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The 5/3/1 Discussion Thread

Hanley

Lets play nice!

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brianthebard

kevpants wrote: »

It would throw things out of kilter if you removed it. The thing about it, even if you don't progress that much on it is that it gives you an extra 3 days of lower body recovery (if you're training 3 days a week). If it's removed you are gonna end up going straight from squats to deadlifts and I suppose it's just the structure Wendler found optimal.

It gives you a chance to do some extra upper body assistance as well without having to bench twice a week.

When you think about it overhead strength is conspicuous by its absence from powerlifting. Realistically if you want to get overall strong you'd be mad to neglect it. It's not a "powerlifting program", I mean it's designed with unequipped lifting only in mind and Wendler expressed his dissatisfaction with only being able to squat, bench & deadlift but not being able to do anything else.

That's a good point about lower body recovery hadn't thought about that.

Another question; I'm working on my dissertation atm and although I'm enjoying gyming four days a week I'm thinking of cutting back to 2 until its done. How much assistance do you reckon I should do on those days if I do military/deads and bench/squat? Do you think 5x10 for both lifts on both days is silly? I know this is sort of covered in the book (which I did read! :P ) I'm just curious to hear other people's thoughts.

Roper

Just to fling my oar straight into this discussion without heed...

I think it's sort of funny that the whole concept behind the Wendler programme is what most reputable strength coaches* have been advocating since forever, but it takes a personality, a name like Wendler's to bring it home to a lot of people. Now I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with this or indeed any other programme, just that I find it amazing that guys I know who have been lifting for years are now spouting on about how they don't need to test their one rep max, and about how overhead pressing is soooo important, when literally 3 months ago they wouldn't hear of anything beyond squat/dead/bench. I mean, 5/3/1 is massive on interwebs now. There are probably fitness and lifting fora the world over having this same discussion. It's amazing how things can change.

*for reputable, read "those without a massive internet presence

Kev M

It sounds like a good program. I mean there are people out there on different message boards pretty much saying that it's the single best thing they've ever done in their lives and that Wendler is the next coming of Jesus Christ. Can't really get a better advertisement than that.

I'll probably start it September, just to be a sheep, nah seriously.

itsallaboutheL

Kev M wrote: »

I'll probably start it September, just to be a sheep, nah seriously.

Ditto, this whole not being a sheep thing is just for stupid people like me, who take 8 million ideas and get **** all progress!!

kevpants

Roper wrote: »

Just to fling my oar straight into this discussion without heed...

I think it's sort of funny that the whole concept behind the Wendler programme is what most reputable strength coaches* have been advocating since forever, but it takes a personality, a name like Wendler's to bring it home to a lot of people. Now I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with this or indeed any other programme, just that I find it amazing that guys I know who have been lifting for years are now spouting on about how they don't need to test their one rep max, and about how overhead pressing is soooo important, when literally 3 months ago they wouldn't hear of anything beyond squat/dead/bench. I mean, 5/3/1 is massive on interwebs now. There are probably fitness and lifting fora the world over having this same discussion. It's amazing how things can change.

True. And a welcome change. I mean where does everyone who can't afford or doesn't know a S&C coach go for info? The world wide intersite that's where. If an idea isn't put forth fairly accesibly there it's not going to filter down to the great training unwashed.

Personally I find the ironing to be delicious that t-nation featured it, this program is the antithesis of that very site IMO. No site in history has pushed more new trainees into stupid programs than they.

Roper wrote: »

*for reputable, read "those without a massive internet presence

Terrible thing to say about Will, Barry

Dirk_Diggler

Can anyone copy and paste the article from post #3? I can't access that site in work but I'd like to give it a read. Or maybe PM it to me? Thanks!

Transform

sounds and looks very similar to what brooks kubik, stewart mcrobert, ken leistner et al have been banging on about for donkeys years.

Has always served me well over the years also.

Finally if you look at the majority of running programs e.g. 10km running it includes a 3 week build up and then an off/light week.
Personally i do more yoga on the 4th week to keep myself supple and work out the tightness that can crop up

Roper

kevpants wrote: »

True. And a welcome change. I mean where does everyone who can't afford or doesn't know a S&C coach go for info? The world wide intersite that's where. If an idea isn't put forth fairly accesibly there it's not going to filter down to the great training unwashed.

Well that's my point. It's probably the first e-book by someone like Wendler that isn't all about high intensity or just fvckin lift and it's getting the credit it deserves. Most of that other t-nation stuff isn't what the guys who wrote it do in the gym anyway, it's just playing to the market. I can think of one particularly famous "author" who wrote a very popular programme who hadn't seen the inside of a gym for a long time before that, or since, due to injury. It's just funny that the same people who a few years ago were waffling on about High Intensity are now converted to this. It just shows that some people need heros.

Personally I find the ironing to be delicious that t-nation featured it, this program is the antithesis of that very site IMO. No site in history has pushed more new trainees into stupid programs than they.

Well i've said my piece about cookie cutter programmes before and while this is one to an extent, I think it's better thought out than most and actually won't get dumb people hurt. But you know how it will be. Some guy issitting reading the e-book right now saying "yeah, but I need a max effort deadlift day, so I'll stick one in"

Terrible thing to say about Will, Barry

Remember he has a minus internet presence according to some. The more people read, the less they want to train with him. That includes me.

Oh and as for knowing or being able to afford an S&C coach... I heard they're down to just €79 per month or €799 per year in one Dublin gym. It really is amazing value to work with such great staff. Where is that gym? Anyone? I know it's opening in August...

I'll just go and kill myself now:p

Dragan

brianthebard wrote: »

That's a good point about lower body recovery hadn't thought about that.

Another question; I'm working on my dissertation atm and although I'm enjoying gyming four days a week I'm thinking of cutting back to 2 until its done. How much assistance do you reckon I should do on those days if I do military/deads and bench/squat? Do you think 5x10 for both lifts on both days is silly? I know this is sort of covered in the book (which I did read! :P ) I'm just curious to hear other people's thoughts.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say if you are cutting down to two days then you simply won't be able to follow the program?

How long is your dissertation gonna take you, and when can you hit the 4 day cycle again?

joker77

Have to say I'm liking the sounds of this. I'm just getting back into strength training the last couple of weeks and need to mix things up.

For the guys who've been doing this a few weeks - how do you think it would work doing this Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri?

brianthebard

Dragan wrote: »

I'm going to go out on a limb and say if you are cutting down to two days then you simply won't be able to follow the program?

How long is your dissertation gonna take you, and when can you hit the 4 day cycle again?

Well the only essential seems to be that you get all the work sets on the main lifts done, from what I remember there was a two day template in the book that combined military and deads on day one and bench and squat on day two.
I'm thinking of going to finish the second cycle next week and go straight into a two a week cycle and then deloading from when that finishes until I get the dissertation handed in. Then I should be able to return to 4day weeks.

What I'm really wondering about is assistance or lack of in a 2 day plan, I don't think 5x10 on both big lifts would work; I'm thinking more press or triceps and chins on day one (maybe 3x8 on each) and press and good mornings or front squats (3x8, maybe 2x20 on the rows) on day two.

Dirk_Diggler

Dirk_Diggler wrote: »

Can anyone copy and paste the article from post #3? I can't access that site in work but I'd like to give it a read. Or maybe PM it to me? Thanks!

Ah go on..

cardio,shoot me

hmmm, this westside or a deadlift specialisation thingy...

EDIT: it seems Ls confused by this post, did i say something retarded again?

dave80

How to Build Pure Strength
by Bryan Krahn

I'm only 30 seconds into my interview with Jim Wendler, and things are already off to a rocky start.

I'd asked the author of 5/3/1: The Simplest and Most Effective Training System to Increase Raw Strength, to talk to TMUSCLE readers about his program, and quickly learned that although Jim is passionate about 5/3/1, the last thing he wants to do is sell anyone on it.

"Just so we're clear," he says, "either people want to do 5/3/1, or they don't. I really want to help people, but if they won't take my advice there's nothing I can do. That's fine by me. I don't fight the battles. I just don't ****ing care."

A long pause follows, and I wonder if this has become the shortest interview in TMUSCLE history.

Then he throws me a bone. "Look, arguing about strength training theory is stupid," he says. "And the reason I came up with 5/3/1 was that I wanted a program that eliminated stupid thoughts from my head and just let me go into the weight room and get **** done. I've been training for 20 years, and this is what I've learned."

A Powerlifter's Progress
If you don't know who Jim Wendler is, you're probably not very strong.

He's senior editor and sales manager for Elite Fitness Systems, and Elite founder Dave Tate's right-hand man. He cut his teeth in the strength game on the college gridiron, first as a player with the University of Arizona and later as a strength and conditioning coach with the University of Kentucky. Then came years under the bar at Westside Barbell, which overlapped with his affiliation with Tate at Elite.

To mere mortals, his powerlifting accomplishments in the 275-pound weight class seem inhuman: a 1,000-pound squat, 675-pound bench press, 700-pound deadlift, and a 2,375 total.

Wendler disagrees. "I wasn't strong at all," he says. "I could waddle up to the monolift and squat, but I couldn't do anything else. Really, all I could do was squat, bench, and deadlift."

Now happily retired from powerlifting at age 34, and 50 pounds lighter, he has different aspirations: "I want be able to do a bunch of different activities and still kick ass in the weight room. I want to be as mobile, flexible, strong, and in as good a condition as I possibly can. That's how I came up with 5/3/1."

Philosophy 531
If you're searching for the next great training breakthrough, one that will completely change the way you look at weight lifting, 5/3/1 probably isn't the program for you. On the contrary, Wendler describes the core philosophy behind 5/3/1 as "the basic tenets of strength training that have stood the test of time."

Basic multi-joint lifts: "The bench press, parallel squat, deadlift, and standing press have been the staples of any strong man's repertoire. Those who ignore these lifts are generally the people who suck at them. If you get good at those, you'll get good at other stuff, as they have such a huge carryover."

Starting light: While it may seem counterintuitive to take weight off the bar when the goal is to add weight to it, Wendler asserts that starting lighter allows you more room to progress forward. "This is a very hard pill to swallow for most lifters," he says. "They want to start heavy and they want to start now. This is nothing more than ego, and nothing will destroy a lifter faster, or for longer, than ego."

Progress slowly: This ties in with starting light, and keeps lifters who want to get big and strong yesterday from sabotaging their own progress. "People want a program that will add 40 pounds to their bench in eight weeks," Wendler explains. "When I ask how much their bench went up in the last year, they hang their heads in shame."

Break personal records: 5/3/1 is set up to allow you to break a variety of repetition records throughout the year. Notice that it's "rep records," and not "one-rep max." "Most people live and die by their one-rep max. To me, this is foolish and short sighted. If your squat goes from 225 x 6 to 225 x 9, you've gotten stronger."

5/3/1 by the Numbers
In 5/3/1, you're expected to train three or four days a week. Each workout is centered around one core lift — the aforementioned parallel squat, bench press, deadlift, and standing shoulder press.

Each training cycle lasts four weeks, with these set-rep goals for each major lift:

Week 1: 3 x 5
Week 2: 3 x 3
Week 3: 3 x 5, 3, 1
Week 4: deloading

Then you start the next cycle, using heavier weights on the core lifts. And that's where a seemingly simple system starts getting complicated.

You aren't just picking a weight to lift five times or three times or one time per set. You're using a specific percentage of your one-rep max. And not your full 1RM. The calculations are based on 90% of it.

So if your 1RM in the bench press is 315 pounds, you use 285 (90%) as the base number for your training-weight calculations. Here's how it works:

Week 1 Week 2 Week 3 Week 4
Set 1 65% x 5 70% x 3 75% x 5 40% x 5
Set 2 75% x 5 80% x 3 85% x 3 50% x 5
Set 3 85% x 5+ 90% x 3+ 95% x 1+ 60% x 5

When you see 5+, 3+, or 1+, that means you do the max reps you can manage with that weight, with the goal of setting a rep record in each workout.

Let's walk through the Week 1 workout for bench press. Using the example above, if your 1RM is 315, you calculate all your percentages from 90% of that max, or 285 pounds.

So you're using 185 (65% of 285) x 5, 215 x 5, and 240 or 245 x 5 or more. (In his 5/3/1 ebook, available for $20 here, Wendler provides detailed lists of weights and percentages so you don't have to carry a calculator with you to the gym.

After you finish the first cycle, you add five pounds to your 1RM calculations for the two upper-body lifts and 10 pounds to your 1RM for the squat and deadlift.

To Wendler, these specific instructions for 1RM percentages and monthly progression are what set 5/3/1 apart from less useful systems. "When I see a program that says three sets of eight reps? That's the stupidest ****ing thing ever. If it doesn't have a specific percentage based on a specific max, it's useless," he says. "That's the hallmark of someone who doesn't understand basic programming.

"With 5/3/1, you accomplish a goal every workout. Some programs have no ****ing progression from one day to the other."

Another unique feature is that final balls-out set in each workout. You don't have to go beyond the prescribed reps if you don't feel like it, but Wendler says there are real benefits to doing so.

"I've always thought of doing the prescribed reps as simply testing your strength," he says. "Anything over and above that builds strength, muscle, and character."

He does, however, want to dismiss any parallels you might see with HIT-type programs. Yes, that last set is the one that puts hair on your chest, but Wendler says the system doesn't work without the sets that precede it. "I tried cutting those out but I got smaller and weaker. There might be only one really hard set, but the other sets are still quality work."

Some Assistance, Please?
Along with the bench press, squat, shoulder press, and deadlift, 5/3/1 includes assistance exercises to build muscle, prevent injury, and create a balanced physique. Wendler's favorites are strength-training staples like chin-ups, dips, lunges, and back extensions. But he warns not to go ape**** with these supplemental exercises:

"They should complement the training, not detract from it. You must have a very strong reason for doing an exercise. If you don't, scrap it and move on."

His 5/3/1 ebook includes a number of different ways to choose and implement assistance work, with memorable categories like Boring But Big (Wendler's version of a hypertrophy program), The Triumvirate (three lifts per workout; an example is shown below), Dave Tate's Periodization Bible, and Wendler's favorite, I'm Not Doing Jack ****, aptly named for those times when you only have time to hit the PR in your key lift and leave.

"People laugh and call me lazy, while they twit around in their three-hour workout making zero progress," he says. "Sometimes, instead of what you do in the weight room, it's what you don't do that will lead to success."

5/3/1 and its Discontents
Wendler has received a lot of positive feedback from trainees who used 5/3/1 to overcome plateaus in strength and size development. "And it's not just from advanced guys," he says. "I received a thank-you from a guy who went from 135 for one on the bench to 135 for 17."

But the program has also received criticism from lifters on two fronts: that lifters are told to start too light, and build too slow.

"Start too light" refers to Wendler's insistence that the prescribed loads are calculated off of 90% of the lifter's 1RM. If your 1RM in the bench is 315, why calculate loads off a 1RM of 285?

Wendler has a characteristically blunt response: "People who freak out about the 90% thing are usually weak in the first place. You don't need to operate at your max to increase your max. Why people get so bent out of shape about taking two steps back if it means they'll be taking 10 steps forward is beyond me."

Then there's the veracity problem. Few lifters are willing to acknowledge their true 1RM.

"I do a seminar basically every week," Wendler says, his voice rising. "Every time, without fail, when I ask someone what their one-rep max is, I get this: 'Wellll, about three years ago I hit 365 for a triple, but that was when I was training heavier ...' Most guys just don't have a ****ing clue.

"By using the 90%, I account for this bull****. By using weights they can actually handle, guys are building muscle, avoiding burnout, and most importantly, making progress every workout."

Wendler acknowledges that none of this is exactly revolutionary. "I learned this in my freshman year," he says. "I've always made my best gains when I left just a bit in the tank."

As you can imagine, he doesn't think much of the "build too slow" criticism, either. "People tell me that they don't want to take three months to build up their strength," he says. "Where are you going to be in a year? **** that, where are you going to be in five years, when you're still benching 205 with your ass halfway off the bench?

"The pursuit of strength is not a six-month or one-year pursuit. It's a 30-year pursuit for me. You gotta be smart about it. But everyone wants everything right now."

Countdown to 5/3/1
Ready to take 5/3/1 for a test drive? To ensure your success, Jim Wendler cautions to avoid these four common rookie mistakes.

Don't customize: This probably applies to any program published on this site, but it especially matters for 5/3/1. You must do the program the way it's written.

"People ask the craziest ****," Wendler says, his voice getting louder again. " 'Can I combine 5/3/1 with Westside for Skinny Bastards?' Why not just do one or the other and make progress?

"These same guys then bitch three months later on some message board that the program didn't work. That's like complaining that your girl got pregnant despite you using a Trojan condom, except you forget to mention you were wearing the condom on your freakin' fingers."

Take it easy with the assistance work: "Some people look for the magic combination of assistance exercises, and completely under-rate the key lift," Wendler notes. "I call that majoring in the minors. Assistance work is just that — assistance. Do one or two exercises for five sets of 10, or maybe do a few more exercises for fewer sets. It's assistance. It doesn't ****ing matter.

"I sometimes just give people a rep number and let them make it up on their own. Say, 'push movement: 60 reps,' or 'pull: 100 reps.' It's all just working the muscle."

Start with the right weights: This was covered already, but Wendler says it bears repeating: "I don't know how many times people have blown away their PRs because they learn to train with some restraint and actually use weights that they can handle with good form."

Progress slowly: "I tell guys that the longer your stride, the quicker you'll tear a hamstring," says the former Division I football player. "But the problem is, people live for today's workout. No one seems to have the vision anymore to look beyond just what they are doing today.

"I plan my training for a year. I know exactly what I want to do, and what I want to accomplish 12 months in advance. And I know what five or 10 pounds a month adds up to over the course of a year.

"The game of lifting isn't an eight-week pursuit. It doesn't last as long as your latest program does. It's a lifetime pursuit."

Sample Workout: The Triumvirate
As mentioned earlier, The Triumvirate uses three exercises per workout, one of which is a core lift. Before each workout, do a warm-up that includes mobility, flexibility, something to raise your core temperature and heart rate (like rope jumping), and foam rolling.

(Wendler recommends adding two or three conditioning sessions per week, using hill sprints, Prowler pushes, or whatever else works for you.)

In all workouts, rest 3 to 5 minutes between sets of the core lift (the first one in the workout), and 1 to 2 minutes between sets of the assistance exercises.

Remember that you're calculating percentages based on 90% of your current 1RM in each lift, not from the actual 1RM.

Workout 1

Exercise Sets Reps % 1RM
1) Standing shoulder press
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
Week 4 3
5
3
5/3/1
5
65,75,85
70,80,90
75,85,95
40,50,60
2) Dip 5 15
3) Chin-up 5 10

Workout 2

Exercise Sets Reps % 1RM
1) Deadlift
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
Week 4 3
5
3
5/3/1
5
65,75,85
70,80,90
75,85,95
40,50,60
2) Good morning 5 12
3) Hanging leg raise 5 15

Workout 3

Exercise Sets Reps % 1RM
1) Bench press
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
Week 4 3

5
3
5/3/1
5
65,75,85
70,80,90
75,85,95
40,50,60
2) Dumbbell chest press 5 15
3) Dumbbell row 5 10

Workout 4

Exercise Sets Reps % 1RM
1) Squat
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
Week 4 3
5
3
5/3/1
5
65,75,85
70,80,90
75,85,95
40,50,60
2) Leg press 5 15
3) Leg curl 5 10

Wrapping It Up
To look at 5/3/1 on your computer screen, it appears simple enough (unless you're intimidated by the math involved). That's exactly what Wendler says he was after. Getting big and strong just doesn't have to be complicated.

The keys to making it work:

• Start with a realistic idea of your one-rep max, and follow Wendler's instructions to base all training weights on 90% of that max. You can make it really easy on yourself by spending a couple of workouts working up to a four-rep-max set of each of the four core lifts. Your 4RM should be about 90% of your 1RM. Once you have that 4RM, you can skip a step in your calculations and just use it for all your subsequent percentages.

• The final set of your core lift in each workout is the one that produces mass and strength, so give it everything you have, and get as many reps as you can with that weight. (The exceptions are the deloading workouts in Week 4. You're giving your muscles a break, not trying to establish new PRs.)

• When you start a new four-week cycle, add five pounds to your 1RMs for bench and shoulder presses and 10 pounds for squats and deadlifts, and recalculate training weights using the new numbers.

• It works best if you train four times a week, although three times a week could work as well, as long as you train all four core lifts before repeating. (In other words, don't skip one so you can do the other three once each week.) Don't train more than two days in a row.

• If you want to see the results of 5/3/1, you have to do the program as written. As soon as you start customizing it, it's no longer 5/3/1. You might like your own version of it better than Wendler's original, but you can't attribute your success or failure to the guy who wrote the program unless you're actually doing the program as he wrote it.

And remember, if you want more information about the program, along with a wider range of choices for assistance exercises, pick up Wendler's 5/3/1 ebook here.

d'Oracle

:pac:

PM would have done.

dave80

d'Oracle wrote: »

:pac:

PM would have done.

posted it in the thread for others that cant access it in work, sure i cant even access boards in work!

cardio,shoot me

d'Oracles too lazy to scroll :P

itsallaboutheL

d'Oracle wrote: »

:pac:

PM would have done.

Wouldn't fit in a PM i tried

Vegeta

dave80 wrote: »

sure i cant even access boards in work!

My personal nightmare

So let me get this right,

Every session (bar 4th week), the last set of the core lift is done for as many reps as possible with the specified % for that week.

itsallaboutheL

Vegeta wrote: »

My personal nightmare

So let me get this right,

Every session (bar 4th week), the last set of the core lift is done for as many reps as possible with the specified % for that week.

yes

d'Oracle

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

d'Oracles too lazy to scroll :P

The treads on my mouse wheel are worn out.
And My fingers are tired from deadlifting.

BossArky

Can the people who have experience with 5/3/1 post details of the assistance exercises and styles they are running.

Question 1: How did you go about choosing your assistance exercises. What worked? What didn't

Big but boring
I ain't doing Jack Sh!t
Bodyweight
etc....

Question 2: What are you finding the hardest? Sets of 5, 3 or 1? Or, does it vary from cycle to cycle?

I'm guessing this is aimed at Hanley, kevpants, Podge57 and BriantheBard as the active people I see using 5/3/1 in the logs.

kevpants

brianthebard wrote: »

That's a good point about lower body recovery hadn't thought about that.

Another question; I'm working on my dissertation atm and although I'm enjoying gyming four days a week I'm thinking of cutting back to 2 until its done. How much assistance do you reckon I should do on those days if I do military/deads and bench/squat? Do you think 5x10 for both lifts on both days is silly? I know this is sort of covered in the book (which I did read! :P ) I'm just curious to hear other people's thoughts.

Didn't see this Brian sorry.

Depends on how long the 2 day a week is gonna go on for? I mean the 3 day split is my favourite over the 4. Could you manage 3 days a week with no assistance work for a few weeks? So 3 x 20 minute sessions a week?

Alternatively I think there is something in the manual about combining days if you like. I suppose the main thing to remember is to get the work done on the main sets and forget about assistance if it doesn't suit your time constraints.

In all honesty I think you'd be alright in the short term doing 2 days a week with assistance. It's not going to be the end of the world. If you could fit a 3rd session in every now and again it'd be no harm. You've a few options I think.

dave80

Q 1: i alternate triumvirate and boring but big

Q 2: i find the 5 the hardest cause i was used to doin lower reps before starting this program

kevpants

BossArky wrote: »

Can the people who have experience with 5/3/1 post details of the assistance exercises and styles they are running.

Question 1: How did you go about choosing your assistance exercises. What worked? What didn't
Big but boring

I ain't doing Jack Sh!t

Bodyweight

etc....

Question 2: What are you finding the hardest? Sets of 5, 3 or 1? Or, does it vary from cycle to cycle?

I'm guessing this is aimed at Hanley, kevpants, Podge57 and BriantheBard as the active people I see using 5/3/1 in the logs.

It's hard to say what assistance stuff really works because if you make a gain in say the bench it's only theory that it must have been the face pulls or the dips or the chins or the inverted rows. You can't say what assistance really works but generally speaking for upper body you should pull something (chins, rows etc) and push something (dips, DB Bench). Lower body do abs, some kind of posterior chain movement and maybe some single leg or leg muscle isolation stuff.

I don't know about the others but it becomes pretty obvious what's letting you down in certain areas so you work on them, for example it is as plain as the nose on your face that I have no triceps so I'm gonna spend the next while doubling up on them. It's pretty obvious that my abs get fried on heavy squats so I make sure they're a priority.

But there's a reason there's an option to do "Jack Shit". The assistance stuff isn't the be all and end all and like I said above it's just speculation that one works over another. The best thing to do is cover the bases and then maybe concentrate further on any glaring weaknesses.

EDIT: Oh and the 5 day is the bitch. Dunno why. Tried to theorize why this is so before and can't explain it so I won't try but it sucks.

brianthebard

BossArky wrote: »

Can the people who have experience with 5/3/1 post details of the assistance exercises and styles they are running.

Question 1: How did you go about choosing your assistance exercises. What worked? What didn't
Big but boring

I ain't doing Jack Sh!t

Bodyweight

etc....

Question 2: What are you finding the hardest? Sets of 5, 3 or 1? Or, does it vary from cycle to cycle?

I'm guessing this is aimed at Hanley, kevpants, Podge57 and BriantheBard as the active people I see using 5/3/1 in the logs.

Wendler loves his titles for the assistance! I did "big but boring" for last month and this month (sort of). I picked it cause I want to get bigger, and also doing that many reps on each of the main lifts after the big work set should help me work on form. Last month I did a lot more work than this month though and it really kicked my ass, I had to take a deload. This month (so far) I've only really done one big assistance lift after the main lift (eg snatch grip deads after deadlift) and feel much fresher so far, I don't think I'll have to deload until after the next cycle. So that might be something to keep in mind, getting the balance right between what you want to do and what you're capable of doing. One other thing to keep in mind is that big but boring takes forever, at least for me.

I also find the 5 week the hardest, which is messed up in my head since its the lowest weights. Its the deadlift day that's really killing me at the minute though which shouldn't be surprising since I hadn't really done over 5 reps in a year or more before this programme. After following 20 reps on squats for a while squat day doesn't bother me, so personally I think it might be more to do with how you trained that lift in the months prior, ie whether you're used to doing medium/high reps or not.

I should point out that I chose this programme because I was looking for something where I could lift heavy and protect my back and 5/3/1 does a good job of that, the 10% cut off your maxes ensures you can't get too close to your max, and if needs be I can just do one rep on the 5/3/1 squats or deads day and that's the work done, so I've found it a great way of compromising between lifting heavy and often, progressing with size and strength, and protecting myself from injury.

brianthebard

kevpants wrote: »

Didn't see this Brian sorry.

Depends on how long the 2 day a week is gonna go on for? I mean the 3 day split is my favourite over the 4. Could you manage 3 days a week with no assistance work for a few weeks? So 3 x 20 minute sessions a week?

Alternatively I think there is something in the manual about combining days if you like. I suppose the main thing to remember is to get the work done on the main sets and forget about assistance if it doesn't suit your time constraints.

In all honesty I think you'd be alright in the short term doing 2 days a week with assistance. It's not going to be the end of the world. If you could fit a 3rd session in every now and again it'd be no harm. You've a few options I think.

Thanks for the reply. The more I think about it, I realise I'm going to need to give more and more time to my dissertation from now on, so two days a week, with perhaps an occasional weekend session makes the most sense. Its the breaks in the day/week more than anything else that's getting in the way atm. I might possibly try supersetting assistance to get the heart pumping and get through the sessions quickly.

podge57

BossArky wrote: »

Question 1: How did you go about choosing your assistance exercises. What worked? What didn't

Question 2: What are you finding the hardest? Sets of 5, 3 or 1? Or, does it vary from cycle to cycle?

- I dont really follow the assistance templates, but i mostly use the exercises listed in the ebook, reps are usually 10-12, but i will go heavy-ish for one or two assistance sets, but i dont go below 6 reps on those either.
When choosing exercises, i just pick ones that i feel have helped me before, or if i feel something is holding me back

- The 5-day is def. the toughest for deads and benching, dont mind it as much for squats tho

kevpants

brianthebard wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. The more I think about it, I realise I'm going to need to give more and more time to my dissertation from now on, so two days a week, with perhaps an occasional weekend session makes the most sense. Its the breaks in the day/week more than anything else that's getting in the way atm. I might possibly try supersetting assistance to get the heart pumping and get through the sessions quickly.

Actually, have a look at page 62 of the manual. As I suspected you can do whatever suits basically!

brianthebard

kevpants wrote: »

Actually, have a look at page 62 of the manual. As I suspected you can do whatever suits basically!

Yep that's pretty much what I intend to do.