Kipping Pull Ups

yes and everything he does is just so efficient not to mention he can knock out many other crossfit workouts in super times so he is not a one trick pony

Inspector Coptoor

the thrusters all look very good but what;s the story with the pull ups?
is what he's doing there "kipping"?
would it take an awful lot longer if he didnt swing his legs and did strict pull ups?

cardio,shoot me

Kipping pull ups are alot harder than they look :P I completely failed at them when i tried. Its a skill in itself really

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUfR8N5VDfQ

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

is what he's doing there "kipping"?
would it take an awful lot longer if he didnt swing his legs and did strict pull ups?

It would take longer, he seemed to do 20 in about 20s. One claimed record for "strict" ones is 46 in a minute

It is called kipping, I have also read a gymnastics coach call them Chinese pullups more here

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

Kipping pull ups are alot harder than they look :P I completely failed at them when i tried. Its a skill in itself really

They are hard to do, I cannot do any yet, but once you have it down they are easier than normal pullups for most. It is an easy way to get more reps in a set, it is more of a power movement and incorporates the whole body more. I think you will see crossfit guys doing 50 or so kipping ones. A guy called John Curd Edmunds, allegedly did 220 chinups in a row at age 67 but was kipping and using wrist straps too. On some sites you will see people calling it cheating, but they are missing the whole point of it, the crossfit guys obviously know it is easier, lads in pissing contests complain that they are not "real".

In most of these contests you will see the minimum ROM possible being used too, people look to be painfully straining their neck upwards so the chin is reaching the bar.

And there are different styles and amount of kipping, Hanley posted this video ages ago, he is doing far less kipping than the crossfit guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boLl8rGhJvE

Inspector Coptoor

I've no doubt pull ups with kipping is hard aswell.

Thanks for the info

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA39l8fGeg4

the powerlifter guy is doing just as much kipping as jason - jason is just more efficient with his kipping and butterflying more

Also there is no minimum range of motion at all - your chin either clears the bar or it does not - simple as.

Now if the wod asked for chest to bar on the pull ups thats different. Also both have to get arms to full extension on the bottom which is unlike what is happening here and not one counts in my book -

All i know is that i can kip ok and at 90kg can bang out 25-30 kipping pullups and this has helped me get my one rep max chin up with perfect form to body weight plus an added 50kg and i can guarantee jason could put up similar numbers also.

All i know is that when speed is called for i kip, when i want to build pure strength i slow it down some and add some weight.

Got to retest my fran time soon

Inspector Coptoor

sorry to be hogging your log cardio!

I'm not criticising either way of doing them. I was only asking what people's definition of a "proper" pull up was and it's clear it varies.
I can do about 3 pull ups at 116kg.

I guess people doing crossfit use kipping and butterflying for speed to bring WOD times as low as possible.
People looking to develop their lats might not extend arms fully at the bottom to keep the lats under constant tension.

my question has been answered, thanks to all who replied.

Hanley

Transform wrote: »

the powerlifter guy is doing just as much kipping as jason - jason is just more efficient with his kipping and butterflying more

Gotta disagree with ya on that. Rhabdo's are much more kipped than Konsti's in my book!! He's not coming thru as much, and Rhabdo's snapping his hips alot more.

Check these out for awesome kips;

And Liam, re: kipping - they're kipped because you can move thru them faster, so the total workload done in the same amount of time is greater, which leads to more of a cadrio overload (aka metcon in CF speak).

The strict pull up is better for muscular development and strength, but the kip is better for the purposes of what they're trying to achieve when they do a CF workout.

Transform wrote: »

the powerlifter guy is doing just as much kipping as jason - jason is just more efficient with his kipping and butterflying more

Then I think we are simply disagreeing about the definition of kipping, I was saying there is different styles and by "less kipping" I meant what you said -less efficient and butterflying less. When doing quick pullups it is hard not to get a little rhythmic kipping going, even the "strict" record guy has a little rhythm going and the powerlifters is just a little more, the crossfit guy is full on swinging really working the whole body a lot more. Each has their place I am not criticising any or saying they are "cheating".

Transform wrote: »

Also there is no minimum range of motion at all - your chin either clears the bar or it does not - simple as.

I was saying in contests you will see people develop the most efficient style. Which might not be the best exercise style to copy for your own particular goals. I cycle a mountain bike to work to burn more calories on the fixed route, if it was a race I would be on a racer, the lads in the cycling forum think you are a nutter if you commute on a mountain bike.

The "rule" is the chin must clear the bar so I always see them straining their neck back, this is what I meant by achieving the minimum ROM possible, a greater ROM is possible, even by keeping their head in a normal position. It is like sprinters stretching their head/torso across the line, it makes sense to do it. I presume the rules do not say you cannot go chest to the bar so a greater ROM is possible, but it would be foolish to do so in a contest.

Transform wrote: »

i can guarantee jason could put up similar numbers also.

I am sure he could, like I said I am not criticising, if he was going chest to the bar then it would be something to point out as a way he could reduce his time!

BossArky

Moved the posts from Cardio's log to a new thread here.

Great stuff, so any tips on starting to kip? To be honest I find them more difficult to do than normal pullups? I'm obviously not getting the rhythm right.

Doesn't help that it's not possible in the gym (due to the setup, any sort of swing is not possible) so I have to head to the park to try them.

yes the park next to me is where i learned on my own just me and the bar and i did not leave until i got it and then muscle ups and on and on.

There is no way you can put up very good times on crossfit workouts that require pull ups without some/lots of kipping and it will take lots of practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFXXTFqtcIs

cmyk wrote: »

Great stuff, so any tips on starting to kip?

I can't kip, but there are plenty of youtube tutorials out there, just type in kipping tutorial, many are by crossfit guys. Also if you do quick pullups you really have no choice than to do a little swing, like the guy in the world record video I posted. I actually find it more beneficial looking at lads doing light kipping. Hanley posted a video of him doing a muscle up and it is similar to what I have ended up doing a few times (not the muscle up, the small kick/kip). I just cannot keep the rhythm going after the first.

I linked this gymnastic coaches instructions here http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1656

now that it is dark earlier I am able to go to a playground which is on my way home, I found that a swing thing is movable on a high bar which is a perfect height for kipping or muscleups so I am going to practise more and more, though these cheap halloween chocolate bars are not helping matters!

That guy doing hundreds I mentioned used wrist straps, so I might give them ago.

rubadub wrote: »

I just cannot keep the rhythm going after the first.

This is exactly my problem. I've looked at a good few on youtube over and over, just to see is there a little trick I'm missing. There's one v.good tutorial which I'll dig out. That article on the chinese pullups explains it quite well actually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7spRknkD1hU&feature=related

well for me there was no trick to it just practice more and as Will (crossfit) mentioned to me - if its important then do it daily

Edwardius

Practice is what got it for me. You have to perfect the timing and no amount of overthinking will help with that!

Dead Ed wrote: »

Practice is what got it for me. You have to perfect the timing and no amount of overthinking will help with that!

totally agree

token

I've been CF'ing for a good 7 months at this stage but my technique is still not 100% but the most important thing I find to keep the rhythm going is to push yourself away from the bar at the top of the pullup like you were doing a vertical bench press. Sounds straight forward enough but it get's hard when you start to fatigue.

Colm_OReilly

token got there before me. When you're at the top, try and push the bar down and away and this puts you into the next kip.

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

try and push the bar down and away and this puts you into the next kip.

I have heard this mentioned before and I think it is part of my problem. I have always used a chinup bar at home starting out and was wary of the bar falling down so was always very slow & controlled. In bars in the park I can do an explosive upward movement but still can not get used to pushing myself forcefully away. Just more getting used to it I suppose. If you watch peoples elbows you can see they change in postition a lot when kipping hard.

Many muscleup tutorials will have kipping tips too.

token wrote: »

I've been CF'ing for a good 7 months at this stage but my technique is still not 100% but the most important thing I find to keep the rhythm going is to push yourself away from the bar at the top of the pullup like you were doing a vertical bench press. Sounds straight forward enough but it get's hard when you start to fatigue.

That's good to hear. It's one of those exercises that looks so god damn simple.
I can't dance either so maybe it's my rhythm!

gabgab

Cardio, and anyone else please feel free to head up to Crossfit and have a go and get some pointers on kipping, we would be delighted to have you guys up here

Roper

A lot of pseudo science here lads. I'm not anti-kipping but does anyone have any real data for kipping pull ups versus standard ones? Not too hard to measure and surely some crossfitite has had access to a hrm and has run some numbers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8L3FSRJWj4

my attempt at a few pull ups today - should have done a few more but was not on top form today.

35reps

Colm_OReilly

Roper wrote: »

A lot of pseudo science here lads. I'm not anti-kipping but does anyone have any real data for kipping pull ups versus standard ones? Not too hard to measure and surely some crossfitite has had access to a hrm and has run some numbers?

Barry,

What are you looking to measure, exactly?

Colm_OReilly

That reads a lot more aggressively than I wanted.

Roper

Didn't read aggressively at all. Someone earlier said that kipping allowed a greater workload in the given time. I'd like to see some solid data before I bought that.

I'm also not sold on the rationale behind kipping versus strict form pull ups as used in this thread thus far, or in discussions of Crossfit in general. When I ask this question usually I get wishy washy answers, I'm just looking for something empirical. I know you guys also do strict form pull ups too so it's not a style versus style debate, just an enquiry on the rationale behind their use in Crossfit programming.

Vegeta

I'd imagine its a path of least resistance thing

Kipping seems both easier (using more muscles and body momentum) and faster.

So in a timed event or competition environment you'll pick the method which gives the highest number of reps.

If the goal was not speed or number of reps, but strength and muscle development I'd imagine they wouldn't kip.

Roper

Vegeta wrote: »

I'd imagine its a path of least resistance thing

Kipping seems both easier (using more muscles and body momentum) and faster.

So in a timed event or competition environment you'll pick the method which gives the highest number of reps.

If the goal was not speed or number of reps, but strength and muscle development I'd imagine they wouldn't kip.

Well that's what I mean, everyone can "imagine" what it is but I've yet to see any exercise science supporting them as a part of conditioning workouts. Again I'm not anti-kipping, I'm just loooking for hard science. I've seen and done enough stuff that isn't doing what people think it's doing.

If it's just to rack up greater numbers on the pull ups to post better times I've also no problem with that.