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Vinters Assocation moaning.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Almost 10,000 bar jobs will be lost by next year unless action is taken to save the traditional country pub, industry chiefs warned today.

The Vintners Federation of Ireland said 1,700 watering holes have shut their doors in the last five years with just less than 5,000 jobs axed in the last 12 months alone.

The body demanded the Government slash VAT and local authority charges to help boost the beleaguered sector.

It also claimed banks were not giving credit to small businesses and called for a special watchdog to monitor their lending habits.

Val Hanley, VFI President, said: “We’re under pressure.

“Jobs are being lost, pubs are being closed, the rural fabric of rural Ireland is closing down.

“They’ll be no social outlet if we don’t take something in hand.”

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/thousands-of-bar-workers-facing-unemployment-warn-vintners-423880.html

Ok, while I'd welcome a cut in VAT rates to strimulate the economy (wouldn't we all?), but why the hell can't publicans come up with some ideas or initiatives of their own to bring back customers?

When I was living in Ireland, I got bored of the routine pub culture and the similarity of a lot of the bars I went to. Every one of them seemed to think all they had to do was get a licence and a few barrels in and people would be coming to the bar in droves! Come on lads - businesses go under all the time, but it's the ones that innovate that survive.

As for the "no social outlet line" - this strikes me as arrogant: people who don't go to pubs still have prefectly acceptable social lives. And if the ones in more isolatred areas don't, maybe their areas need more variety...

Or am I being too harsh?

Gentlemen and gentle ladies, the floor is yours.

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Biggins

The Vinters federation operate like RGDATA. For years they bullied left, right and center.
Now their "chickens are come home to roost".

No sympathy for them whatsoever and it seems the public is reacting a great deal the same way.

Biggins

mikemac wrote: »

You need a licence.

It was about to introduced but got shot down by Fianna Fail, the republican party.

It was a great idea, a shame it never happened....

Why was it shot down??? :rolleyes:

Massive 40% of Fianna Fail TD's Are Pub Owners

Did you know 40% of Fianna Fail T.D.s are publicans. The drink (pub) licence stranglehold, they control, represents the largest monopoly in the State. The price at which these licences change hands reflects the gross hypocrisy of these elected rural T.Ds.
They represent a cartel of individuals who organize to manipulate,dominate and effectively control the pricing structure, and the social and drinking habits, of 4 million citizens.

Publicans were last night mulling over whether to raise the price of a pint after a High Court case which forced the end of a price freeze. It was still unclear last night whether the price of a pint would go up or, more unlikely, go down, following the High Court ruling that a price freeze by publicans amounted to a breach of competition rules. Its been recognised however that the LVA and VFI (Licensed Vintners' Association and the Vintners' Federation of Ireland) created a price freeze NOT to stop prices from going upwards but to stop others from LOWERING their individual pub prices. Many individual pub owners are getting tired of the bully tactics supposedly taken out in their name.

In one infamous case, there exists a well known publican in Athlone who sold all pints for €3 everyday. He was a member of the VFI. Two other publicans came into the pub one day and demanded to speak to the owner When he arrived they started going on about "if you want the protection of the VFI you will have to bring your prices into line with the rest of us etc..." The owner opened his wallet in front of other customers witnessing the event, takes out a cheque that he'd made out for his next membership fee and riped it up, threw it at them and told them to get the **** out of his pub. Reportedly during the heated argument VFI-Athlone had admitted, in front of an entire pub full of people, that they fix prices amongst themselves.

The publics reaction of the prospect of pub prices being raised is one of anger and determination to further stay away from the rip-off pubs and their organisation ironically claiming to be actually working in favor of the business, but as the pubs empty more, the losers will be thousands of staff in the country and the public further being ripped off!
As a simple example, consider this: a bottle of Sauvignon Blanc starting out life at a cost of €2.05, costs on average €24 in Irish restaurants and bars when the public goes to pay for it!

Above from: unitedpeople.ie

and

http://www.soldiersofdestiny.org/tddrinklobbyscandal.htm

the_syco

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

They claim drinking at home is unsafe as you can pour spirits without measuring it etc and in a pub you are supervised by the big hearted publican/barmen.

Safe? SAFE? SAFE? The b*****ds will pour you shots until you have no money, then throw you out claiming your drunk (course you are, they've served you more than enough drink), letting you wonder home drunk out of your mind.

As opposed to being at home, drinking, stumble to your bed, and go asleep.

=-=

In the good old days, after the recession, but before the boom really took off, you could get 4 pints of Guinness, a bag of Tayto, and get change of a tenner.

Now, you'd have to order only one pint of the black stuff, and a bag of Tayto, for it to be under a tenner. F**k off and die. The "local pub" will stay alive. The large pubs will die.

Drop the prices of a pint to €3 or €4 and you'll see people come back. But oh f**k no. They lose business, so they raise the price of drink...

yeah, that'll really get people flocking back o_0

CCCP^

People don't go to pubs because pub prices are too high. That's the Publicans problem, and until they drop prices, nothing is going to change. I love how big business goes crying to the Government for ****ing handouts in this country, yet ordinary people are expected to foot the bill and still do business with their bull****.

994

mikom wrote: »

They're forgetting about the dole office.

And taking a few cans down to the field.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

7 euro for a pint in some sh!thole in dublin, dandoline or something, 10 euro cover charge, The luas is fairly cheap. What are they thinking? I normally get 6 cans of tuborg for 8 quid and stay in playing games or watching a video. Fcuk the VFI to be honest.

bigeasyeah

How about a nice pint for under 4 euros.

rubadub

Jenroche wrote: »

They should give out soft drinks for free for designated drivers.

Yes, coke were giving free drinks in some pubs. I have heard some publicans in the country will organise lifts or rent a minibus and driver their own punters to & from their pub.

the_syco wrote: »

In the good old days, after the recession, but before the boom really took off, you could get 4 pints of Guinness, a bag of Tayto, and get change of a tenner.

But wages have gone up, and inflation has caused other stuff to go up. I am not defending them, they certainly charge too much. But the apparent huge rise is a bit skewed due to one major reason. The real difference between now and 15 years ago is the dramatic difference in price between off licences and pubs, many younger people do not realise this. When I started drinking ~16-17 years ago I remember it roughly costed twice as much to drink in a pub as at home, not it is more like 5 times. The cheapest can back then was £1, which is €1.27, so it has actually come down in price (spirits have gone up though). All those €1 bottles were ~£1.30 back then, in another thread some lad had inflation figures and if it followed normal inflation I think those €1 bottles should be ~€2.50 now.

Other things have happened, the smoking ban saw a rise in people drinking at home. But also loads of pubs jumped on the bandwagon and expanded their size and new pubs opened, all trying to cash in. Now you have people staying at home and it keeps growing in popularity. Even when there is a birthday or reason for a get-together I see mates sticking to houses. I often end up heading home to peoples houses from the pub since the pub is simply "dead", we leave and it is even emptier, more people likely to go etc, it snowballs. My local is so dead there is little atmosphere at all, its like it used to be on a tuesday night or even afternoon. There are too many pubs and too many big pubs that look like empty barns.

Years back I really looked forward to getting out and to the pub, used to be sitting at home thinking "WTF are we not in the pub", now we are in the pub thinking "WTF are we doing here, paying these stupid prices, listening to this muck music, lets head home".

The off-licence 10pm closing seems to have backfired on them a bit too, since often we have rushed out early to be in time to get drink.

EDIT: found that thread

LiamD wrote: »

You can't just compare punt prices 15 years ago with euro prices now, you need to allow for inflation.

If you take it at 3% then the punt price of your pint now is £2.50*(1.03^15) = £3.89. Converting to euro at €1.27/£ the price today should be €4.95. A lot of pubs in Dublin are charging close enough to this price for a pint.

rubadub wrote: »

Using your own math, my cheap £1 can 15 years ago was €1.27 so should be €1.97 today with inflation. Yet there is quite a selection of cans for €1 still.

Bottles of bud/heineken/miller etc were £1.30/€1.65 so should be €2.57 with inflation, yet are always available €1 now, I have gotten heinekens as low as 64cent per bottle with offers on crates.

Quint

Maybe The Vinters Federation should stop organising price fixing and encourage healthy competition between their members.

But there's more chance of Beyonce, Scarlett Johansson and Sharon Ní Bheoláin breaking down my front door and oil wrestling on my living room floor.

skelliser

this is val hanley http://valhanley.com/
the head of the vitners association, the guy on the last word tonight.
oh and hes a member of ff, and is also abit of a property developer.
oh did i mention when he lost his seat on galway city council he somehow got into udaras na gaeltachta.
last but not least he owns two pubs in galway city, one of which is a hotel. Somehow i dont see him "suffering" during this resession.

MikeC101

hot2def wrote: »

wait, they want offies gone altogether? what possible argument could they make for that other than "We want the competition gone, so we can have more money"?

Probably something along the lines of "cheap alcohol means people will buy too much and drink it and become alcoholics" or similar twaddle.

Hell, they came out and said they were against the idea of introducing café bar licenses because they felt that such increased access to alcohol would mean more people were likely to become alcoholics.

Nothing to do with it meaning they might have more competition.

I'd like to see an unlimited amount of licenses available (for a high price), to anywhere that met health and safety requirements. Let them have actual proper competition, we'll see what will happen to drink prices then. The good pubs will thrive, the bad ones will go out of business.

G_R

you can go into your local supervalu/centra/tesco whatever and get a 20 pack or Miller/Bud/Coors Light for less than 20euro usually.

you can then go into your local pub and get one bottle of Miller/Bus/Coors for €4.80.

Even if the publican bought his order on centra. he'd be getting the stuff for €1 a bottle. I know they have overheads to cover and all but even if they sold em at €2.50, its a 150% markup, alot more people will come in, increase volume, and over time increase profits.

Until they see the reality that people are just not willing to pay 5x the price for the privilage of sitting in your lovely pub, they are going to keep on losing customers

thats my 2c

Cremated

super_furry wrote: »

This. I'd spend more on Friday and Saturday night in the pub rather than drinking at home if the price of a pint wasn't so expensive.

Exactly, the last time I was out in town was about 4 months ago and a pint bottle of Bulmers cost me 6.80/90,

it's a joke,

reduce your prices and people will not mind coming into the pubs earlier or more often,

why go out when you can drink with your friends at home in comfort for a fraction of the price, ( if you like drinking with your friends at home that is )...

Amalgam

A dubious amount of TD's have a direct interest\business link to the drinks\vintner profession.

K-9

dannym08 wrote: »

you can go into your local supervalu/centra/tesco whatever and get a 20 pack or Miller/Bud/Coors Light for less than 20euro usually.

Only in Ireland could this be seen as a good thing!

G_R

K-9 wrote: »

Only in Ireland could this be seen as a good thing!

i never said it was a good thing, i just said that when off licenses can sell it that cheap, there is no reason pubs charge nearly a fiver

K-9

dannym08 wrote: »

i never said it was a good thing, i just said that when off licenses can sell it that cheap, there is no reason pubs charge nearly a fiver

I know, was making a different point.

Why is it 4/5 times the price? Well, it isn't Tesco or Dunnes!

Pubs will have to lower prices but unfortunately that means more super pubs lacking character. We'll all be going to Tesco pubs and the "local" will be gone.

RandolphEsq

The vintners, i.e.publicans, do not read these Boards (too uneducated and simple) do our critiqueing will go unheeded. Ah well, pubs will just go out of business and the **** pubicans can starve along with their families.

"Oh yes, I am a noble pillar of upstandingness and moral superioroty that all of the 'common man' should follow. I am a publican."

Suck my balls publicans!

Amalgam

Someone was moaning about the Sky fees (for Pubs) on RTE1 Radio 1 at lunchtime, like it was forced on them.

stepbar

The publicans. How I love the publican. A publican who feels it's okay to charge 5 quid for a pint (or if it's Gogertys' in Temple Bar 6eur or so).

I'll always harp back to the North when it comes to the price of a pint etc.

I live fairly close to the border. The nearest town to me is Enniskillen. Down in Enniskillen one can get a pint of beer for a pound. Yes a pound (in Wetherspoons). And if anyone knows it, it's not a very exciting place and it definatly hasn't got the Sky Sports and the lark. Jeasus you might think it's a pint of p1ss eh? Nope quite acceptable beer TBH. And as well as that if you want a dinner with your beer you can expect to pay around 5 pounds (inc beer), which is a little over 6 euro. If anyone can tell me where you could get such a deal, I'll be there with bells on.

In fact, one night my friends were talking about how if we were 20 miles away in the republic, the same pint of beer might cost twice as much as the pub we were in. Doing a roundup of the pints, the most expensive we came across was Magners (Bulmers up here) for 2.50 STG a pint (bottle). The rest came in at around the 2 pound mark. You'd be lucky to get it up here for around the 4eur mark.

Considering the majority of pubs are family owned the logic astounds me. I know of one niteclub / pub / hotel that is run by a family. Basically every saturday mum, da and the 4 kids are out serving the pints, carrying out the bouncing and taking in the money etc. Right up to 6 months ago same club charged 10 eur to get into the night club (at Christmas they charged 12!!!!). They now charge 8. And believe me 8 eur is still too much (as it's a sh1te hole).

Now they couldn't be that badly off considering that they have NO staffing costs as they all own a share of the business (or the siblings will at least eventually). I'm sure they pay themselves but considering that there is profit to be made off every drink sold, wages are paid out of that. It's very different to paying an outsider directly. Maybe I don't understand the pub trade very well but it all seems a bit crazy to say the least.

Amalgam

Interesting post stepbar, is there any interest in Wetherspoons setting a chain up in the South?

Oh.. do they serve Fuller's London Pride up north, or any other Fuller's brews in the Wetherspoons you visit? If the answer is yes, I might move.

stepbar

Amalgam wrote: »

Interesting post stepbar, is there any interest in Wetherspoons setting a chain up in the South?

Oh.. do they serve Fuller's London Pride up north, or any other Fuller's brews in the Wetherspoons you visit? If the answer is yes, I might move.

They did try (on Capel St), but pulled out. They were going to spend 3 million back in 2005 which in fairness was not a massive price back then. I think the impeading smoking ban stopped them which is funny because it happened in the UK a bit after.

I was in Manchester the weekend before last (at a Utd game, Thanks cri). I could go on another rant about the cost of hotel rooms but I'll save that for another thread. Lets put it this way. I paid 85 pounds for a hotel room in Manchester (2 double beds) for one night (saturday) but yet in Westpost last weekend I paid 400 eur for two nights (1 double bed - Friday and Saturday). The only difference was that we got an evening meal. In fact the one in Manchester was a 4 star, and the one in Westport was a 3 star.

There's something seriously fcuked about this country.

stepbar

BTW I appeciated that wages are different up the north. However minimum wage is not too far removed from here. So it can't be all down to the cost of labour considering the cost of labour is small in terms of Turnover. The logic still astounds me.

However, I'll add that my old man spent 80k on wages in 08' which represented about 33% of his T/O. 80k on 4 appentice electricans and 1 fully qualified electrician (part time). The crazy thing was that his profit from all this was less than 10%. So maybe it's not all that crazy at all. I can safely say that that figure will never be seen again.

K-9

If there was proper competition, we'd have Witherspoons etc.

Then we'd moan, where is the local quiet pub gone!

ScumLord

stepbar wrote: »

I live fairly close to the border. The nearest town to me is Enniskillen. Down in Enniskillen one can get a pint of beer for a pound. Yes a pound (in Wetherspoons).

I think I was in a few of those wetherspoons in Birmingham, big carvery place? Great deals on meals, you fill up your plate and can even go back for more. I think we got a meal for £3 each and those plates where full to the brim.

I really hope Ireland doesn't end up like the UK, most of England is a bland wasteland of the same chains repeated over and over.

ShooterSF

K-9 wrote: »

Only in Ireland could this be seen as a good thing!

They could be cheaper I guess but it's still quite good.

OPENROAD

Amalgam wrote: »

Interesting post stepbar, is there any interest in Wetherspoons setting a chain up in the South?

Oh.. do they serve Fuller's London Pride up north, or any other Fuller's brews in the Wetherspoons you visit? If the answer is yes, I might move.

I absolutely love London Pride, a proper drink

stepbar

ScumLord wrote: »

I think I was in a few of those wetherspoons in Birmingham, big carvery place? Great deals on meals, you fill up your plate and can even go back for more. I think we got a meal for £3 each and those plates where full to the brim.

I really hope Ireland doesn't end up like the UK, most of England is a bland wasteland of the same chains repeated over and over.

Aye but the mad thing is that usually a lot of the chain pubs over there are run on a lease basis (can't comment on wetherspoons but I don't think they operate this way).

Anytime I'm up in Enniskillen I allways go to Wetherspoons because it's the best value around (for what it is, average food). No refills up there unfortunately

OPENROAD

ScumLord wrote: »

I really hope Ireland doesn't end up like the UK, most of England is a bland wasteland of the same chains repeated over and over.

Hasn't been my experience in London, plenty of choice available, very good selection of beers, something our pubs lack.

meglome

It's amazing the number of people I know who are bringing booze out to the pub with them. I haven't seen the likes of that since we were students and even then it was less. For anyone who drinks spirits you're talking a good €7 for say a vodka with mixer in Dublin city centre. Things are starting to change as they see their businesses going down the toilet from charging too much. I have a strong feeling the pub landscape will be very different here in a year, price wise especially.