nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Abortion

tomtherobot

Now, normally i stay away from abortion debates because i find they're full of extremist types but this morning, i found the country's favorite moral crusader aka Ray D'arcy, preaching on about the rights of women who've had abortions. This led me to the conclusion that there's a general consensus these days that abortion is now acceptable to the majority (ok not just this alone), but if this is the case, i think it raises two issues going forward (as they say)

Firstly, maintenance payments for children? How can a society, or individual, who supports a woman's exclusive right to chose to have an abortion at the same time come to fathers with the paw out looking for money to support children. If a father has no choice whether the child is alive or not how can he be demanded to support that child? Makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Secondly, the Ray D'arcy show this morning was talking about counseling for women after abortion. Seemingly the HSE already pays for this. I can't understand how state support for counseling for women who've had abortions is justified. On one side of the debate, pro abortionists say it's a procedure to remove a physical growth which isn't alive. If that's the case why the need for counseling? On the other side, anti-abortionists say it's murder, so why would the state be counseling murderers? Did I miss something, do we not still have old folk being left to rot on trolleys, surely the HSE has greater priorities now than counseling women who've chose to have an abortion.

As you may have guessed, i'm anti-abortion. I'm not religious I just believe that an unborn child is alive. Why else would people mourn the loss of unborn or stillborn children? Or require counseling after 'terminating' one? Given that i believe that an unborn child is alive I think killing one is wrong and cannot be justified above the social or material needs of the parent(s). No more or less than i think it would be ok to kill your elderly parents just because they don't suit where you are in you're life right now.....

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

tomtherobot

Sharrow wrote: »

You honestly have not taken the time to consider and put yourselves in the shoes of a woman who finds out she is pregnant and had to then not continue the pregnancy despite wanting kids but does so as it's not right for her in her life at that time.

So it's a lifestyle choice.....

books4sale wrote: »

That's sick man!

That's why this country is where it is because weak people stand by, do nothing and meekly say '....its fine'.

It's not bloody fine, stand up and defeat this apathy.

I was being sarcastic just in case there's any doubt. I can't believe pro-abortionists get away with calling themselves pro-choice. Either side in any debate can call themselves pro-choice. We'd all like to chose for things to be the way we want them.

eviltwin wrote: »

How many of the other pro-life posters think post abortion counselling should be done away with?

Ok, I need to clarify what i meant in the OP. I support post abortion counselling, if a person has had an abortion forced upon them in some way. I cannot see how pro-abortionists can demand counseling, for a lifestyle choice, without acknowledging that the choice is harmful.

Morag

tomtherobot wrote: »

I was being sarcastic just in case there's any doubt. I can't believe pro-abortionists get away with calling themselves pro-choice. Either side in any debate can call themselves pro-choice. We'd all like to chose for things to be the way we want them.

Pro choice means I support women who make any of the possible choices
when they are in a crises pregnancy situation or a complicated pregnancy.

tomtherobot wrote: »

Ok, I need to clarify what i meant in the OP. I support post abortion counselling, if a person has had an abortion forced upon them in some way. I cannot see how pro-abortionists can demand counseling, for a lifestyle choice, without acknowledging that the choice is harmful.

Not every woman who has an abortion needs post abortion counseling, I didn't and my abortion wasn't harmful to me in any way.

tomtherobot

Sharrow wrote: »

Pro choice means I support women who make any of the possible choices
when they are in a crises pregnancy situation or a complicated pregnancy.

Because you have chosen it to mean this. When I hear pro-choice, I think pro an adult's choice to be a peadophile, or exterminate the disabled, or smoke in a pub, whatever your having really.

Sharrow wrote: »

Not every woman who has an abortion needs post abortion counseling, I didn't and my abortion wasn't harmful to me in any way.

I think it's pretty clear that's not really relevant to my point. Can an abortion be harmful or is it the same as contraception?

Frito

tomtherobot wrote: »

I can't believe pro-abortionists get away with calling themselves pro-choice. Either side in any debate can call themselves pro-choice. We'd all like to chose for things to be the way we want.

I wonder if the terms 'pro-forced gestation' and 'anti-forced gestation' might be less ambiguous. Definitely more of a mouthful though.

Morag

tomtherobot wrote: »

Because you have chosen it to mean this. When I hear pro-choice, I think pro an adult's choice to be a peadophile, or exterminate the disabled, or smoke in a pub, whatever your having really.

Well that is your own twisted thinking.

tomtherobot wrote: »

I think it's pretty clear that's not really relevant to my point. Can an abortion be harmful or is it the same as contraception?

By that rationale being pregnant and giving birth can be harmful so no one should ever do that either.

Irishchick

Sharrow wrote: »

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/flu/A-Z/E/Ectopic-pregnancy/Treating-ectopic-pregnancy.html

The baby cannot be saved in an ectopic pregnancy. However, if the ectopic pregnancy is diagnosed before your fallopian tube ruptures, the pregnancy can be safely ended using medication or surgery. Your specialist, or gynaecologist, will be able to advise you about the benefits and risks of each option.

The ending of a pregnancy by medical intervention is an abortion.
Indeed it is the very definition of abortion.

No it isnt. Ask any medical professional. It is not defined as an abortion. Legally or medically.

RDM_83 again

Sharrow wrote: »

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/flu/A-Z/E/Ectopic-pregnancy/Treating-ectopic-pregnancy.html

The ending of a pregnancy by medical intervention is an abortion.
Indeed it is the very definition of abortion.

No its more complicated than that it could be consider that its "the termination of pregnancy before viability"* so in the cases your referring to, ectopic pregnancies which are never viable (they're has been literally a handful of cases in which this is not the case) your wrong.

* http://www.ajol.info/index.php/gmj/article/viewFile/55256/43723

tomtherobot

Frito wrote: »

I wonder if the terms 'pro-forced gestation' and 'anti-forced gestation' might be less ambiguous. Definitely more of a mouthful though.

I think a gestation is going to continue anyway without intervention, unless there's illness etc. An abortion's an abortion. We tend not to define things by the absence of another. I say it's snowing. I don't say there an absence of not snow in the air.

Unless your making some reference to rape, where there is already a clear and unambiguous term. I don't really get your point.

krudler

tomtherobot wrote: »

I think it's pretty clear that's not really relevant to my point. Can an abortion be harmful or is it the same as contraception?

contraception stops you getting pregnant to begin with, how is that in any way the same thing?

Irishchick

Off topic but I'm glad we can have a good debate on this subject without some resorting to personal insults. It happens all too often when where this subject is concerned !

tomtherobot

Sharrow wrote: »

Well that is your own twisted thinking.

We can just resort to name calling if you like, guess what I think is twisted?

Sharrow wrote: »

By that rationale being pregnant and giving birth can be harmful so no one should ever do that either.

Sorry, what? I really just don't understand what you're saying here?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Where's my minature American flag?

tomtherobot

krudler wrote: »

contraception stops you getting pregnant to begin with, how is that in any way the same thing?

We know the biological difference between abortion and contraception. Why does one have an impact that might require counseling and the other does not?

Irishchick wrote: »

Off topic but I'm glad we can have a good debate on this subject without some resorting to personal insults. It happens all too often when where this subject is concerned !

Looks like it's begun but i'll stop if everyone else will!

Morag

tomtherobot wrote: »

Sorry, what? I really just don't understand what you're saying here?

Can't say I am surprised by that.

Mr Benevolent

ballsymchugh wrote: »

needs counselling though.

And a heavy wooden implement to the face.

krudler

tomtherobot wrote: »

We know the biological difference between abortion and contraception. Why does one have an impact that might require counseling and the other does not?

because one is ending what could be a life, the other stops that life from occurring at all. jesus if you wanna philosophical about it why not include masturbation, if that needed counselling I would have made someone a millionaire in fees by now.

Frito

tomtherobot wrote: »

I don't really get your point.

Replace the prefixes with 'in favour of' and 'against'.

[Deleted User]

Actor wrote: »

You forgot about the intent part. The intent with ectopic pregnancies in Ireland is to save both lives if possible. The intent of "abortion" is to kill unborn life for the benefit of the mother's individual circumstances.

not true at all. in an ectopic pregnancy there is no other life except the mothers. usually these things come to light between 4 to 8 weeks in the pregnancy.
saving the 'life' of the unborn does not come into it. its a medical procedure and it is done immediately.
it is not considered abortion, because if it was it wouldnt be done in this country.
and women would die.

tomtherobot

krudler wrote: »

because one is ending what could be a life, the other stops that life from occurring at all. jesus if you wanna philosophical about it why not include masturbation, if that needed counselling I would have made someone a millionaire in fees by now.

Im not sure if you've got my original point. I think masturbation and contraception are fine, so I would never advocate state funded counseling for either. If i thought abortion was fine, it would be ridiculous for me to advocate state funded counseling for it.

LeeHoffmann

show of hands for closing the thread?

goodie2shoes

i am against abortion as i feel it is the willful destruction of a human life.

therefore any woman that aborts her child most probably does NEED counselling.

sadly for some women abortion is considered little more than a delayed form of contraception, and i dont think counselling will be much use to these types.

partyatmygaff

jill_valentine wrote: »

Have you ever asked any women anything about the subject?

We have posters here who have actually had an abortion themselves, but curiously few of the chaps hollering on their behalf ever seem to consider them relevant. Which is about par for the course, really.

They're very free to express their views as well. Their experiences, interesting and insightful as they can be, don't necessarily make their opinions valid though.

Despite what you and others may be inclined to think, you'll also find that quite a number of people who are pro-life would know and even may be closely related to a woman who had or seriously considered an abortion.

tomtherobot

jill_valentine wrote: »

Have you ever asked any women anything about the subject?

We have posters here who have actually had an abortion themselves, but curiously few of the chaps hollering on their behalf ever seem to consider them relevant. Which is about par for the course, really.

Yeah i don't buy this stuff either that women should have more, or all, of the say when it comes to abortion.

Let's say a man is walking home one night. He see's one woman killing another. By this thinking he shouldn't intervene. I mean who is he to be telling women what to do with their bodies.....

cassi

Dangerous Man wrote: »

cassi wrote: »

The thread title is a load I crap. No one Is saying that abortion is ok! But thankfully many people are past the age old caveman mindset that ALL women that have abortions are sluts that are looking for a way out.

There are a barrel load of reasons that women choose abortion. Not all of them the easy way out as the op seems believe.

And equating pro choice to thinking its okay to kiddy fiddle is just embarrassing as a counter argument. Perhaps if pro lifers could actually make debates without resorting to pettiness or god or killing then these debates may actually go somewhere!!

I haven't mentioned God once. I haven't mentioned killing once. I haven't been petty once. Read the thread.

I wasn't talking about you nor did I mention any specific person. Read my post!

Royal Legend

seamus wrote: »

Why can't we do both? Do counselling services occupy beds in hospitals? Nope.

If someone requires assistance in the form of counselling, is there ever any justification for turning around and saying, "Fnck you, you made your bed now lie in it"?

Tell you what, from now on everyone who presents at A&E will be assessed as to whether it was their own fault or a genuine accident. Heart attack? Tough ****, you're fat, it's your fault, go home.
Overdose? Haha, you're joking right, get out of my hospital.

Always puzzles me how so many people claim to oppose abortion on the basis of life, yet show very little humanity for those who actually are alive.[/QUOTE]

Reply of the day IMO, this thread should close.

goodie2shoes

btw i am not religious.
my views are purely based on what i believe to be the correct, moral thing to do.

efb

Fcuk me can we have an abortion forum that can be hidden???

efb

goodie2shoes wrote: »

btw i am not religious.
my views are purely based on what i believe to be the correct, moral thing to do.

Do you believe you should be allowed to impose your will and morals on others?

tomtherobot

seamus wrote: »

yet show very little humanity for those who actually are alive.

Im all for humanity, counsel the poor, sick, needy, drug addicts, domestic abuse victims etc etc

Now hypocrisy on the other hand, i've no time for.....

goodie2shoes

efb wrote: »

Do you believe you should be allowed to impose your will and morals on others?

no of course not, but i shouldn't be prevented from expressing them either because it might be considered upsetting or inconvenient to others.