Strange Loop wrote: » MRead Christian scholar Karen Armstrong's history of Mohammad, 'Prophet of our time', for a different history (including the assertion that Aisha was around 18 at the time of her marriage).
Wibbs wrote: » There are more refernces to the age of this girl at 9 than there are of her at 19. Well there are none of the latter. The theologians are working this out based on what they consider the "historical" timeline.
OK so both positions are equally vague on fact. But my take is that unless something changed with regard to marriage age for girls in the Arab/local culture in those 200 years, then chances are pretty high that older men took very young girls as brides at the time when the Prophet was around. That this was acceptable to the culture for the 200 years and up to now. Otherwise Bukhari's hadith(and others that agree with it) would have been left out. If it had been written today it would have been as it would have reflected badly on the message. Therefore if Muhammad was a real historical figure, then it would be as likely that he might have had a childbride as not.
Add to this that the quran puts no age limit on girls for marriage. It does say there is an age, but puts no figure on it. The hadith seem to assume first menses as that age and as girls can have their first period at 9/10 that would be ok. Indeed another way one sometimes sees this explained away by some scholars is that back then life was tougher, girls were different, died very young anyway and were physically ready for intercourse and birth. Pretty much poppycock though.
Strange Loop wrote: » You seem happy to accept the word of a single source, from 200 years after the fact, but not the evidence of modern historians, evidence which seems, to me, to be on a par with your own (quality-wise). Why not?
old_aussie wrote: » A timeline of the life of mohammad and the beginning of islam mohammad says "do as I say, not as I do" The truth seems to be in the article....http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/History.htm
I was not aware we were in a court!
Are you suggesting ANYTHING from a book a thousand years or more old should be taken with anything but a pinch of salt? Because people of the Islamic faith put a whole lot of credence in the old Quran.
But if we were in court I'd be more happy to be in a western court than a court that came under Sharia law. A court that can sentence a teenage rape victim to death by stoning for getting pregnant and then pardon the rapist. FFS
Your 'defence' is the usual line trotted out by supporters of Islam over this point, when it suits you you will reference all the hadiths you can but when its used to show what Islam really is then 'oh its vague blah blah blah'
Islams attitude to girls and women is backward. It starts with your prophet and runs down hill from there.
The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war). Thus, women captives are sometimes forced to marry their Muslim masters, regardless of the marital status of the women. That is, the masters are allowed to have sex with the enslaved human property(rape) You can try and defend your prophet muhammad all you want in this fourm but hey when you get to install sharia law then all us non believers will convert or die. That is how it works is it not? ""O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends and protectors, they are friends of each other. And whoever makes them a friend then he is from amongst them. Verily God does not guide the unjust people. And you will see that those (Muslims) in whose hearts is a disease run towards them saying 'We fear that a calamity may befall us.' So God will soon bring victory or a decision from Him, causing them regret on account of the thoughts they harbored in their hearts." (Quran 5:51-52)"
Strange Loop wrote: » You asked if he was a paedophile. You've presented evidence for the prosecution. I've presented evidence for the defence. I don't think evidence compiled 200 years after the fact, from a non-written source, would be admissible in a Western court, less so the word of a single imam/scholar from June 27, 2008.
Terry wrote: » Yet it's still permissable for men to have sex with 9 year olds in some Muslim countries. Perhaps your time would be better spent tying to convince those people, rather than us.
Wibbs wrote: » I would agree, though that also means that much of what Muslims(and other faiths) believe is equally inadmissable. It's all up for grabs. Like I said the historical Muhammad would also go by the wayside.
Wibbs wrote: » Yep like I said we were at this in Europe(and elsewhere). The main difference being that none of the religious faith founders did the same. Thus it's a lot easier to call it a morally dodgy practice and change it. If Jesus had married a 9 year old we might have very different laws and attitudes still.
Mary was about 14 or 15 and Joseph was about 30 years olders than her.
This age difference should not be taken as a norm for the faithful, but as a special situation. Joseph needed to be much older in order to have a man with much wisdom and experience to care for and protect the Christ-child and His Mother.
Strange Loop wrote: » I don't think evidence compiled 200 years after the fact, from a non-written source, would be admissible in a Western court, less so the word of a single imam/scholar from June 27, 2008.
Hank_Jones wrote: » +1. I've read a few books on the subject and the guy was quite real. In the same sort of vain as Jesus really, except not as many magic tricks.
Nijmegen wrote: » The issue is not what Mohammad did, it's what the religion believes he did. As we see in Yemen, they think marrying and having sex with 9 year olds is grand.
JuliusCaesar wrote: » Source
The Highwayman wrote: » The overwhelming majority of Muslims consider hadith to be essential supplements to and clarifications of the Qur'anJune 27, 2008Age, or lack thereof, is no hindrance to marriage under Islam, according to Ahmad Al-Mu'bi, an officiant for marriages from Saudi Arabia who says sex at 9 is fine.He confirmed, "The Prophet Muhammad is the model we follow. He took 'Aisha to be his wife when she was 6, but he had sex with her only when she was 9." I think this man would be a better scholar of Islam than me and maybe you?
Strange Loop wrote: » None of the Hadith's were written until well over 200 years after Mohamads death. The other hadiths took their evidence from Bukhari's Hadith whose sole source for that claim was from a single source, one guy, who had the story passed down by mouth through his family. That's all the evidence there is. The other hadith got it from there.
The Highwayman wrote: » 2. Sahih Muslim 817-875 A.D. 261 A.H. This is generally considered the second most reliable collection of hadiths. 2a. "(3309) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have shared in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3309 p.715-716 2b. "(3310) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old." (3311) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married here when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her: and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3310,3311 p.716.
Strange Loop wrote: » ...
The Highwayman wrote: » If Mohammed had sex with his 9 year old wife does that make him a pedophile?
The Highwayman wrote: » He must have been a magic man because he died when she was 18 Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88: Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Evidence that Aisha was older than nineMuqtedar Khan argues that there are different reports within the Islamic sources about the age of Aisha at the time of marriage,[7] Maulana Muhammad Ali makes a detailed historical argument that Aisha was betrothed at nine or ten, but was fifteen at marriage,[6] while Moiz Amjad agrees with Hafiz Niaz Ahmad and Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi and argues on the authenticity of hadith regarding Aisha's age and shows that it contradicts with other Islamic literature and puts her age at marriage as late as twenty.[3][4][5] Following arguments are given to support this conclusion.URL="http://www.aimislam.com/w/index.php?title=Aisha%27s_age_at_marriage&action=edit§ion=8"][COLOR=#000000]edit[/COLOR][/URL Authenticity of hadith regarding Aisha's ageReports regarding Aisha's age were recorded during the Abbasid caliphate when Aisha's youth might be deliberately emphasized by scholars to reject Shi'a claims for the descendants of Ali ibn Abi Talib.[20] Most of the narratives regarding Aisha's age are reported only by Hisham ibn Urwa reporting on the authority of his father. All the narratives of this event have been reported through narrators from Iraq, where Hisham ibn Urwa is reported to have shifted after living in Madinah for seventy-one years. It is reported in one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to Muhammad that Yaqub ibn Shaibah said, "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq.[21] Another book on the narrators of the traditions of Muhammad reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly.[22] Muhammad is attributed to say, "A woman must be consulted and get her permission to make the marriage valid".[23] According to another report, Aisha at the age of nine was rather more interested to play with toy-horses than to take up the responsible task of a wife.[24] The permission of an immature girl cannot be a valid authorization for marriage. Comparison of hadith of Aisha's age with hadith of Laylat al-Qadr, in which 1 was used for 21, 3 for 23, 5 for 25 and so on, suggest that maybe Aisha's reports were transmitted literally and 16 became 6 and 19 became 9, as it is a way of talking in Arabic language when base is already known.[4] URL="http://www.aimislam.com/w/index.php?title=Aisha%27s_age_at_marriage&action=edit§ion=9"][COLOR=#000000]edit[/COLOR][/URL Evidences from Islamic literatureAccording to hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE[25] and then in 625 CE in the Battle of Uhud.[26] As no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties,[27][28] Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE. Ibn Hisham's recension of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least fifteen in 622 CE.[29] Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`im ibn `Uday's son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.[30][5](p.91) Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr's four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah,[31] the pre Islamic period, which is said to have ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE when Aisha started living with Muhammad. Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an , was revealed, "I was a young girl".[32] The 54th Surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah.[33] According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be 16 to 23. According to almost all the historians, Asma bint Abu Bakr, the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha.[34][35] Asma is reported to die in the 73 AH, when she was 100 years old.[36][37] Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73 AH, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of Migration to Medina (1 AH). If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at that time, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at the same time. Thus, Aisha - if she got married in 1 AH or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
Richard II of England was joined in marriage to young Isabel of France, who had been 7 years old when their engagement was announced the previous year in Paris. Not only was there no uproar; there was considerable happiness expressed over the assumed probability that this marriage would end the Hundred Years War then in one of its periodic states of truce between the two kingdoms. Peace was to be ensured by joining together this man and this little girl in marriage.
Strange Loop wrote: » The claim that she was 9 when the marriage was consumated came from a book written some 250 years after the fact, and all subsequent claims came from this.Modern historians using a method of aging people according to other events that occured around the same time have determined she was 10 years older, aged 19, when she and Mohammed had sex. So, the fact is there are no facts. Do you believe the guy 250 years after the marriage or do you believe the modern-day historians? (or will you take the agnostic position) I suspect peoples personal feelings towards Muslims (or child brides) will help determine which 'fact' they choose to believe.
gu10 wrote: » Its paedophile, not pedophile. with a distinct letter 'a' after the initial p
