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Luas security. Who vets these guys?

AskMyChocolate

I would be particularly interested in hearing Makikomi's and other doorstaff/bouncers' opinions on this.

I was coming home on the Luas tonight and I got talking to a bunch of lads who were on their way in to CFJ's. They couldn't have been a nicer bunch of lads. Two from Tipperary, two from Kildare.

They were drinking a can but not bothering anyone. Next thing, these two black-clad thugs started treating them in the way that some knackers should be treated.

They grabbed their cans and threw them off the Luas. I said to them "There's no need for that". They looked at me, and I swear, if it wasn't for the fact that I'm a middle-aged man, they'd have thrown me off too.

The standard of security in this state, and the quality of security guards is slipping badly. Whatever happened to the bouncers who had nothing to prove, didn't have a chip on their shoulder about being turned downed by the guards/army, and used to be capable of cuddling lads out of a pub before trying to start a fight?

Choco

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AskMyChocolate

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Nah, the second you turn around at least one of them has another can open. That is pretty much a certainty.

This way the lads spend a few minutes at the Luas stop feeling like ****ing spanners and on the next one they behave.

Like smacking a bold dog on the nose, lesson learned.

In all honesty, I would say that is how it probably panned out. As I said, I was only going to Ranelagh, and they were only babies up from the country. There was no need to smack them that hard IMO.

Aah shur, it won't do them any harm, please God.

As I said in an earlier post; I just hope it doesn't give them a distaste for Dublin. God knows, we've always been made welcome any time we venture outside the pale.:)

Choco

Lollipops23

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

As I said in an earlier post; I just hope it doesn't give them a distaste for Dublin. God knows, we've always been made welcome any time we venture outside the pale.:)

Choco

Ah sure we got chucked off a tram in Prague over a genuine misunderstanding. Still loved it and the other 99% of the locals were only lovely to us

Cee-Jay-Cee

Mammanabammana wrote: »

Translation; despite signs at every LUAS stop saying that drinking alcohol on the LUAS is not allowed, a few lads got on the LUAS, one drinking alcohol. The LUAS security did what they're paid to do by removing the lads from the tram. They didn't go "Ah sure you're alright lads, it's only the one, keep it down there now", they did the job in hand in a brisk and efficient manner. They're not paid to make judgement calls, they're paid to do their job.

Would that be a fair account of what happened, OP? Or were they unnecessarily violent, abusive, aggressive (physically or verbally) or anything else that merits calling them "black clad thugs"?

Totally agree, theres far too much pandering to people in case theyre offended or their feelings hurt. If theyre breaking the rules or laws then they should be dealt with accordingly.

I know there can be some very over zealous security guards but it doesnt seem so in this case.

smodgley

Like smacking a bold dog on the nose, lesson learned.[/QUOTE]

dont smack dogs on the nose:p

smash

I watched 2 of these guys pick up a drunk teenager, lift him off the luas and onto a bench, then get back on and leave him there. The kid was only around 15.

Dyr

I can only wish that we had such black clad former spetznaz agents working on dublin bus. The junkie body count would be huge

Also, don't drink on public transport. Or at least if you do, don't moan when you're kicked off.

AskMyChocolate

MyKeyG wrote: »

Nobody is saying the security guys shouldn't have acted so your point is moot. It's the manner in which they acted is the issue here. Minor transgression is no call to violence. Should they have been drinking? No. Do they deserve illegal assault? Absolutely not!

I once had a Luas inspector grab me by the arm and pull me back because he thought I was trying to do a bunk by getting off while he was getting on. It just happened to be my stop and I did have a ticket. Some if not most of these guys are nothing more than ignorant poorly trained gorillas on a power trip.

Bit harsh, but it should be a trade, not a min wage job. They tend to have to deal with more than the average Garda in a night. They should be properly trained and properly recompensed/remunerated IMHO.

Choco

efb

I love them! Chizzled jawed ripped eastern European hunks laying the smack down- I salute them every time ;-)

ArthurG

Very little comment on how other passengers may have felt about this.

Whilst I am am not too bothered by idiots on public transport (try to ignore them, hopefully I/they will get off soon), when I see people drinking on the bus/luas it tends to make me very nervous. Nice lads/ladies or not, when I see tinnies cracked open there's always a suggesiton of potential trouble.

Now I'm a 6'4" tall fairly broad bloke. How would elderly people / women / kids travelling alone etc feel about this?. The rules clearly state "no drinking" and I 100% support security enforcing it. Its only a shame they don't do so more rigorously as far as I'm concerned. Its public transport after all, not your private vehicle in which you can do as you please.

stovelid

Rule of thumb:

99% of times security staff are called power trippers, they have simply being enforcing rules that patrons are breaking, more often than not to do with alcohol.

Said patrons are rarely older than mid twenties.

Said patrons are usually moaning twats

AskMyChocolate

Sinfonia wrote: »

Before this all goes any further, could AMC please describe what literally happened, because to say that they were 'thrown' off the Luas is obviously using the term figuratively (I hope!), and as a result many posters are inventing the circumstances to suit their own arguments.

Sorry chief, little bit hazy in my own mind, so maybe I'm being a little harsh on the security staff. But, they threw three lads out, they'd ditched their cans, and they wouldn't let them back on despite the fact that they knew they were all up from the country on a weekend out. Not a bit of trouble out of any of them.

As I said, I was getting off in Ranelagh, so I just advised the two lads who were left on, to ring them, and tell them to get the next Luas and meet up in Harcourt Street, and no harm done.

I was drunk myself btw, so I wouldn't listen to a word I have been saying.

smash

stovelid wrote: »

Rule of thumb:

99% of times security staff are called power trippers, they have simply being enforcing rules that patrons are breaking, more often than not to do with alcohol.

Said patrons are rarely older than mid twenties.

Said patrons are usually moaning twats

Said power trippers are usually aggressive scumbags in their own right. They want to enforce a rule, then they ask people to hand over their drink and they dispose of it... you know, like the Garda do. They have no right or power to forcefully remove someone, it's actually assault.

AskMyChocolate

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Once again, where is the aggressive and intimidating behaviour described?

OP says they took the cans and threw them off the Luas. He says they gave him "a look".

When i was a bouncer i reckon 99% of people who walked past me on any given night were feeling somewhat intimidated, i reckon if i looked at them with anything other than a smile they felt directly intimidated. Its a body language thing.

No disrespect to the OP...but if i have been working all day and i have to deal with this kind of trivial **** because some lads lack the brains to do what a simple sign says and i have to chuck them off and I'm probably sick of the situation the second it's over, i don't need some random dude deciding that what he saw was not game ball...so i'm gonna give a tired and exasperated look that basically says "ah pal, sit down and shut up"...mainly because i'm human.

Here is the thing about security and the doing thereof, in any circumstances anywhere on the planet...the second you have to actually do your job, especially for the small stuff like this that still needs doing...you cannot win in the eyes of the public. The second you get involved you are a power tripping monkey with no intelligence...as opposed to being exactly what the person who is judging you is...just a guy who has to do his job.

If OP wants to give more details then i'll revise my opinion of the situation...but for now i am going with what i know to be true most of the time and that is that he felt intimidated rather than he actually was intimidated.[/QUOTE]

Agree with most of your post but this bit made me smile. I spent eleven years behind the bar.

I spent two (naive) years in Brixton where people were trying to intimidate me but I just didn't get it.

They thought I was hard, when it was simple ignorance.:):pac:

Winner alright, Winner alright.:D

Choco

Victor

smash wrote: »

Said power trippers are usually aggressive scumbags in their own right. They want to enforce a rule, then they ask people to hand over their drink and they dispose of it... you know, like the Garda do. They have no right or power to forcefully remove someone, it's actually assault.

Has the OP actually mentioned "forcefully remove"?

Prohibited acts

5. (1) A person shall not on a light rail vehicle or a light railway –

...

(i) be intoxicated (within the meaning of section 4 of the Public Order Act 1994 (No. 2 of 1994)) or be in possession of any open bottle or container of intoxicating liquor or a controlled drug (within the meaning of section 2 of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1977 ( No. 12 of 1977 )),

...

Restriction on use

11. (1) A passenger reasonably suspected by an authorised person of contravening or attempting to contravene any of these Bye-laws shall leave a light railway as soon as possible if asked to do so by an authorised person.

...

Anybody is allowed remove someone from their property.

smash

Victor wrote: »

Has the OP actually mentioned "forcefully remove"?

No, but I was making a point.

Victor wrote: »

Anybody is allowed remove someone from their property.

Di you read what you posted? "shall leave a light railway as soon as possible if asked to do so by an authorised person"

If they refuse to leave then the Garda must be notified because these guys can't forcefully remove you.

BigDuffman

This will slide into the usual bouncer bashing thread. STT are doing a fantastic job on the Dart and Luas. Anyone that remembers the scum that used to run amock and terrorize the Northside dart lines around harmonstown / killbarrack will attest to this. There is a zero tolerance policy which IMO is the only policy, I'm a respectable looking chap as are my mates, I cracked open a can on the way into town a while and when the lads came around we were told to get rid of cans or get off, we shouldn't of been doing it so I had no problem in complying.

Whilst my friends and myself were not going to be intimidating or up to any knackerish nonsense. I am glad they did what they did. As I can imagine how some people can get intimidated of large groups of lads drinking cans. I saw them run a load of fare dodging knackers who were smoking and throwing empty cans down a carriage on the very same train.

If they differentiated between different socio-economic groups they would have some bleeding heart crusty giving out about discrimination and demand that they initiate a "hugaknacker" scheme.

The lads didn't offer hugs or weren't saying pretty please...but thats not what they are there for.

I worked for 6/7 years on the door whilst I was trying to work my way through college. I have met all manner of characters whilst working in the security industry. Some absolute w@nkers and power trippers and some pure gentlemen, but the amount of arseholes I encountered pales in significance to the amount of them I now deal with in my cushy desk job. Pencil necked control freaks who rule offices / fifedoms with an iron key board. Give me a security crew any day, at least you know that they have each others backs

Regarding the blanket term of "power triper". That is simply not true. I could say the same thing about a bar man who serves women who have their tits out at bar, or a bank manager!

It takes a certain skill set to be an effective security worker. Most of these guys are just looking to make a living. Working unsociable hours, in unpleaseant conditions and dealing with the dregs of society in more often than not a drunken state for small amount of money, getting spat at, assaulted and abused as part of a daily routine...the majority of people would run a mile before taking up this type of job.

STT's lads are mostly of ex millitary background and tend to be large rough tough characters. All of whom are highly vetted by the company, the PSA and Gardai. More checks put in place than is done against the person sitting next to you in your office.

At the risk of romanticizing it too much I'll quote Mr Orwell. "sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Jev/N

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Sorry chief, little bit hazy in my own mind, so maybe I'm being a little harsh on the security staff. But, they threw three lads out, they'd ditched their cans, and they wouldn't let them back on despite the fact that they knew they were all up from the country on a weekend out. Not a bit of trouble out of any of them.

Define "threw"?

And how were the security to know that "they were all up from the country on a weekend out"? It's not their job to be finding out what they are doing for the weekend, where they are from or whatever, it's their job to enforce the rules and that's what they did.

I take the Luas a lot, particularly late at night, but out of concern for fellow passengers, rules, etc. I've never drank on the luas, no matter how drunk already - it's common decency.

HellFireClub

Mammanabammana wrote: »

Translation; despite signs at every LUAS stop saying that drinking alcohol on the LUAS is not allowed, a few lads got on the LUAS, one drinking alcohol. The LUAS security did what they're paid to do by removing the lads from the tram. They didn't go "Ah sure you're alright lads, it's only the one, keep it down there now", they did the job in hand in a brisk and efficient manner. They're not paid to make judgement calls, they're paid to do their job.

Would that be a fair account of what happened, OP? Or were they unnecessarily violent, abusive, aggressive (physically or verbally) or anything else that merits calling them "black clad thugs"?

Nicely put. The problem of course is that do these private security people have a legal right to take property off you? I'm all for the law being upheld, but only by properly authorised and accountable GARDAI.

Mr. Presentable

What is "Smart club attire"?

Or have Mensa a uniform now?

smash

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

What is "Smart club attire"?

No glow sticks or whistles.

tiernanobrien

as a regular drinker on the luas i think those lads do a great job. They've kicked me off plenty of times but they usually leave my can with me and let me finish it on the platform. Frankly if they did bin it on me that wouldnt bother me in the slightest!
Also, im sure if you hopped onto the luas and it stank of booze and had empty cans and bottles rolling on the floor you'd be pissed off! They've no choice but to be firm with everyone on this... If you want to enjoy a can on public transport safely use the bus!

Stovepipe

Hi all,
A friend of mine is a senior man at the LUAS and can't praise the STT guys enough. They and the normal human being passengers,put up with a serious amount of antisocial behaviour from toerags, especially on the Red Line, including drinking, smoking, urinating and defecating, throwing of objects, fighting, assaulting other passengers and LUAS staff, vandalism, drug abuse and scattering of drug paraphernalia, vomiting, thefts (attempted and actual) and gang fights. Not that long ago, one of them was beaten up by a gang of seven toerags after he and another STT man had put off two scum for fighting. So they are making the LUAS safe to use for regular humans.It's unfortunate if they are a bit rough-edged with the odd normal person, but it's an acceptable penalty, especially if the guy opened a can in spite of dozens of warning signs all over the place.
My friend says that the STT are mostly ex-Military or police.

regards
Stovepipe

smash

tiernanobrien wrote: »

as a regular drinker on the luas i think those lads do a great job. They've kicked me off plenty of times but they usually leave my can with me and let me finish it on the platform.

You seem like an upstanding citizen with a lot to contribute to society.

MysticalRain

The STT guys never appear to be around whenever I see junkies begging at Luas ticketing machines.

4leto

Doesn't it suck when security staff do their job.

I really don't know what the OP is complaining about, you are not allowed to drink on the luas fullstop.

If they just ignored them drinking THEN they would not have been doing their job.

So I say fair play to the security staff.

StephenHendry

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Lost in translation, could have a bit to do with it. Btw, as a barman, I would always be on the side of the bouncers/security staff, it's just, that, all they had to do ,was to say "Keep them hidden lads, or put them back in your bags" and they didn't say it.

The point of the thread was that it would never have happened, never mind escalated, if it wasn't for the Luas staff.

The lads were bothering no-one and would have been off in two minutes with no-one worrying or in a lot of cases being any the wiser that they wre having a drink.

As me Dad used to say, "Get over heavy ground as light as you can"

Just my opinion

Choco

from reading this OP it sounds like the Luas security guys didnt display any common sense whatsoever , they could have warned them to put away the cans, i mean surely they know a group who are trouble makers/drunks from those who are not. i know rules are rules but the luas guys could have showed a bit of cop on. i oftern drink a few cans on the train and i was never thrown off the train

ebbsy

MysticalRain wrote: »

The STT guys never appear to be around whenever I see junkies begging at Luas ticketing machines.

Those junkies begging at the Abbey Street should be given a good thrashing.

4leto

StephenHendry wrote: »

from reading this OP it sounds like the Luas security guys didnt display any common sense whatsoever , they could have warned them to put away the cans, i mean surely they know a group who are trouble makers/drunks from those who are not. i know rules are rules but the luas guys could have showed a bit of cop on. i oftern drink a few cans on the train and i was never thrown off the train

So they have to ignore the rules if it happens to be you who is breaking them.

billymitchell

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

...... Next thing, these two black-clad thugs started treating them in the way that some knackers should be treated..........

Care to expand on this a bit??

CiaranC

billymitchell wrote: »

Care to expand on this a bit??

I think what he means is that if the lads are wearing sportswear and are from Tallaght, Drimnagh or Fatima they deserve a hiding, but these upstanding country fellas should be let do what they like.