen to be different to the needs of a lady who got an abortion.

Your last point is completely nonsensical if I'm being honest. Like I said previously people who are pro choice just want the resources made available to a lady who may find herself in this situation. They arent going around forcing abortions on people and then demanding counselling for them

tomtherobot

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

that's nonsense its not at all the same as abortion. they have experienced life and have breathed air, they arent a little bunch of cells clustered up.

Fine, go and tell people mourning a miscarriage or a stillbirth that it wasn't a life just a little bunch of clustered up cells

Millicent wrote: »

As to the ridiculous OP who doesn't think that counselling should be available in such an instance, that says a lot about your humanity and compassion for other human beings.

I clarified that i think it's a good thing for counseling to be available for people who've had abortion forced upon them. A different matter entirely when it's advocated, or chose as a lifestyle choice.

charlietheminxx wrote: »

Maybe you should read what people said to your original points before reiterating them again? By all means take your time to catch up but what's the point in posting without doing so? You're just asking the same questions and making the same flawed comparisons.

I am responding to comments as i get through them, in that post i had been responding to what was new. Can you give me something more than just calling my arguments flawed?

Matt_Trakker

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're going to demand that someone "prove it", maybe you should consider backing up your original claim.

ah, you again.

[Deleted User]

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

ah, you again.

Care to expand?

Khannie

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

prove it

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're going to demand that someone "prove it", maybe you should consider backing up your original claim.

What she said. I call plucked from the air nonsense so you back up your original claim there please.

I know there are cases of it, but the hormonal changes that affect a woman more or less immediately, not to mention a missed period (it would be 8 weeks late by 12 weeks!!!) = seems highly unlikely that most women are going to make it past 12 weeks not knowing they're pregnant as you claim.

Idle Passerby

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

most women don't even know they're pregnant until 12 weeks, kinda pointless to have an abortion if ya don't even know you're pregnant.

12 weeks is 3 months. You dont think a sexually active, grown woman who has missed 3 periods, probably put on weight and possibly having morning sickness wouldn't have twigged something by then?

Sponge25

How long does it take before a lady feels symptomatic of pregnancy? Anyone ever seen 'I didn't know I was pregnant' or some similiar titled documentary about women who suddenly find themselves giving birth in the bath or the kitchen floor without even knowing they were pregnant untill they went into labour!?

Khannie

Sponge25 wrote: »

How long does it take before a lady feels symptomatic of pregnancy?

On our last pregnancy I knew my wife was pregnant from looking at her boobs at 4 weeks (i.e. probably 2 weeks after implantation, give or take). No joke. She said she noticed it too. Pee'd on a stick and presto. She was pregnant.

tomtherobot

eviltwin wrote: »

I didn't but its a valid argument, right now abortion is denied to all. Surely even if you disagree with abortion on demand you can accept it should be legal for the women who fall into the above groups and give them access to it here.

Yes, just like it's legal to kill in self defense. It doesn't make killing by choice ok and the two arguments should not be confused.

eviltwin wrote: »

No of course not, you would treat them with kindness and compassion and not add to their hurt and pain.

But if you believed their suffering was in some part caused by a false believe that the unborn child was alive, the kind compassionate thing to do would be to set them right?

eviltwin wrote: »

Everyone's taxes pay for things they don't agree with. I have to pay taxes to fund companies that test on animals, I have to pay tax to pay over inflated wages of TD's, I have to pay for Catholic schools. I don't like any of those but I accept when you live in a diverse society you have to be fair and not expect things your own way all the time.

I don't get this. Because the government does other wrong things we have to except all the wrong things they do??? What?

Sponge25

Khannie wrote: »

On our last pregnancy I knew my wife was pregnant from looking at her boobs at 4 weeks (i.e. probably 2 weeks after implantation, give or take). No joke. She said she noticed it too. Pee'd on a stick and presto. She was pregnant.

Well done:)

haha, yeah I heard girls boobies hurt when they're pregnant sometimes! Maybe it's something to do with milk production to feed the baby?