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Garda Reserve Experiences

Bradidup

Dose anyone know that if you get in as a reserve are you posted to another part of the city?
I got an e mail from them wondering if i was still interested in an interview. I sent it off two weeks ago. I was told by a cop that the turn over rate is high.

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I'm listening

Think no one is disagreeing with preference, think it was over going straight from Reserve to full with a few extra classes, which is crazy.

It's grand the way it is without the preference aswell, the Reserves will stand to ya during the process anyway, helped me a lot during the interview for the full time.

If preference was to come in, in the future the Reserve selection process will have to move to the same lines as full time, I know people who have failed the application process for full time countless times and get the Reserves first time. Something wrong there!

we3gkfu6qit95s

yea i completly agree with you i do not think any reserve should just have to do a few extra weekends an suddenly there a full timer.
the reserve interview process seems to be quite easier than the fulltimes.

lavman

I'm listening wrote: »

Think no one is disagreeing with preference, think it was over going straight from Reserve to full with a few extra classes, which is crazy.

It's grand the way it is without the preference aswell, the Reserves will stand to ya during the process anyway, helped me a lot during the interview for the full time.

If preference was to come in, in the future the Reserve selection process will have to move to the same lines as full time, I know people who have failed the application process for full time countless times and get the Reserves first time. Something wrong there!

I'm one of those people who failed the full-time interview three times and passed the reserve first time round. The reserve interview didn't seem as intense as the one for the full time member. Even do it was the same process I felt at the end of the interview i did well. Maybe I just had more confidence at that stage. I wonder what the outcome would be if i sat the interview for the full time force again? Still waiting on B/R checks and it's been a year since interview. Kinda off putting having to wait so long.

Bosco boy

Huxley Shallow Hedgehog wrote: »

With all due respect to any fulltime member.
I completly disagree that a reserve should not be prefrence over a normal member of the public just because they pass an alptitude test??.
When the next drive eventually opens up your going to get every joe soap applying that never had an interest in joining in his life and trust me many people that are joining for all the wrong reasons will slip through the net AND will take many reserves places that have been given there free time for a couple of years all because they done better on a test?
In my opinion thats ridiculous.
And i myself do not see the reserves as a back way in i see it as a stepping stone and realise i (we) will have to go through the same process as everybody else.
Why not give prefrence to somebody they know has the drive for the job and can do the job good than take a risk on somebody that performed well on a test and in interview?

If all things are equal and it comes down between choosing a person who has not been in the reserve and a person who has been in the reserve then the person who has been in the reserve should have the advantage and be selected. The application process for a reserve should be as stringent as the full time one.

russo

Bosco boy wrote: »

If all things are equal and it comes down between choosing a person who has not been in the reserve and a person who has been in the reserve then the person who has been in the reserve should have the advantage and be selected. The application process for a reserve should be as stringent as the full time one.

agreed on the above,
and also in my opinion I personally think that people going for the fulltime and hold 3rd level degrees ie "a better standard of education" should be given preference over someone who just has leaving cert qualifications. Just my opinion.

northside girl

Bosco boy wrote: »

If all things are equal and it comes down between choosing a person who has not been in the reserve and a person who has been in the reserve then the person who has been in the reserve should have the advantage and be selected. The application process for a reserve should be as stringent as the full time one.

+1

I agree 100%. The point I was trying to make earlier wasn't to do with aptitudes as such but the fact that the entry requirements to reserves differ from that of the full-time force. If anything it's easier to get into the reserves than the full-time. I do think that if reserves want to join the full-time then more power to them but that they should have to go through the same tests that full timers do whether it's aptitudes, pct, etc.

As I said before, I do also think that if successful at stage 1, the fact that a person serves in the reserves should stand to them and that this should be considered. I do also believe though that there are many people who haven't served in the reserves due to whatever reasons (family, work, whatever) that are equally as capable of making good Gardai and that they shouldn't be penalised for not having served as a reserve. I guess it all depends on the individual really.

I realise that when recruitment opens again there are going to be a lot of people applying for a small number of jobs and that there are maybe people who want to apply for job security more than interest in the job and this is unfair to people who really want to be Gardai. I think that if you have a genuine interest in the job, reserve or not, that this will be obvious and hopefully these people will make it and best of luck to anybody hoping to join or get into the full time some day.

Hooch

Right......i've sat and listened long enough.

This is a place for discussion, not arguing. Everyone is entitled to their view.

Mine is simple......I believe a Reserve should not get preference to a normal applicant. Last year I would have said the vast majority of Reserves were brutal.....but since two I know were sacked the rest we got were great works and great people with their heads screwed on. This changed my view. However, there are several great people who would make great polis who cannot commit to being a Reserve, hense why I wouldnt like to see Reserves getting preference. They like everyone else should be taken on their aptitude.
A transfer course from Reserve to Garda would not work. Full stop. I also cannot see it ever happening.

No Reserves here can say what they want about my VIEW but most Reserves here will know I fully back Reserves and what they do (as long as they are capable). Its not us versus them.........There is no them. Its us.....again however, Reserves are just that....Reserves.

Now mod warning to follow....please stay tuned...

This will NOT become a pissing match.:mad:

If it does I will ban everyone......yes everyone and close the thread for a few weeks. Thanks for watching:)

northside girl

Understood NGA

ZoneAlarm

nice guy always wrote: »

Reserves are just that....Reserves.

I suppose everybody is entitiled to their opinion on what reserves are and are not.

lavman

nice guy always wrote: »

Right......i've sat and listened long enough.

This is a place for discussion, not arguing. Everyone is entitled to their view.

Mine is simple......I believe a Reserve should not get preference to a normal applicant. Last year I would have said the vast majority of Reserves were brutal.....but since two I know were sacked the rest we got were great works and great people with their heads screwed on. This changed my view. However, there are several great people who would make great polis who cannot commit to being a Reserve, hense why I wouldnt like to see Reserves getting preference. They like everyone else should be taken on their aptitude.
A transfer course from Reserve to Garda would not work. Full stop. I also cannot see it ever happening.

No Reserves here can say what they want about my VIEW but most Reserves here will know I fully back Reserves and what they do (as long as they are capable). Its not us versus them.........There is no them. Its us.....again however, Reserves are just that....Reserves.

Now mod warning to follow....please stay tuned...

This will NOT become a pissing match.:mad:

If it does I will ban everyone......yes everyone and close the thread for a few weeks. Thanks for watching:)

YOU'RE BLUFFING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hooch

lavman wrote: »

YOU'RE BLUFFING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And your banned for a day........

EGOSHEA

nice guy always wrote: »

Right......i've sat and listened long enough.

This is a place for discussion, not arguing. Everyone is entitled to their view.

Mine is simple......I believe a Reserve should not get preference to a normal applicant. Last year I would have said the vast majority of Reserves were brutal.....but since two I know were sacked the rest we got were great works and great people with their heads screwed on. This changed my view. However, there are several great people who would make great polis who cannot commit to being a Reserve, hense why I wouldnt like to see Reserves getting preference. They like everyone else should be taken on their aptitude.
A transfer course from Reserve to Garda would not work. Full stop. I also cannot see it ever happening.

No Reserves here can say what they want about my VIEW but most Reserves here will know I fully back Reserves and what they do (as long as they are capable). Its not us versus them.........There is no them. Its us.....again however, Reserves are just that....Reserves.

Now mod warning to follow....please stay tuned...

This will NOT become a pissing match.:mad:

If it does I will ban everyone......yes everyone and close the thread for a few weeks. Thanks for watching:)

It seems to me that the following is the general consensus (and I'm not arguing, NGA!

The experience gained by reserves may indeed be taken into account when selecting the next batch of trainees.
This experience should in no way automatically entitle any given reserve to get in ahead of any other applicant without reserve experience.
There is indeed a solid distinction between present full-timers/trainees and reserves regarding training, responsibilities, appropriate duties, selection criteria, etc.
Personally, I think that 'up-training' modules for reserves (as they progress through their duties) might aid in their actual capacity to assist full-time gardai.
Unlike what I stated in a previous post, I don't think that these should be offset against requirements for full-timer training - except perhaps in gauging a reserve's suitability/experience at interview stage for the full-time.

Many people (as stated before) would make excellent gardai without having been reserves. But is probably is a good way to gauge if the job is for them.

Story1970

Reserves are Reserves blah, blah blah .... Attested Garda Reserve officers are members of An Garda Siochana and should be afforded respect in a similar manner to those who are full time !!!!

On a side issue why would you mention that two reserve members were sacked ? when recent national news coverage related to misconduct issues concerning full time members ?

nice guy always wrote: »

Right......i've sat and listened long enough.

This is a place for discussion, not arguing. Everyone is entitled to their view.

Mine is simple......I believe a Reserve should not get preference to a normal applicant. Last year I would have said the vast majority of Reserves were brutal.....but since two I know were sacked the rest we got were great works and great people with their heads screwed on. This changed my view. However, there are several great people who would make great polis who cannot commit to being a Reserve, hense why I wouldnt like to see Reserves getting preference. They like everyone else should be taken on their aptitude.
A transfer course from Reserve to Garda would not work. Full stop. I also cannot see it ever happening.

No Reserves here can say what they want about my VIEW but most Reserves here will know I fully back Reserves and what they do (as long as they are capable). Its not us versus them.........There is no them. Its us.....again however, Reserves are just that....Reserves.

Now mod warning to follow....please stay tuned...

This will NOT become a pissing match.:mad:

If it does I will ban everyone......yes everyone and close the thread for a few weeks. Thanks for watching:)

EGOSHEA

Story1970 wrote: »

Reserves are Reserves blah, blah blah .... Attested Garda Reserve officers are members of An Garda Siochana and should be afforded respect in a similar manner to those who are full time !!!!

On a side issue why would you mention that two reserve members were sacked ? when recent national news coverage related to misconduct issues concerning full time members ?

To be fair, out of some 14,500 members, it's more than likely that stories regarding anything to do with AGS will feature full-timers (including when they do well and help the public). Let's not turn this into a case of 'us versus them' - the reserve is a blip in terms of the numbers. I've also heard from some full-timers in my area that a small number of reserves are disasters. The truth will be displayed by dedicated reserves who don't hold their role against that of the professional service.

Bosco boy

EGOSHEA wrote: »

To be fair, out of some 14,500 members, it's more than likely that stories regarding anything to do with AGS will feature full-timers (including when they do well and help the public). Let's not turn this into a case of 'us versus them' - the reserve is a blip in terms of the numbers. I've also heard from some full-timers in my area that a small number of reserves are disasters. The truth will be displayed by dedicated reserves who don't hold their role against that of the professional service.

your a member of AGS when you are on the full time payroll, if your a doctor and a reserve you are a doctor, if your a barman and a reserve you are a barman and so on and so on. Just cause someone was in the FCA dosent mean that they were in the army. If your a teachers aid you are not a teacher, if you are a nurses aid you are not a nurse, get the picture! If you cant get into the job full time then you dont deserve to be in it. it was a silly former FCA member who thought he was ex army who created this mess, thanks Michael but you got your answer in the last election!

Commish

Bosco boy wrote: »

your a member of AGS when you are on the full time payroll, if your a doctor and a reserve you are a doctor, if your a barman and a reserve you are a barman and so on and so on. Just cause someone was in the FCA dosent mean that they were in the army. If your a teachers aid you are not a teacher, if you are a nurses aid you are not a nurse, get the picture! If you cant get into the job full time then you dont deserve to be in it. it was a silly former FCA member who thought he was ex army who created this mess, thanks Michael but you got your answer in the last election!

This is actually starting to get ridiculous.

ZoneAlarm

It wont matter what is said in here, as its not going to change anything, at the end of the day Members of An Garda Siochana Reserve Rank is increasing all the time, there is going to be another 4 intakes this year, there is another prob 70 / 80 being attested next week in the Collage, its not going to go away, and the applications are still going in every day as there is no moratorium on the Reserve ranks, so what does that say.

It does not matter what rank you are Reserve, Garda, Sargent, ect, they are all Members of an Garda Siochana, and there is no way to get around that.

The Garda Síochána Act 2005 provides for the establishment of a Garda Síochána Reserve, Under the Act, Reserve members have, while on duty, the same powers, immunities, privileges and duties as Gardaí, but this is subject to a determination by the Garda Commissioner of the powers to be exercised and the duties to be carried out by them.

The Commissioner has proposed specific duties for Reserve members as follows:

Policing powers

The Garda Commissioner proposes that the powers of Reserve members will be confined to the enforcement of the following Acts:

Road Traffic Acts - Demand Driving Licence and Insurance, seat belts, etc.
Public Order Act - Intoxication, threatening behaviour, disorderly conduct and failure to comply with direction of member of An Garda Síochána
Theft Act - Theft and Burglary
The Criminal Law Act 1997

Discipline

The Garda Commissioner proposes that Reserve members, when on duty and in uniform, will be subject to a similar code of discipline as applies to the regular Service. The current Garda Síochána Discipline Regulations, which are under review, will have to be adapted to provide for the establishment of the Garda Reserve.

"Reserve Gardaí will carry out duties (minimum 208 hours per annum) as directed by the District Officer and will report to line management in a like manner as a member of the regular Service.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR07000880

Jack O'Neill

I think there are two items under debate...

1 – The future process for recruitment of full time Police Officers / Gardaí
2 – The increased development of the Garda Reserve.

The one thing that links these debates is economics.

On the first, there is a huge thinking on the process of recruitment, training and financing of Recruits.

On the second, with the maturing of the Reserve service an increased need for value deployment is being sought from this investment.

For those folks waiting on a start – there will be 6 intakes this year for Reserve Garda recruitment, 40-50 per intake - about 300 new members.

Reserve Gardaí have the same full powers as a regular member, but are limited by the duties as set out by the Commissioner. There is a review ongoing of these duties, which would be increased commensurate with advanced training.

There are at this time 681 Reserve Garda in the service, 148 of those are in various stages of training. 46 Reserve members have gone on to join the regular service and can only add to the professionalism of the service overall.

There will be 1 intake for the regular service in 2011 which will have an experimental 27 weeks course.

Reserve Gardaí are welcomed and accepted by the regular members and the community for their role, save in a few instances- where there are psychological/character failings more akin to bullying & control issues.

Do not be put off by generalised prejudices and inductive reasoning – a Bigot is a Bigot.

They are not in the real world.

Shield

This thread is being temporarily closed to give some people a chance to breathe, and others a chance to cop on. Like my fellow mod, I'm not going to stand by and let a hugely popular thread be hijacked with politics.

I'll re-open it again tomorrow, and when I do, this tit for tat will stop, one way or another.

Shield

Now that you have all had time out, I am going to post my observations, findings and comments. I am not in AGS and I have no issue with the Garda Reserve. I feel I must state that up front.

First of all, terminology:

Member

Section 3 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005 states:

In this Act... “member”, in relation to the Garda Síochána, means—
(a) a member of any rank (including the Garda Commissioner) appointed under Part 2 or under an enactment repealed by this Act, and
(b) a reserve member,

However, this is for the purposes of the Act only, and further down the page is also states:

“reserve member” means a person appointed under section 15 as a
reserve member of the Garda Síochána.

For the purposes of this forum, and to avoid any ambiguity going forward, a "member" is taken to mean a member of An Garda Síochána who holds the rank of Garda or higher, and a "reserve member" is a person who holds the rank of reserve Garda, and who assists An Garda Síochána on a voluntary basis. There is a difference and this forum will acknowledge the difference.

If an individual has completed the Garda Reserve Training Program they are either a Member of the Garda Reserve, a Garda Reserve, a Reserve Garda or a Reserve Member of An Garda Síochána. The general term that is used in the Garda Síochána (Reserve Members) Regulations 2006 is "reserve member".

They are not a Member of An Garda Síochána or a Garda. They are, however, acting in the capacity of a member of An Garda Síochána as a reserve member.

Garda Reserve

As per Section 2 of the Garda Reserve Information Booklet, members of the Garda Reserve are not employees of An Garda Síochána.

Rank

As per Section 10 of the Garda Reserve Information Booklet, this forum recognises that "A person appointed as a reserve member holds the rank of reserve Garda." I know some members dispute that Garda Reserve is a rank, but it's there in black and white, "with the compliments of the Commissioner" on page 1.

Powers

A reserve member has the same powers, immunities, privileges and duties as a person who holds the rank of Garda, however they only patrol in the presence of, and under the supervision of full-time members.

Now that we're all on the same page, this thread will open again tomorrow to give people time to get to grips with the correct terminology for use on this forum.

Anybody who ignores moderator instructions or warnings with be dealt with in accordance with the forum charter.

Shield

We're now open for business.

As adults, I would ask you to let go of anything that has caused you offence thus far, and suggest we all start again with a clean slate, using the above post as guidelines.

If you want to contact me about this post, or the one above, then use PMs. Do not reply on thread.

Thanks, and happy posting.

Commish

Hello all great to be back in business.. Thanks Psni for getting the ball rolling again.
Over the weekend when we were on our breather i decided to go and have a chat with a senior ranking "member" of an garda siochana because i am actually really interested to see what a person of some real service, views are on the "reserve member" situation.

Firstly and i think this is the question on all our minds was- Are reserves members of an Garda Siochana???? And the response was - Yes as stated in the garda siochana act 2005 reserves members are included in the scope of members of the Gardai full stop no other way of looking at it. Reserves take the same oath as full time members and are without any doubt members of the force. If you read an identification badge of a garda reserve it states that person is a member of An Garda Siochana holding the rank of Garda Reserve. You cant get it much clearer than that really.

Next question was - do you feel the reserve force is working out? And the response was- Yes most certainly- The reserves have provided excellent support to the Garda force and the position for which they were introduced to strengthen which is "to be a source of local strength and knowledge". Like everthing else in this life there will be a few that tend to lag behind the others and you will always get that no matter where you go. The big problem in the reserves at the moment is there isnt enough to provide even more support.

Next question was (and this was the one that caused a lot of debate in here) - should there be a way to convert reserves into the full time Garda Siochana and do you feel anything like this would ever happen? - and the answer was - Yes i would like to see some type of a conversion course set up to change garda reserves over to full time Gardai but these positions would have to be minimised to certain reserves who have really proved themselves with time they have put in thus far and their performance to date. There would also have to be a serious recommendation from the reserves Superintendant and the course structure would be the same as the new course due to start in Templemore soon, lasting the same length also.
If this did occur it wouldnt be the first time we have saw reserve members changing over to the full time members. In fact this is not the first reserve force that has existed in the Gardai it is actually the third reserve force to ever exist. During the emergency there were two reserve forces to the Garda Síochána, An Taca Síochána and the Local Security Force. An Taca Síochána had the power of arrest and wore uniform, and were allowed to leave the reserve or sign-up as full members of the Garda Síochána at the end of the war before the reserve was disbanded. The reserve was established by the Emergency Powers (Temporary Special Police Force) Order, 1939.
The Local Security Force (LSF) did not have the power of arrest, and part of the reserve was soon absorbed into the Irish Army reserve under the command of the Irish army (all available on Wikipedia).
The member felt it wouldnt be a bad move either in an age where money is practically non existant. We are practically experiencing a modern day emergency with no money or jobs out there. Obviously not as severe as then but never the less a very depressing time for the world.

It was an interesting chat and this is honest and sincere and not something that i decided to think up-i swear to that. As the thread is about Garda Reserve Force i thought it would be nice to see the views of such a distinguished Garda and share it with Gardai, Reserve Gardai and people who arent even in any police force yet alike.

freddiew

I would like to shake your hand well done, well said and well written. Are you in the Reserves, PM me if you wish. Thanks

This is what I was about to send which agrees with what you have said:
GARDA SIOCHANA ACT 2005

“member”, in relation to the Garda Sıochana, means—
(a) a member of any rank (including the Garda
Commissioner) appointed under Part 2 or under an
enactment repealed by this Act, and (b) a reserve member,
but does not include a member of the civilian staff of the Garda
Sıochana;
(3) Subject to subsection (5), a reserve member has, while on duty,
the same powers, immunities, privileges and duties as a person
appointed under section 14 to the rank of garda.
(5) The Garda Commissioner may determine the range of powers
to be exercised and duties to be carried out by reserve members.

Garda Síochána (Reserve Members) Regulations 2006
(f) the person has, before the date of application to be accepted as
a reserve trainee, obtained -
(i) in the Leaving Certificate Examination of the
Department of Education and Science or the Leaving
Certificate Vocational Programme of that Department.
(5) The Garda Commissioner may exempt a person from meeting the
requirements of paragraph (1)(f) if satisfied that the person has personal attributes
which otherwise render him or her suitable to be admitted as a reserve trainee.

AN INFORMATION BOOKLET from the
Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform
OIREACHTAS APPROVAL
THE GARDA SÍOCHÁNA ACT 2005 PROVIDES FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A GARDA SÍOCHÁNA RESERVE.
Q. Will service with the reserve be taken into account when people are?
being recruited to full-time service with An Garda Síochána?
A. Yes. Future Garda Interview Boards will be required to take into account
the experience gained by candidates who have worked with the Garda Reserve.

Story1970

Well said to both of you ....

Spartan09

Firstly I want to thank both of the Mods for calling a halt to the outbreak of hostilities on here. During my application period for the reserves I have found this thread an invaluable resource and the frustrations re the time period from applying to getting started on training has been somewhat lessened by knowing there are alot of people out there feeling the same as me.

One of the primary reasons that I waited so long to apply in the first place is that I was apprehensive about applying following the initial reactions of the GRA and AGSI. For me personally the greatest stumbling block was the potential negative reaction of my friends, of varying ranks, to my application. Having consulted with each of them early last year and recieving their unconditional support both for my application and the Reserve as a concept I was happy in my decision to apply. One of my friends was vehemently against the concept of the Reserve and was not shy in sharing this opinion with me, calling them the "nosey curtain twitching brigade". However once he got the opportunity to work with Reserves first hand and when he had to work shifts with chronically short staffed units except for the availability of Reserves he changed his opinion and is now fully behind the concept. Most of my friends who I initially consulted were of Garda rank. I have since had the opportunity to discuss the Reserve with Gardai of both Sergeant and Inspector rank. Both were of the opinion that the Reserve played an important role in modern day policing in Ireland, with of course obvious limitations compared to fully attested members.

Despite being one step behind training (still waiting on Super interview but recieved info that it should happen in next week or two) I am still as optimistic as ever about the role of Reserves and their potential to support our dedicated front line full members. I have no illusions about the role of Reserve and do not for an instant think that I will be there to replace or be as well trained or as good as a fully trained full time member. I will be (when hopefully get in) there to support the full time member in any way that I can and will perform any duty that they deem appropriate to my level of training and experience.

On an aside, I was delighted to see members of the Reserve outside Croke Park on Saturday with full time members helping the public with directions and general crowd control. I was with people that only for my pointing out the distinction wouldnt have been able to distinguish a reserve member from a full time member and my impression would be that this is a common occurrence.

At the end of the day the fully attested members of An Garda Siochana and the Reserve members in my opinion have more in common than they do differences. We all believe in the rule of law and of providing a service to the community and what we believe in should unite us rather than divide us.

Scouser

psni wrote: »

A reserve member has the same powers, immunities, privileges and duties as a person who holds the rank of Garda, however they only patrol in the presence of, and under the supervision of full-time members.

.

what immunities and privileges do a person who holds the rank of garda have?

Shield

Immune from RTA while on duty.

Privilege of protecting communities from scumbags.

ZoneAlarm

I have to say to the posters above, well done and excellent reading, hopefully, this will be an insite to people who required more info on the subject.

Scouser

psni wrote: »

Immune from RTA while on duty.

Privilege of protecting communities from scumbags.

ur speakin my language!

i got the call for a medical in two weeks in the depot, praying that im down to start in templemore in the march intake.

its nearly a year to the day since i applied and every day im motivated more to get stuck in!

munster4868

To everyone here, Please get back to the business of why this tread was started. If you all need to re-fresh your memories, please review all 200 and odd pages and lets get back to the business on helping and informing people. I am a reserve garda for over 2 years now. Been a member not been a member, been respected by everybody or been looked upon as a wanta be garda is irrelevant to me. I began this process when it was introduction years ago for my own reasons and i can assure you all that one of the reasons WASN'T that i was to be called or looked upon as a member of AGS. It just looks to me from reading the posts that people need to take the chip off the shoulder and just get on with it. An old saying "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names can never hurt me"... So what, if SOME regular full time members of AGS have issues with the reserve concept, won't you if someone came in and started to do your job on a free basis. Like i said, get on with it and stop posting about the reserves and what we are.. all it can do is to turn more regular full time members OFF the whole concept of the reserve. Sorry if i insulted a few people here but lets all reflect on why we joined.. and i would say the vast majority would say it has nothing to do with been CALLED a member or not. So lets get on with the business on this tread please.