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Child Item

Some East Galway Schools Ghettoized

DogmaticLefty

From what I've seen on the RTE News, it appears racism is alive and well in East Galway.

100% of students entering the school last September required language support.

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IrishManSaipan

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

it appears racism is alive and well in East Galway.

100% of students entering the school last September required language support.

Hold your horses there, horse. Id actually blame the "anti racism" quangos on this bad boy. Two years ago, Brian Hayes suggested that immigrants who have problems with the English language should attend specialised language classes until their English skills were sufficient. Of course this was deemed racist and he had to backtrack. Now, it appears he was bang on the money. Ah well. The "anti racism" will be apologising in 3,2,1......:pac:

FINE GAEL was last night accused of using racist language as its call to “segregate” immigrant children with poor English provoked an explosive row.

Government Minister Martin Mansergh attacked the move as “irresponsible” as teaching unions and anti-racism groups also reacted angrily.

FG education spokesman Brian Hayes drew the heavy fire after he urged the separation of immigrant children having difficulty with English from mainstream classes until their language skills improved.

Unions branded the move “discrimination” and Mr Mansergh warned against Fine Gael using such loaded imagery.

“The word segregation has very negative connotations. It brings to mind images of racial segregation and a time where racism was not only condoned but was an everyday reality in many parts of the world.

“I would be disappointed if Deputy Hayes is consciously using emotive language for assumed political advantage and if he is speaking for the Fine Gael party in that regard,” said the minister.

Chairman of the country’s largest teachers union INTO, John Carr said dividing children would deprive immigrant pupils of contact with other students which could spur their learning.

He dismissed the Fine Gael idea as “discriminatory, inequitable and deeply flawed”.

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/08/20/story70253.asp

[Deleted User]

Ruen wrote: »

How do you know what their cultures are, how many families teach English to their children and how much English they teach them if they do?
.

I lived for a number of years in an area that was rapidly becoming "ghettoised" in England, when I first moved there, most were English, then Irish, Indian, Pakistani etc in that order.
When I left (selling to an Indian Family) The English were in a minority!

So I have some first hand experience.

Ruen wrote: »

Seperating pupils is not the correct approach as that will cause serious issues further down the line, they should provide the children with any language supports they need.

It's far better to get the elephant sorted out right at the start as in get their English up to speed asap rather than drip feeding it over several years and dimminishing the teaching of all the class.

IrishManSaipan

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

They were probably having a liquid lunch over in Buswell's.

They will probably claim expenses.

[Deleted User]

ascanbe wrote: »

Given that this thread relates to those who have just entered primary school, i'll assume, given that you see your position as a legitimate comparison, that you're only 4 or 5 years of age.
In which case your English is incredibly impressive; i'm sure you'll have no problem learning the language of your new homeland and will swim rather than sink.

You ARE aware that children find it much, much easier to learn new languages than adults? 4 or 5 years of age is the ideal time to have to learn a new language.

[Deleted User]

yellowellie wrote: »

How can this work if the other children in their class don't have English as a first language either?

The same way that it works in just about every language immersion school in the world. There's a French school a few minutes from my house and guess what, all the pupils speak French! Shock horror! Even those from non-Francophone backgrounds. It makes it easier for kids in their peers are native speakers of their target language, but it isn't necessary. I also taught at a British school in Spain where 95% of the kids were Spanish and they had all their lessons in English. In most cases, the parents hadn't a word of English. It really isn't that complicated.

How many Irish Primary School teachers do you think can speak Polish, Chinese, Lithuanian, Indian, African languages or any other foreign languages?
Children are not taught English through their first language. They learn English through English. It just takes longer when the children are not immersed in a class with English speaking children.

:rolleyes:

Eh, you can quit rolling your eyes at me. I don't know how it works in every part of the country, but where I'm from, they do indeed have native Chinese, Brazilian and Lithuanian teachers in schools with a large percentage of one of these nationalities. They work alongside the regular ESL teachers who teach English through English. What point are you making anyway?

ascanbe

Terry wrote: »

Indeed.

Anyway, I'm currently in Bhutan and the whole society is against me.
Nobody will speak my native language.

Should I
A. Integrate into the society and learn their language so that I can function as a member of their society?
B. Whine like a little bitch and scream racism because nobody here will go out of their way to learn a foreign language* just to accomodate me?

* Dear pedants. 99% of Irish people speak English as a first language. Therefore; STFU and get back into your outdated Republican trench.

Given that this thread relates to those who have just entered primary school, i'll assume, given that you see your position as a legitimate comparison, that you're only 4 or 5 years of age.
In which case your English is incredibly impressive; i'm sure you'll have no problem learning the language of your new homeland and will swim rather than sink.

dsmythy

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Many immigrant families wouldnt speak English at home even if some/all of them are fluent in it and there is no way legally or practically they could be made to.

Well maybe they should think it to be in the best interest of their children that they do speak English in the home? Or is it easier to run around blaming others?

Ruen

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that if there is a school that finds itself with a large number of non-english speaking pupils, then they really need to have separate classes for these pupils, it's most unfair for the "local" pupils to be held back.

Many of these children could easily have been born here but because of the culture of their families only the men have good english the women stay at home and keep house and have children - this only applies to some immigrants, the remainder will learn English themselves and bring up their children with some English.

No child should be in mainstream education until their language skills are sufficiently good enough to enable them to learn the subject without comprehension being a limiting factor.

How do you know what their cultures are, how many families teach English to their children and how much English they teach them if they do?

Seperating pupils is not the correct approach as that will cause serious issues further down the line, they should provide the children with any language supports they need.

[Deleted User]

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Dirty Fordiners, first they took our Jobs then eat our swans and now there children are taking our schools.

I don't think that the swaneaters children have any real problems with English.

donkey balls

ah terry you poor thing i cant beleive they wont speak english to you:rolleyes: i had the same problem while in south america so i bought a book teaching me the basics(spanish) to get by.

[Deleted User]

I think that if there is a school that finds itself with a large number of non-english speaking pupils, then they really need to have separate classes for these pupils, it's most unfair for the "local" pupils to be held back.

Many of these children could easily have been born here but because of the culture of their families only the men have good english the women stay at home and keep house and have children - this only applies to some immigrants, the remainder will learn English themselves and bring up their children with some English.

No child should be in mainstream education until their language skills are sufficiently good enough to enable them to learn the subject without comprehension being a limiting factor.

JONJO THE MISER

Dirty Fordiners, first they took our Jobs then eat our swans and now there children are taking our schools.

Terry

BluesBerry wrote: »

Member of my family had the misfortune of attending one of these schools he got held back big time because the teacher spent most time on children who's english was not good there was a lot more incidents as well but to personal to put up here but we couldn't get him out quick enough

between him and one other child they were they only Irish born children in the whole school granted it was only newly opened at the time but he had to be kept back a year when he was moved to another school for the amount he fell behind

Indeed.

Anyway, I'm currently in Bhutan and the whole society is against me.
Nobody will speak my native language.

Should I
A. Integrate into the society and learn their language so that I can function as a member of their society?
B. Whine like a little bitch and scream racism because nobody here will go out of their way to learn a foreign language* just to accomodate me?

* Dear pedants. 99% of Irish people speak English as a first language. Therefore; STFU and get back into your outdated Republican trench.

TheZohanS

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Please stop trying to use this thread to further your anti-theist agenda. Keep it on the A&A thread.

Don't back-seat mod.

Mike 1972

Magnus wrote: »

I fail to see how it constitutes racism that there are now so many non-English speaking children in schools that they cannot learn properly because of language barriers. Is it racism that 5 schools in East Galway have 90% of pupils with immigrant parents?

Institutional racism ?

Although not on the part of those the OP appeared* to be suggesting.

* The trollish ramblings being hard to decipher at times

Ickle Magoo

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

There isn't a teacher in this country who would deny a child an education. Catholic or otherwise. Please stop trying to use this thread to further your anti-theist agenda. Keep it on the A&A thread.

That's just not true. Many schools turn away local pupils because they do not share the ethos of the school, you either are not old enough to have kids or you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Do you really think it is a complete coincidence that all these instances of non-Irish children just happen to be in ET schools?

I know you are completely blinkered to anything against religion but I'm not sure how you can't see the blindingly obvious issue here. The education system is flawed, the selection process for pupils is particularly flawed and is exactly what allows for the very thing you are complaining about.

Genghiz Cohen

WTF is this thread about?

Also; Atheism, the Brits, Christians & Nazi.
Now that someone has actually brought them up, DogmaticLefty has an excuse to talk about them.

biko

I fail to see how it constitutes racism that there are now so many non-English speaking children in schools that they cannot learn properly because of language barriers.
Is it racism that 5 schools in East Galway have 90% of pupils with immigrant parents?
Of course we (society/school/parents) need to address this. What do you suggest OP? Extra curricular language training? More teachers?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Lads, if you could set aside your predjudices for the purposes of this thread, I'd really appreciate it. Please don't bring the Catholic Church/the British/your atheism into this discussion, thanks. You can have those kinds of debates over on the A&A forum that you are so intimately familiar with.

The situation in East Galway in untenable.

This is what happens when you have a corrupt planning system.

The fact that those TDs didn't show up at today's meeting is just applying salt to the wounds.

Social fire-fighting is a nightmare of a job.

But religious inequality is the cause.

There's a very easy solution here, but I don't think you're going to like it: throw EVERY school open to EVERY child irrespective of nationality or religion.

Then you get a much better balance of Irish/non Irish and catholic/non catholic kids in all classes and all school rather than herding the minorities together. Simple. Why is it so hard to understand? There's no prejudice, it's not athiest, it's common bloody sense!

DogmaticLefty

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I am aware of that, thanks. There is also a much greater chance that they will speak english in the home if they have the ability to. Most migrants want to give their children the best start in life possible, fairly fundamental to that goal is speaking the spoken language of the locale.

My mum is a teacher in an inner-city school with a large immigrant population. She has language support teachers available to her and the whole school seems to work really, really well. We pay a huge amount on the diplomatic corps. We should regard language support servies equally as important as it reflects on us as a society.

oppenheimer1

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Many immigrant families wouldnt speak English at home even if some/all of them are fluent in it and there is no way legally or practically they could be made to.

I am aware of that, thanks. There is also a much greater chance that they will speak english in the home if they have the ability to. Most migrants want to give their children the best start in life possible, fairly fundamental to that goal is speaking the spoken language of the locale.

chopperbyrne

Nobody in this thread has been anti-Catholic or anti-British.

You were the one who for no apparent reason brought up the British thing and you are since the only one to mention it again.

Plus, you have already been given a good answer, which you seemed to accept, but have now since either forgotten about or decided to reject in favour of wild sensationalism and paranoia.

Mike 1972

Please don't bring the Catholic Church.....into this discussion,

You start a thread about educate together schools (as opposed to the ones owned by you-know-who) Imply racism on the part of unspecified individuals/organisations (Leaving it wide open to interpretation on whose part the racism -if any is on) and then ask us not to mention the organisation which owns the majority of schools in the state ????

WTF like ?

DogmaticLefty

There isn't a teacher in this country who would deny a child an education. Catholic or otherwise. Please stop trying to use this thread to further your anti-theist agenda. Keep it on the A&A thread.

Ickle Magoo

It's impossible not to bring religion into it.

Why do you think all these kids are ending up in a secular school? Why were those kids in Dublin having to be hurriedly built a secular school to attend when first day of school started and no school had accepted them?

When you have a school education system which is allowed to pick and choose students based on faith or able to use faith as a veiled excuse not to choose pupils so you don't need to invest in support for them, this is what happens.

Now you have a country with a history of immigration, having signed up to the EU and had foreign money thrown at it not really wanting immigrants - is it any wonder the TD's aren't touching it with a bargepole?!

DogmaticLefty

Lads, if you could set aside your predjudices for the purposes of this thread, I'd really appreciate it. Please don't bring the Catholic Church/the British/your atheism into this discussion, thanks. You can have those kinds of debates over on the A&A forum that you are so intimately familiar with.

The situation in East Galway in untenable.

This is what happens when you have a corrupt planning system.

The fact that those TDs didn't show up at today's meeting is just applying salt to the wounds.

Social fire-fighting is a nightmare of a job.

Ickle Magoo

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Nice comeback there.

Yeah, nearly word for word the same reply that shamed him off another thread. I lol'd.

yellowellie

[quote=[Deleted User];64431083] My family in the US have said that special ESL support and bilingual teaching is being dropped in their city. It was found to be much less effective than just dumping a child in an English speaking class and letting them pick it up. It sounds cruel but that's how you learn languages. You sink or swim. [/QUOTE]
How can this work if the other children in their class don't have English as a first language either?

[quote=[Deleted User];64431083]
In most cases, teaching children English through their own language is just holding them back. ESL classes (offering English lessons taught in Chinese) were optional at my school and the kids who attended spoke worse English than those who opted to join the rest of us and hope for the best.[/QUOTE]

How many Irish Primary School teachers do you think can speak Polish, Chinese, Lithuanian, Indian, African languages or any other foreign languages?
Children are not taught English through their first language. They learn English through English. It just takes longer when the children are not immersed in a class with English speaking children.

:rolleyes:

Mike 1972

Pittens wrote: »

Which one?

The one that provides for free movement of workers and doesnt have any "subject to language" clause

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If english is spoken in the home, the children will have far less problems integrating into Irish society

Many immigrant families wouldnt speak English at home even if some/all of them are fluent in it and there is no way legally or practically they could be made to.

Steel Pump

Thats all very well and good, but how much can they bench press?

I was lifting steel like you wouldn't believe back in primary and racism was never an issue!! too busy pumpin