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Can we have the same Europe with different people ?

lauddly_irish

Hi all,
I am asking this question because I am wondering if immigrants try to integrate in Europe society?
This also the main question of the book "Reflections of the Revolution in Europe : Immigration,Islam and the West" .
in Ireland there is not as many immigrants as in France for instance (where I come from). But already Ireland is changing too.
Is Europe too tolerant ? In the next 50/100 years will we change rules, laws of society just to accommodate Muslims ?

I know personally Muslims in France and I don't have any problem with them. But I read newspapers in France and I notice that France is changing.
For example Islamic meals were imposed to the French football team. In Lille, Muslims have different hours to go to the swimming pool.
In some Muslim district French women are harassed by males because they are not Muslims.
Some french women convert to Islam in order to be in peace with this harassement of muslim men.
I know that these are done by extremists/thugs. But these extremists seem to gain power in Muslims district.
Also some young Muslims generation are very intolerant against homosexual, freedom of women as it was showed on a documentary.

Recently a meal wine-pork sausages in the street of Paris has been forbidden,
because the government did not want to offend muslims(who don't drink alcohol, neither pork).
In the same time each Friday muslims close a street in Paris to pray in it without authorisation of the government.
But we let them pray there in order to keep Social peace..

In french supermarkets , we can see Islamic food more and more. 10 years ago I could not see that.
I understand we should respect other cultures in our country . But to my mind it seems my country is changing completely.
More and more mosque are being built all over France too. In France everybody can criticize catholic religion with no problem.
But if you critic Islam you are racist !
Do you think Ireland, France, Europe can stay secular with different people in Europe ?

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Einhard

demonspawn wrote: »

I think France is currently the most intolerant country in Europe ever since it banned headscarves in schools and is now trying to deport Roma en mass. How does that answer your question OP? Your country has gone from a bastion of liberty to an oppressive, racist, fascist state? Now what do you think of that?

France is a fascist state now? First I heard...

Einhard

lauddly_irish wrote: »

I have black,arab, indian friends. I can talk with anybody with no problem.

So do most racists. Or so they'd have us believe...

Einhard

af_thefragile wrote: »

So I doubt rationalism will ever take roots in Islam. Islam is a deeply spiritual religion.

Can rationalism ever really take root in any religion?

Blobby George

I fully support France's decision to remove Roma from within their borders. Until such time as they behave like law abiding citizens they have no place in France.

af_thefragile

Einhard wrote: »

Can rationalism ever really take root in any religion?

It did in Islam long ago. More successfully than in any other religion. But then it was refuted for spirituality according to the prevailing social condition of that time.

Still most of Islamic law is very rational. If you study the Islamic law on marriage, womens rights and inheritance, you'll find out how progressive they are even for today's standards. The idea of Islamic law being about stoning people and cutting hands is a myth and is only used in propaganda against Islam.

Einhard

Blobby George wrote: »

I fully support France's decision to remove Roma from within their borders. Until such time as they behave like law abiding citizens they have no place in France.

So every single Roma is a criminal then?

Just like every single Irish person is a charming drunk...

Einhard

af_thefragile wrote: »

Still most of Islamic law is very rational. If you study the Islamic law on marriage, womens rights and inheritance, you'll find out how progressive they are even for today's standards. The idea of Islamic law being about stoning people and cutting hands is a myth and is only used in propaganda against Islam.

I think I have to disagree with you there. I understand that people with an anti-Islamic agenda exploit sharia law to further that agenda, but stoning and decapitation and the like aren't myths.

af_thefragile

Einhard wrote: »

I think I have to disagree with you there. I understand that people with an anti-Islamic agenda exploit sharia law to further that agenda, but stoning and decapitation and the like aren't myths.

It is true in some remote areas of muslim lands where cultural tradition is more prevalent than religious impact, such acts are still done in a way which is not in accordance with the Islamic sharia at all.

But if you study the conditions for someone to be convicted with such prosecutions are next to impossible. The amount of witnesses you need for such convictions is not possible unless the act is committed openly in public (eg. for a conviction of Adultery, there needs to be 4 witnesses who have seen penetration, not just what looks to be like the act taking place, if these witnesses can't be presented a conviction can't take place). And unless there are the required amount of witness (who are honorable members of society, they can't be convicted criminals or anyone with a not a good reputation), there can't be a conviction.

Historically most convictions took placed when the person themselves pleaded guilty of the crime out of their own guilt. And even then in the case of stoning, when the criminal is sent into the stoning pit, if the accused gets out of the pit saying he doesn't like it (which he can, he's not tied down or anything), then the stoning is to be stopped and no one can harm the accused person, the accused is free to go.

What you get from the media is only the ugly looking bits of the sharia to give people a very tainted image of Islam which couldn't be further from the truth.

Also sharia law is implemented according to the prevalent conditions of the society. In the western world, which is not an Islamic nation, the sharia law cannot be implemented so even discussion such a topic is pointless.

owenc

Naw it wouldn't work out well.

lauddly_irish

Einhard wrote: »

So do most racists. Or so they'd have us believe...

What racist statement did I say ? It is politically correctness going mad with you...

Einhard

lauddly_irish wrote: »

What racist statement did I say ? It is politically correctness going mad with you...

I never said you were racist. Rather that, on boards at least, all the racists seem to have amazingly multi-cultural groups of friends.

lauddly_irish

af_thefragile wrote: »

These are central concepts in Islam as well.
The sad thing is that they aren't being established in the Muslim world due to cultural influences.
But the western Muslims are much more progressive and hold the values of freedom and rights very strongly.

In a way it seems like the new western Muslims (which comprises of muslims of immigrant heritage and Muslims of western heritage who have converted to islam or born into a family of concerts) are more proper Muslims than the ones in the east. They talk about integrating into the society and most of them do reject the cruel cultural practices that take place in the muslim countries under the name of Islam.

If you ask around the Muslims in this country and any other western country (and for that fact most Muslim countries as well) they'll all mostly tell you they reject terrorism, extremism, violence towards women, hardline Islamist beliefs and any notion of converting Europe or USA into Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

I really can't see why people are so scared of "all these Muslims taking over our countries". That is not going to happen. It's only media and books such as that Cristopher Caldwell's one that is making people paranoid.

Lot of muslims in France want the country to adapt to them. Basically they dont want to integrate to our country... They want islamic food at schools, they want special rights and special accomodation. Chinese,vietnam come from poor country too and they integrate very well. They come from poor country but work hard too and dont attack people in the street,..

If you go to Rome, be roman.

Johro

lauddly_irish wrote: »

because the government did not want to offend muslims(who don't drink alcohol, neither pork).

I don't drink pork either. In fact I'm against it.
I'm also going off the French.

Mike 1972

Einhard wrote: »

Rather that, on boards at least, all the racists seem to have amazingly multi-cultural groups of friends.

I have English, Scottish, Polish, Slovak, Kurdish, Finnish, Iraqi, American, Canadian, Northern Irish, Southern Irish and Czech friends

Now you have me worried..................

Terry

Vive le france.

All I ever see here is that if the Sun supports it, or if the S/Indo supports it, or if the Daily Mail supports it, then it's really bad.

How about you all look at the facts in front of you and make your own decision.

Ask yourself if you would like to see ghettoes formed all across this country, or if you would like to see immigrants integrate to our society. Then look at how and why ghettoes formed in Britain and the U.S. (our closest neighbours with the same language).
Do we really want the same thing happening here?

Ghettoes filled with minorities breed contempt for the majority of a country. This is a recent historical fact. You only need to look at the hatred spewed forth by radical black people in Harlem NY, or by radical Islamic people in Bradford England. Then look at the hatred towards the people in these ghettoes by the indigenous population.

Are we going to be Ireland of the thousand welcomes, or are we going to restrict those welcomes to rich, white tourists that our shopkeepers can rip off?

The OP has asked a question that very few people in Ireland want to answer.
You can all say that you are welcoming towards Muslim immigrants, but I can guarantee that if they tried to impose Sharia law in your area, that you would quickly change your mind.
Some have already tried this in London and France, but we're all to afraid to mention this lest we be labelled racist.
Here's one for you. We were long afraid to talk openly about the Catholic church and what they did to us. Are you all willing to allow the Muslim religion to oppress us in he same way?
This is what will happen if we do not have open dialogue with those who move here with opposing views to our own.

England has been turned into a country where you cannot criticise any minority without facing harsh punishment because of political corectness. The same will happen here if we allow ghettoes to for and we do not promote integration.However, integration has to happen on our terms. After all this is our country and we should not bow to any ridiculous religious laws of any immigrants.

Mike 1972

Thats a terrible persecution complex youve got there.

Terry wrote: »

You can all say that you are welcoming towards Muslim immigrants, but I can guarantee that if they tried to impose Sharia law in your area, that you would quickly change your mind..

Muslim "immigrants" (funny how theres no such thing as an Irish born Muslim) are not going to impose Sharia law in my area.

Terry wrote: »

England has been turned into a country where you cannot criticise any minority without facing harsh punishment because of political corectness. .

Your beloved Daily Mail do it all the time

King Felix

Terry wrote: »

The OP has asked a question that very few people in Ireland want to answer.
You can all say that you are welcoming towards Muslim immigrants, but I can guarantee that if they tried to impose Sharia law in your area, that you would quickly change your mind.

.

I would estimate the chances of Muslims , who currently constitute about 1% of the Irish population, the majority of them moderate, trying to impose Sharia Law, or the Irish State allowing them to do so, to be extremely minimal at best. Now or at any time in the future.

af_thefragile

No Muslim is going to impose sharia law in ireland or any western country for that sake.
I've mentioned it before that sharia law can only be established in an Islamic state. Ireland or uk or France is not an islamic state so even discussing this topic is absolutely pointless.

And most Muslim immigrants in this country are professionals (many of them doctors) and they are more civilised than most inner-city people.
The major crime here is in the inner-city/less developed areas by erm we know what kind of people I'm talking about here.

Blaming Muslim immigrants for the problems in the country is just xenophobic.

Crime is not in ethnic minority areas but in areas with poor social condition. Improve the social condition of these people and you'll solve the crime.

Mike 1972

You know its a good general rule of thumb that threads on AH started by users with a postcount of 1 = trolling

squod

Drink arse feck girls.

irishconvert

lauddly_irish wrote: »

Hi all,
I am asking this question because I am wondering if immigrants try to integrate in Europe society?
This also the main question of the book "Reflections of the Revolution in Europe : Immigration,Islam and the West" .
in Ireland there is not as many immigrants as in France for instance (where I come from). But already Ireland is changing too.
Is Europe too tolerant ? In the next 50/100 years will we change rules, laws of society just to accommodate Muslims ?

I know personally Muslims in France and I don't have any problem with them. But...

Blah blah blah....I hate Muslims and want them out of my country.....blah blah blah

irishconvert

Terry wrote: »

.
You can all say that you are welcoming towards Muslim immigrants, but I can guarantee that if they tried to impose Sharia law in your area, that you would quickly change your mind.
Some have already tried this in London and France, but we're all to afraid to mention this lest we be labelled racist.

Can you please be a bit more specific and explain exactly what Sharia laws they wanted to "impose". You know very well using the generic word Sharia beings images of hand chopping, etc in to non-Muslims minds. So be a little more fair and tell us what laws the Muslims wanted to introduce into their own communities?

By the way, impose means to make everyone, Muslim and non-Muslim abide by the laws. Is that what the Muslims in London wanted? As far as I know they wanted certain laws in regard to marriage and divorce to be an OPTION for Muslims to live by instead of the UK laws on same.

Terry

irishconvert wrote: »

Can you please be a bit more specific and explain exactly what Sharia laws they wanted to "impose". You know very well using the generic word Sharia beings images of hand chopping, etc in to non-Muslims minds. So be a little more fair and tell us what laws the Muslims wanted to introduce into their own communities?

By the way, impose means to make everyone, Muslim and non-Muslim abide by the laws. Is that what the Muslims in London wanted? As far as I know they wanted certain laws in regard to marriage and divorce to be an OPTION for Muslims to live by instead of the UK laws on same.

The extreme sides of Sharia law are very rare, but not unprescedented. Think hook hand Hamza. However, like I said, they are rarities.

The London cases involving family law should never be allowed to happen.
For one it ignores the laws of the land. These ideas should not even be entertained.
Secondly it leaves proper justice open to abuse. All you have to do is misinterpret an obscure verse, and you can go and kick the crap out of your wife. Then you have a valid excuse that it's part of your culture and religion.

irishconvert

Terry wrote: »

The extreme sides of Sharia law are very rare, but not unprescedented. Think hook hand Hamza. However, like I said, they are rarities.

So you now admit that idiots like Hamza are extremely rare, rather than the picture you pained earlier that extreme Sharia Law is in the pipeline coming to a town hear you soon. :rolleyes:

Terry wrote: »

The London cases involving family law should never be allowed to happen.
For one it ignores the laws of the land. These ideas should not even be entertained.

Ok, let me make it easier for you. Terry and Mrs Terry decided to get divorced. A court rules that Mrs Terry should have 50% of Mr Terry's assets. However Mrs Terry decides that would be unfair and she will take 20% instead. Both Mr Terry and Mrs Terry agree to this and sign a contract stating same. You are saying situations like this should not be allowed to happen and you should go by the law of the land, not what you decide yourself.

Terry wrote: »

Secondly it leaves proper justice open to abuse. All you have to do is misinterpret an obscure verse, and you can go and kick the crap out of your wife. Then you have a valid excuse that it's part of your culture and religion.

People can make their own agreements outside law of the land any time they choose. How many times have you heard the line "settled out of court". That is all sharia family law is. The couple make an agreement that should they divorce then a Muslim scholar will decided on the settlement based on Islamic law. The Muslim scholar can't decide anything which goes against the laws of the land, e.g. your rediculous example of kicking the crap out of the wife.

Jews already have these rights, why can't Muslims?

lauddly_irish

irishconvert wrote: »

Blah blah blah....I hate Muslims and want them out of my country.....blah blah blah

Everyday i read some "issues" in France with Muslims. iriconvert you look tolerant and I wish all Muslims were tolerant too.

For example today 08/09/2010 i read that in french catholic schools, Muslims refuse to acknowledge women teachers. They refuse to obey women teachers.(french article) :
http://www.la-croix.com/L-enseignement-catholique-face-a-ses-eleves-musulmans/article/2438553/4078
Muslims teenagers want a special room where they can pray and then they invite people from outside in this room.

But France is not the only country where there is a lot of problems.
Recently in Germany, a video was showing the lack of respect of Muslims students for Germans Christians in school. In this classroom where Muslims were in majority. Germans Christians were harassed by Muslims in classroom. ALso islam seems to become more conservative in Germany :
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,467360,00.html

In Danmark they have banned Muslims from coming in their country.
Irishconvert you should ask yourself why ?
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/denmark.htm

It seems to me wherever Muslims are in majority there is lot of clashes.
In Ireland you won't see any clashes because they are in minority.

Mike 1972

lauddly_irish wrote: »

In Danmark they have banned Muslims from coming in their country..

No they havent