Your right to an Abortion

gargleblaster wrote: »

Really? Do you really still not realize that his apparently arbitrary limits are not so different from yours? Someone who believes that life begins at conception could challenge you this way about why you draw the line at implantation, but what is the point?

It's an extremely complex issue, fraught with emotion. The limits have to be set with input from the public as well as medical experts, not a few posters on a message board.

We've already established that you would condone these "murders", it is only a matter now of coming to an agreement on limits.

The limits have been set, abortion(on demand etc) is, thankfully, illegal in this country.

I know someone could challenge me on my position, its one I am not entirely comfortable with, but if I were to say that fertilization was the point things such as IVF would be illegal.

As I said, it is a compromise.

Suaimhneach wrote: »

...if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, under our current laws she is not entitled to an abortion, even if that rape consititutes incest.

We all know that there is a steady stream of women who go abroad each year to have the abortion that is denied to them under Irish law. I know by the private nature of the act it is impossible to ascertain exactly how many but there are reasonable estimates of the number.

AbortionIreland.org wrote:

Some 6,673 women gave Irish addresses to abortion clinics in Britain during 2001, and the figure dropped to 4,422 in 2009. At least 12 women leave Ireland every day to seek clandestine abortions.
There are no figures available for the amount of women resident in Ireland who give false addresses, or who travel to clinics in the Netherlands or Spain.

It seems to run into thousands. Anybody care to hazard a guess at how many of these terminations are the direct result of rape? Would it even be 10% of the total? I don't think it would. What is the justification of terminating the vast majority of these pregnancies? To be quite blunt I think the rape card is just being played to get abortion legalised so that it can become just another form of contraception.

AbortionIreland.org wrote:

IN OCTOBER last year the Irish Medicines Board (IMB) reported that it seized 1,216 abortion pills being imported into Ireland in 2009. In 2008, only 48 pills were seized. It looked like a real challenge to the State’s abortion laws was emerging – could such huge numbers really be trying to get around our strict laws by ordering these pills online?
The media asked whether Irish women, no longer able to afford to travel to the UK for a termination, were now beginning to self-abort out of financial desperation.
Although some reports gave the impression there were 1,216 individual packages, the breakdown is less dramatic. There were 62 consignments: 50 addressed to women and, interestingly, 12 to men. That some were bulk supplies suggests an abortion pill black market is operating in Ireland.

It would appear that the demand for abortions is increasing despite the availability of contraception. I will acknowledge that no form of contraception is 100% perfect but abortion is now being seen as just another form of contraception.

Let's have a little honesty here. Most abortions are purely lifestyle choices and have little or nothing to do either with rape or directly with the health of the mother.

I'm trying to work out how this argument about abortion on demand, could possibly fit into the kind of a discussion that any couple might have before there was any pregnancy...

Say the views that are being presented on here, which are pretty much all pro-abortion.

If you are in a long term relationship where the possibilities are there for life long commitment, and possibly a family, and most lads I know, like myself, would love a family and to have kids, how on earth do people who are so obviously pro-abortion under any circumstances or indeed advocate an abortion under possibly no circumstances at all, how do you find men who can run with something that as far as I can see, would be abhorent to an awful lot of men, men I might add who just might end up being roped into this whole argument some day if you ever got pregnant?

Please do not come back with an accusation here that I'm trolling. If I was seeing a girl with the possibility that it was going to get serious, I'd need to know what her view on these kind of things was, and if I was hearing back, (after enquiring), that, "it's my body and I'll do what I like with it", I wouldn't consider that person to be a potential partner for me, and this I believe is is true for a lot of men or at least the fairly normal Joe's that I know...

Let's have a little honesty here. Most abortions are purely lifestyle choices and have little or nothing to do either with rape or directly with the health of the mother.

Thats the harsh truth.

The OP started out with the usual, "women who are raped and even those who are pregnant through incest are forced to carry babies"...

But when you scratch below the surface, you see that they are trying to introduce abortion on demand, by trying to place the argument on the tiny number of women who end up pregnant after a rape or pregnant due to incest.

Why not just be honest and say that you want abortion for any reason or for no reason at all, why all the lies and misinformation about the tiny number of women who might need an abortion based on a pregnancy caused by rape or incest?

lace

HellFireClub wrote: »

If I was seeing a girl with the possibility that it was going to get serious, I'd need to know what her view on these kind of things was, and if I was hearing back, (after enquiring), that, "it's my body and I'll do what I like with it", I wouldn't consider that person to be a potential partner for me, and this I believe is is true for a lot of men or at least the fairly normal Joe's that I know...

Most men I've spoken to about the topic feel that it's a service that needs to br provided. I can understand men in committed relationships wanting there to be a discussion about the topic if they're interested in having children but not all men are. Not everyone is at a stage in their life where children are on the cards.

As for you not wanting a partner who views her body as her own - good luck! I can't imagine many women nowadays being too happy about their partner having such a posessive view of their body. Does, say, a lifesaving historectomy qualify as one of "these kinds of things" to you?

gargleblaster

A lifestyle choice? That is breathtakingly ignorant.

As for the long term serious relationship scenario, nice framing. I only wish we could determine how many of those 'lifestyle choice trips' were paid for in part if not entirely by the father.

As a man I would be devastated if a girl I got pregnant got an abortion. Even though I would be willing to be a single father etc, there would be nothing I could do to stop her from getting my child killed.

lace wrote: »

Most men I've spoken to about the topic feel that it's a service that needs to br provided. I can understand men in committed relationships wanting there to be a discussion about the topic if they're interested in having children but not all men are. Not everyone is at a stage in their life where children are on the cards.

As for you not wanting a partner who views her body as her own - good luck! I can't imagine many women nowadays being too happy about their partner having such a posessive view of their body. Does, say, a lifesaving historectomy qualify as one of "these kinds of things" to you?

Well I'm in my 30's and I don't know any of my own mates in long term relationships (most but not all are), who would be at ease with a woman who is in her 30's and still banging on about, "it's my body my choice"...

I don't personally know one person in my life who wouldn't consider a pregnancy a blessing.

I'm just making the point where I can't understand who women who have such an overt and expressive view of abortion on demand, find men to have relationships with, because the lads I know who are out there either in committed relationships or on the dating scene, they would run a MILE from the kind of "me, me, me, me, me" mentality that I'm seeing on here, because these guys want to settle down at some stage and have kids and the last thing they would want I imagine is someone with strong views in this area.

In one case I know of, a girl in a long term relationship exercised her right to go to the UK for an abortion, she didn't tell her boyfriend (a mate of mine), before she went but she told him when she came back, and the reason she wanted an abortion was because she didn't want the shame of telling her mother that she was pregnant?!?

So much for relagious freedom... So anyway, she had her abortion and the relationship ended soonafter, but those of us who were mates of this guy swore we would never ever end up in a situation such as that, because this girl had pro-abortion sentiments all along...

[Deleted User]

Magic Beans wrote: »

Let's have a little honesty here. Most abortions are purely lifestyle choices and have little or nothing to do either with rape or directly with the health of the mother.

I think this is the problem. People thinking that the mother's role is to either go abroad for an abortion or stay and have the child. Giving birth isn't just a choice. It is a horrifically (for most women, some deal better with it) painful experience, has life-threatening risks, and takes 9 months. A woman's body is never the same after having a child, and I'm not talking looks. Some women are left unable to have sex, incontinent, or there could be worse complications. During some births there just isn't enough room for the baby to come out and an incision has to be made in the womans vagina, sometimes reaching from the vagina all the way to the anus. Sometimes vaginal tears occur.

Let's imagine for a second that a girl gets pregnant. Let's say she used condoms + the oral contraceptive pill, but accidents happen. Let's say she's 16. Let's say her life (from a health perspective) is not under immediate risk from pregnancy (I say immediate because as above, there are always risks). Let's say she even hasn't been raped. So she has what some would call no excuse. What Magic Beans would call a "lifestyle choice". And she chooses abortion. Because she knows she can't care for a child. She would be thrown out of her house by her parents and would have to go through the pregnancy alone. She would have to get a job and work through her pregnancy for minimum wage to try to survive. And if she got through the nine months, of morning sickness and weak bladder she would then have to go through giving birth. Then after birth, left changed forever, she would have to give the baby away. After all that. For something she never wanted. And then walk out of the hospital and try and live a life? Try and sit the Leaving Cert in a few years maybe? Her life would be ruined, and she would have been forced to do it by the state. By "pro-lifers".

lace wrote: »

Most men I've spoken to about the topic feel that it's a service that needs to br provided. I can understand men in committed relationships wanting there to be a discussion about the topic if they're interested in having children but not all men are.

Most men who are not pro-abortion will back away from debate with pro-abortion female friends in the interests of preserving the friendship. Don't take their desire to avoid confrontation as support for abortion. If you don't realise that already... wel there's no way you're going to accept it being said here.

lace wrote: »

Not everyone is at a stage in their life where children are on the cards.

That is the nub of the whole argument exposed to the light of day. "A child would be inconvenient just now." That's about it really.

lace wrote: »

As for you not wanting a partner who views her body as her own - good luck! I can't imagine many women nowadays being too happy about their partner having such a posessive view of their body. Does, say, a lifesaving historectomy qualify as one of "these kinds of things" to you?

Good luck with finding a man who will truly be happy with your unilateral power to terminate his children. There are not many of them out there.

Stop trying to play the medical emergancy. A life saving hyterectomy is not an abortion. It is a distinct medical procedure. A dreadfully sad thing for any woman to have to go through. Don't use a genuine medical tragedy to mask the desire to legitimise abortion on demand.

true-or-false wrote: »

I think this is the problem. People thinking that the mother's role is to either go abroad for an abortion or stay and have the child. Giving birth isn't just a choice. It is a horrifically (for most women, some deal better with it) painful experience, has life-threatening risks, and takes 9 months. A woman's body is never the same after having a child, and I'm not talking looks. Some women are left unable to have sex, incontinent, or there could be worse complications. During some births there just isn't enough room for the baby to come out and an incision has to be made in the womans vagina, sometimes reaching from the vagina all the way to the anus. Sometimes vaginal tears occur.

Would you get up out of that. I know loads of mothers and NONE of them have any issues with having sex or incontinence... Yes there can be complications but none of them that i can see that stop the mothers I know wanting to have 2nd, 3rd and 4th kids. Yet you claim the same things that happen some women are used to justify abortions?!?

wild_cat

HellFireClub wrote: »

I'm just making the point where I can't understand who women who have such an overt and expressive view of abortion on demand, find men to have relationships with, because the lads I know who are out there either in committed relationships or on the dating scene, they would run a MILE from the kind of "me, me, me, me, me" mentality that I'm seeing on here, because these guys want to settle down at some stage and have kids and the last thing they would want I imagine is someone with strong views in this area.

Oh your god.

Is this from the same school of thought that women who don't have children are selfish?

Once you get outside the gates of the parish hall there's an even bigger dating scene.

iguana

micayla wrote: »

Won't be able to make the counter rally due to work but best of luck! What really gets me is when they display those horrible images at their rallies and protests on O'Connell St. It's bad enough that women have to go through this experience with very little support in this country but to have to walk down the street on a Saturday afternoon and be reminded of what they've gone through and made to feel guilty really p***** me off:mad:

I'd imagine the kind of people who carry those posters would be happy if they cause upset to women who have had abortions. The mindset would be forcing the selfish, murdering harlot to look at what she has done. However those signs are usually lies as those images are quite rarely of aborted foetuses, they are much, much more usually photo's of the remains of a miscarriage.

And the sad fact is that hundreds of thousands of women in this country have had at least one miscarriage. As many as 1 in 3 women will miscarry at some point in their lives. But these "pro-life" idiots couldn't give a toss about what impact these images are having on the men and women who have lost their very much loved pregnancies. People who are grieving the loss of their potential baby, many of whom have looked at and grieved over the physical remains and really don't need to see images of other such remains when they are trying to get on with their lives.

I get why people are opposed to abortion, I understand (and even respect) where they are coming from, in the exact same way that I understand and respect the feelings of vegetarians and vegans who believe meat is murder and dairy farming is an abuse. But I don't agree with them and I don't agree that they have the right to push those beliefs on other people and they certainly don't have the right to interfere with anyone else's sovereign right to govern their own body.

true-or-false wrote: »

I think this is the problem. People thinking that the mother's role is to either go abroad for an abortion or stay and have the child. Giving birth isn't just a choice. It is a horrifically (for most women, some deal better with it) painful experience, has life-threatening risks, and takes 9 months. A woman's body is never the same after having a child, and I'm not talking looks. Some women are left unable to have sex, incontinent, or there could be worse complications. During some births there just isn't enough room for the baby to come out and an incision has to be made in the womans vagina, sometimes reaching from the vagina all the way to the anus. Sometimes vaginal tears occur.

Let's imagine for a second that a girl gets pregnant. Let's say she used condoms + the oral contraceptive pill, but accidents happen. Let's say she's 16. Let's say her life (from a health perspective) is not under immediate risk from pregnancy (I say immediate because as above, there are always risks). Let's say she even hasn't been raped. So she has what some would call no excuse. What Magic Beans would call a "lifestyle choice". And she chooses abortion. Because she knows she can't care for a child. She would be thrown out of her house by her parents and would have to go through the pregnancy alone. She would have to get a job and work through her pregnancy for minimum wage to try to survive. And if she got through the nine months, of morning sickness and weak bladder she would then have to go through giving birth. Then after birth, left changed forever, she would have to give the baby away. After all that. For something she never wanted. And then walk out of the hospital and try and live a life? Try and sit the Leaving Cert in a few years maybe? Her life would be ruined, and she would have been forced to do it by the state. By "pro-lifers".

Thats just tough luck for her isnt it?

Getting pregnant and having a child at a young age is not the end of the world, it doesnt "ruin" a life.

I know quite a few young singe mothers who have done very well for themselves. There is very little reason why in todays world single mothers cannot be successful and live a full life. If the child is put up for adoption there is no reason whatsoever that the girl couldnt go back to school or whatever.

It doesn't justify killing the totally innocent child.

true-or-false wrote: »

Her life would be ruined, and she would have been forced to do it by the state. By "pro-lifers".

It's always someone else's fault isn't it?

In the scanario above, nobody forced her into a conception situation. She did it herself. We all make choices, sometimes the choices we make go against us but we have to live with them and get on with life.

Ickle Magoo

Yes, we all have choice - one of those choices is abortion. Well spotted.

wild_cat

I'm just going to leave this thread here. It'll be legal here sooner than you think. A referendum will have to take place soon and ye'll be surprised how much the favour will swing to the pro choice side.

I do believe there was a poll over in after hours about this a while ago and an over whelming majority polled in favour of it. I know boards doesn't represent the public at large but the figures we're surprising and even when the big market research agencies are polling for elections they only poll 1000 people in most cases.

[Deleted User]

HellFireClub wrote: »

Would you get up out of that. I know loads of mothers and NONE of them have any issues with having sex or incontinence... Yes there can be complications but none of them that i can see that stop the mothers I know wanting to have 2nd, 3rd and 4th kids. Yet you claim the same things that happen some women are used to justify abortions?!?

Sex issues aren't common. Incontinence isn't common. I didn't say they were a certainty. I said some women. It's unlikely that my house would get burgled if I left the door to my house unlocked, but I lock it - because if something is a possibility, you need to consider it before taking an action. Lots of mothers have more than one child, but that's my point - being pregnant doesn't make you a loving mother.

In my opinion, having a child can/should only happen under two circumstances:
1) You want to be a mother. This requires love, even the unexpected kind will do. Being forced to give birth to a child you wanted to abort will not fit into this category.
2) You decide to have a child for a reason you care about, even though you don't want to be a mother (eg. surrogacy or getting accidentally pregnant but wanting to follow through and give it up for adoption because you don't agree with abortion)

In either circumstance, you need to have to want to have a child. I personally don't believe that any person should be forced into something like that.

iguana wrote: »

I'd imagine the kind of people who carry those posters would be happy if they cause upset to women who have had abortions. The mindset would be forcing the selfish, murdering harlot to look at what she has done. However those signs are usually lies as those images are quite rarely of aborted foetuses, they are much, much more usually photo's of the remains of a miscarriage.

And the sad fact is that hundreds of thousands of women in this country have had at least one miscarriage. As many as 1 in 3 women will miscarry at some point in their lives. But these "pro-life" idiots couldn't give a toss about what impact these images are having on the men and women who have lost their very much loved pregnancies. People who are grieving the loss of their potential baby, many of whom have looked at and grieved over the physical remains and really don't need to see images of other such remains when they are trying to get on with their lives.

I get why people are opposed to abortion, I understand (and even respect) where they are coming from, in the exact same way that I understand and respect the feelings of vegetarians and vegans who believe meat is murder and dairy farming is an abuse. But I don't agree with them and I don't agree that they have the right to push those beliefs on other people and they certainly don't have the right to interfere with anyone else's sovereign right to govern their own body.

This isnt a tattoo or a piercing we are talking about, this is the termination of a life, it isnt all about the woman.

iguana

wild_cat wrote: »

I'm just going to leave this thread here. It'll be legal here sooner than you think. A referendum will have to take place soon and ye'll be surprised how much the favour will swing to the pro choice side.

The problem is that we keep on having referendums but for the most part the referendums are actually about tightening up the current anti-abortion legislation, not liberalising it. Referendums which keep on losing. The few times we have had referendums to liberalise the laws, to ensure the right to travel and full medical information, we have voted in favour. However the government didn't like it so just ignored the constitutional change and never passed laws to enact the rights the people have chosen. All because Bertie made a promise to his dying mammy.

iguana

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

This isnt a tattoo or a piercing we are talking about, this is the termination of a life, it isnt all about the woman.

Jeez thanks for pointing that out to me. In all my talk about abortions and couples grieving for their miscarried pregnancies I still totally thought we were talking about personal grooming.:rolleyes:

iguana wrote: »

Jeez thanks for pointing that out to me. In all my talk about abortions and couples grieving for their miscarried pregnancies I still totally thought we were talking about personal grooming.:rolleyes:

Well then maybe you will wise up and cop that its not all about the woman and her rights, there is a second person involved too, who has a right to life, and that right needs to be protected.

Malari

HellFireClub wrote: »

Well I'm in my 30's and I don't know any of my own mates in long term relationships (most but not all are), who would be at ease with a woman who is in her 30's and still banging on about, "it's my body my choice"...

I don't personally know one person in my life who wouldn't consider a pregnancy a blessing.

I'm just making the point where I can't understand who women who have such an overt and expressive view of abortion on demand, find men to have relationships with, because the lads I know who are out there either in committed relationships or on the dating scene, they would run a MILE from the kind of "me, me, me, me, me" mentality that I'm seeing on here, because these guys want to settle down at some stage and have kids and the last thing they would want I imagine is someone with strong views in this area.

If you have a strong opinion on whether you want a child or not, it's something that is generally discussed with someone you are developing a long-term relationship. I don't see it as any more "me, me, me" than women who insist they do want children one day. Or want to be married. Or want to get to a certain point in their career. All potentially to the detriment of the relationship.

And there are men who don't want children. I know some. My boyfriend is one of them, and it's one of the things we discussed early in the relationship, about the same time we discussed contraception options for the first time.