Skeletons in the closet at Human Body Exhibit

Bambi wrote: »

I went to it twice and I don't vaguely care about the "dead people" angle, its the human anatomy and innards on display and it's pretty interesting to see stuff like the circulatory system isolate, the sheer size of your aortas, the nerve bundles in your face etc. So yeah I learned stuff and appreciated stuff and it looked like other people there did too.

it's a bit like calling a wake a freak show tbh.

A wake is where family and friends gather to mourn the passing of a loved one. You paid €20 to have a look at a dead persons body because you were curious. I'm sure a lot of people are curious about the anatomy but its still using peoples remains to satisfy people curiosity. Unless your charging strangers entrance into wakes your analogy is quite a long way off.

Dyr

MungBean wrote: »

A wake is where family and friends gather to mourn the passing of a loved one. You paid €20 to have a look at a dead persons body because you were curious. I'm sure a lot of people are curious about the anatomy but its still using peoples remains to satisfy people curiosity. Unless your charging strangers entrance into wakes your analogy is quite a long way off.

But if admission was free it would be okay

al28283 wrote: »

So you agree people can learn from looking at dead people

Studying not looking. People can learn by studying the anatomy and that can be done with donated bodies in an educational institution. Not a free for all with bodies that were never identified.

Bambi wrote: »

But if admission was free it would be okay

How do you make that out from what I said when my main issue is with the lack of consent

Wake = family respecting and mourning a loved one.

Exhibition = people put on display without consent to make money.

If it was educational and done purely for education with the consent of the deceased or family then I have no problem.

ShooterSF

MungBean wrote: »

So rather than having someone making an effort to try and treat your remains with respect you'd rather they say "nobody knows who it is lets do whatever we want. I know lets use it to make some money" ?

What is treating my body with respect? What does that even mean? You might as well treat a rock with respect. It has no feelings or awareness. My body doesnt know. Sure if you want to talk about doing something to ease people that know me's suffering that's a different kettle of fish.
Also why is digging a hole in the ground and and dumping me in it respectful? Why is putting me on exhibit not?

Thats pretty fcuked up logic. Just because you dont care you dont think anyone else's remains deserves any respect.

What do you mean I don't care. I just said I did. I don't want my carcass lumped into the ground wasted when it could be put to use unless lumping it into the ground eases the suffering of people that after my death can give a SHIt because I cant. Why is lumping a carcass into the ground any more "respectful" btw? If you want to respect my body put it in one of those glass coffins in some cathedral type worshippy building. Or failing that a glass box in an exhibit.

What would be even cooler would be if I could sign up now and cut a deal that saw my family get some royalties from the exhibit (and a free pass) if they were cool with it.

You call my logic fcuked up but logically why is it respectful to bury a body when no one knows the wishes of the prior owner of said carcass and no one knows any interested related party or their wishes for the use of the carcass? I think you're thinking emotionally rather than logically. Why is it logical to care what a dead person wanted in the first place. They won't have a clue what you do with their body, you can't upset them. You can upset friends and family certainly but in a case where they aren't around it's highly illogical to place any value on the wishes of the dead person.

ShooterSF wrote: »

What is treating my body with respect? What does that even mean? You might as well treat a rock with respect. It has no feelings or awareness. My body doesnt know. Sure if you want to talk about doing something to ease people that know me's suffering that's a different kettle of fish.
Also why is digging a hole in the ground and and dumping me in it respectful? Why is putting me on exhibit not?

First of all the digging a hole and dumping you into it is the tradition of 99.9% of people in Ireland. So if you have an Irish body you can be 99.9% sure that burying them is treating their body with respect. Putting you in an exhibit would be very very unlikely to be what you would want to have done with your remains.

Treating a body with respect is allowing the deceased person one more bit of dignity in the disposal of their remains in the manner that they or their family would have wished. Its not a rock or bit of dirt its the last remains of a human being who not long before existed as a member of society. The reason people mourn and bury their people is because it greatly saddens them to lose someone close to them. Just because you cannot identify the person or find their family doesnt mean they wouldnt want their relative treated with the respect they themselves would give if they were able to do so. So to say "I cant find their relatives I'll do whatever I want with this guys body" is disrespectful both to the deceased and the family. Regardless of whether they are aware of it. Not being caught doesnt make defiling a corpse any less morally corrupt does it ? But yet thats what your trying to justify, the corpse doesnt know, the family doesnt know so whats wrong with digging up and defiling a corpse ?

What do you mean I don't care. I just said I did. I don't want my carcass lumped into the ground wasted when it could be put to use unless lumping it into the ground eases the suffering of people that after my death can give a SHIt because I cant. Why is lumping a carcass into the ground any more "respectful" btw? If you want to respect my body put it in one of those glass coffins in some cathedral type worshippy building. Or failing that a glass box in an exhibit.

You said your family can do whatever they want with you if it suits them and you dont mind being in an exhibition. The reason its more respectful it outlined above. And if your last wished was for that to be done with your body then thats fine but in this scenario we dont know so guessing that you want to be in an exhibit isnt a logical guess. And deciding that it doesnt matter because your not identified so you can be treated in any manner is making no attempt at all to treat the body with respect.

You call my logic fcuked up but logically why is it respectful to bury a body when no one knows the wishes of the prior owner of said carcass and no one knows any interested related party or their wishes for the use of the carcass? I think you're thinking emotionally rather than logically. Why is it logical to care what a dead person wanted in the first place. They won't have a clue what you do with their body, you can't upset them. You can upset friends and family certainly but in a case where they aren't around it's highly illogical to place any value on the wishes of the dead person.

Its fcuked up logic because your arguing that it doesnt matter what way these bodies are treated because they are not aware of it. Your trying to validate that by saying you personally dont mind if that happens to you knowing that the vast majority of others would mind. What about your parents or siblings ? Would you not think it wrong that their bodies would be put on view to make money just because they couldnt be identified ? While there may be family members still alive who never knew what happened to them ? Its an emotive issue so you cannot discount emotions when dealing with it. The logical option in this circumstance where the vast majority of people would want themselves and their loved ones treated with respect and their remains disposed of in a dignified manner is not to put them on display to make money.

IrishEyes19

seamus wrote: »

Dead people don't own anything. If she has no family, then ownership of the body passes to the state.

So as long as the Romanian state consented to her body being used in this way, I see no ethical problem.

Part of the aim of the exhibition is to challenge the traditional taboos around death, including things like this notion that dead people still have feelings.

my god, have we stooped that low in the world. Could the romanian state not have done the decent thing, paid for a simple burial plot and given the girl a respectable ending. Sick.

As for dead people having feelings. well I'll only know that when I'm dead. But I know for a fact as an ALIVE person right now. I would never want my body to be showcased after death. Rotten. Leave morals out of it for a second. Its horrid.

Doc

I have always had a problem with the use of human remains for public display. I don’t mind if consent has been given but if it has not then what right has anyone to do anything like this with the remains?

A number of years ago I visited the British museum and I believe they had the remains of an Iron age man complete with artifacts he was buried with on display. This man obviously had religious beliefs as he was buried in a ceremonial way with religious artifacts. What gives anyone the right to dig him up and place him on display?
Obviously how his body was buried had religious connotations for him and no mater what we believe now his beliefs should be respected and he should not be transported to London and hung behind a pain of glass for the entire world to see.

Unless consent is given by the person before they die no body should be used for public display in any way. I don’t care how long ago they died it’s just not right.

phasers

They should have just tossed her in a ditch

xzanti

I personally hate the thought of being put in the ground, or burned after I die

Travelling the World as part of an exhibition sounds like a bloody good alternative to me...

That's only because you don't understand the behaviour of the soul after death .

paddyandy wrote: »

That's only because you don't understand the behaviour of the soul after death .

neither do you, your guess is as valid as his

kylith

IrishEyes19 wrote: »

my god, have we stooped that low in the world. Could the romanian state not have done the decent thing, paid for a simple burial plot and given the girl a respectable ending. Sick.

No, they wouldn't do that. Burials aren't cheap. Coffins aren't cheap. Cemetary plots are definitely not cheap.

Unclaimed bodies are usually cremated, stuck in a plastic bag in a cardboard box and, afaik, put on a shelf and forgotten about.

al28283 wrote: »

neither do you, your guess is as valid as his

I do and there is plenty of scientific evidence on websites and utube apart altogether and nothing to do with religious traditions .Try googling around .You might be surprised and within 24 hrs i'll message a few on to you .I'm busy atm .

angry kitten

I think its also very convenient for governments to cheaply dispose of their unclaimed dead, if indeed not profit from supplying the bodies in the first place.

paddyandy wrote: »

I do and there is plenty of scientific evidence on websites and utube apart altogether and nothing to do with religious traditions .Try googling around .You might be surprised and within 24 hrs i'll message a few on to you .I'm busy atm .

Hard to tell if you're serious, anyone who claims they know facts about the soul is either a fool or a liar.

angry kitten

So far as I know, nobody has ever come back from the other side to tell us, except if you believe in Jesus. But his case was unique. So we'll find out one way or another sooner than most of us would like.

If i had all the answers boards.ie would never hear or read any of them .Those i have i keep to myself .

paddyandy wrote: »

If i had all the answers boards.ie would never hear or read any of them .Those i have i keep to myself .

you have no answers

al28283 wrote: »

you have no answers

I gave you the utube( near death experiences) but you were maybe afraid to watch or could'nt be bothered .

paddyandy wrote: »

I gave you the utube( near death experiences) but you were maybe afraid to watch or could'nt be bothered .

telling me to look up the topic on youtube is not providing scientific evidence of a soul. You have no answers, you know nothing. That much is painfully clear

al28283 wrote: »

telling me to look up the topic on youtube is not providing scientific evidence of a soul. You have no answers, you know nothing. That much is painfully clear

That is where the SCIENTIFIC IS .................U-TUBE ..

paddyandy wrote: »

That is where the SCIENTIFIC IS .................U-TUBE ..

like i said, you have no answers

Rocket19

seamus wrote: »

What's ethically suspect about looking at a dead body? Does this mean that wakes and open coffins are "morbid" and "ethically suspect"?

Nonsense. Everybody knows that there's a massive difference between seeing a model on a screen and seeing the actual thing. Otherwise we wouldn't bother going abroad, we'd just look at the pictures online.

We've been tearing cadavers apart and presenting the pieces in museums and galleries for centuries. How is this any different?

This presents aspects of the human body in a way that we could never otherwise see them. Throw off your prudish shackles and satisfy your curiosity.

I'm sorry, but what you've written has kinda irritated me.

The main factors which should be taken into consideration by anyone putting human remains on display is 1) to make sure it doesn't go against the wishes of the dead (and yes, this still matter even though they're dead), 2) that it presents them in a dignified and respectful manner and, 3) that the remains aren't pushed into the service of alien interests.
Its very possible that the Bodies exhibition has violated all three. To me, this is a 'freak show', and true exploitation. It is not, in my opinion, educational in it's sole purpose and intention.

You show a real ignorance about how museums display human remains. Firstly, the museum can only display human remains if doing so will create a contribution to a certain interpretation. Think of the Bog Bodies here in Dublin, for example. They are set within a Bronze Age context, and you won't come across them unawares. They're laid in such a way that you must walk within a circular 'maze' type structure to see them. They're not intended to shock or scare, and when you walk in, you're very aware you're coming across humans remains. Just because they're anonymous and dead, doesn't make them any less human.

Call me crazy, but the idea of being in a room with a bunch of shrieking children, pointing and laughing at dead bodies playing rugby and whatnot, just isn't appealing to me.

Rocket19 wrote: »

just isn't appealing to me.

That seems to be the basis of your whole argument. You find them undignified but that is merely your opinion and might not be the same as others

Rocket19 wrote: »

To me, this is a 'freak show'

To me, it isn't.

Rocket19 wrote: »

It is not, in my opinion, educational in it's sole purpose and intention.

Perhaps not solely but I found it very educational, and perhaps many others feel the same. Maybe it will spark an interest in the himan body for many kids who will go on to become doctors

Rocket19 wrote: »

the museum can only display human remains if doing so will create a contribution to a certain interpretation

This exhibit shows shows bodies doing everyday modern things. Why is this any less valid that showing bronze age bog bodies?

Rocket19 wrote: »

you won't come across them unawares

the same goes for this exhibit at an exhibition called Bodies you are unlikely to come across the bodies unawares.

Rocket19 wrote: »

They're not intended to shock or scare

nothing shocking or scary about the Bodies exhibit

Rocket19 wrote: »

you're very aware you're coming across humans remains

Again, its called the Bodies exhibit, it is an exhibition of human bodies. What did you think you were going to see

Rocket19 wrote: »

Call me crazy, but the idea of being in a room with a bunch of shrieking children, pointing and laughing at dead bodies playing rugby and whatnot, just isn't appealing to me.

What's the difference between this and going to a history museum during the week with 30 schoolchildren pointing and laughing at dead bodies doing other things

There are Nihilists on this thread and the dignity of the specious whether living or dead troubles them greatly They need to belittle and trivialise .The sense of the sacred anything is a thorn in their sides .

Rocket19

al28283 wrote: »

That seems to be the basis of your whole argument. You find them undignified but that is merely your opinion and might not be the same as others

To me, it isn't.

Perhaps not solely but I found it very educational, and perhaps many others feel the same. Maybe it will spark an interest in the himan body for many kids who will go on to become doctors

This exhibit shows shows bodies doing everyday modern things. Why is this any less valid that showing bronze age bog bodies?

the same goes for this exhibit at an exhibition called Bodies you are unlikely to come across the bodies unawares.

nothing shocking or scary about the Bodies exhibit

Again, its called the Bodies exhibit, it is an exhibition of human bodies. What did you think you were going to see

What's the difference between this and going to a history museum during the week with 30 schoolchildren pointing and laughing at dead bodies doing other things

I really do understand your points. And I get that the whole "respect for the dead" thing is a relatively new phenomenon. At the same time though, I just don't think that the Bodies exhibition is ethical. And yes, that's just my opinion, but it's based on things I've read and learned, i'm not just randomly saying it.

Also, another thing I want to point out, is that I think that the idea of the bodies exhibition is really, really interesting - actually seeing the bodies I mean. I have no squemishness about seeing dead bodies or anything, but the thing I'm concerned with are ethics about how the bodies are sourced, how the bodies are being displayed, and if they'd even want this in the first place. I can't just disregard these things because the display is cool or exciting or whatever.

Also, I don't think my statement about musems preserving the dignity of the dead is just my "opinion". Most museums go to great lengths to preserve the dignity of the dead as much as possible, this is a fact. I don't think the Bodies exhibition have even considered it. Seems to be money, money, money under the guise of education.

28283 What a load of rubbish you post, Rocket is quite correct on most of his points .

Rocket19 wrote: »

Also, I don't think my statement about musems preserving the dignity of the dead is just my "opinion". Most museums go to great lengths to preserve the dignity of the dead as much as possible, this is a fact.

This I can understand but I think one of the main draws of this exhibit is that these bodies are not presented as a museum would present them, they are shown doing everyday things that most of us can relate to, so when people look at them they are not some distant, bronze age caricatures but something people can identify with.