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Child Item

Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

gurramok

In short - Man's home pelted by eggs, man chases youngsters and he is shot by one of them.

13 yr old arrested so far

Shocking :mad:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1208/eastwall.html
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhidsnojgbid/rss2/
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1208/1228571632040.html?via=mr

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johnnyrotten

The Government needs to take their fingers out of their holes and do something.
Perhaps a mandatory sentence of 30 years without parole for posession of an illegially held firearm.

oceanclub

Dragan wrote: »

And how do you know the kid was not making the parents life hell as well?

So, we have a whole community who allowed local kids to run amoke and cause terror and they want to blame the parents for their own inability to stand up for themselves?

Sorry, but there seems to be a huge contradiction here. If the community do indeed take action into their own hands - even only as far as protesting - they are being referred to as vigilantes.

Yet you're saying it's their fault, and not the parents, when the children run amok and murder people, and that therefore they should do something.

Which is it?

P.

gazzer

Dragan wrote: »

I went through my teenage years with a complete inability to deal with what was going on in my life and i turned to drugs, to violence and all the usual ones.

Why? Because i wanted to.

Eventually i would get back onto the straight and narrow but i put my parents through hell, and all they ever wanted for me was to be safe and happy and to have opportuinity, so when i see rubbish like "it's the parents fault" being trotted out i take that as a direct insult to my parents who were good, honest, hard working people.
.

Thats very interesting. I have met you a few times in the gym and you seem to be very focused and grounded so its good to hear an example of somebody that went through the bad times and was able to come out the other end. When you were going through your bad period do you think that you would ever have used a gun on somebody if you had have had one in your possession?

Latchy

Mairt wrote: »

I could have typed all that too!.. Almost the same here, although my son is only 17, but is hoping to study business management too.

Bad parenting has a huge amount to do with our social ills, but las Dragan posted earlier (and I've often thought Dragan to be wise beyond his years and life experience) teenage boys are the stupiest, the dumb things to grace shoe leather (ok not his EXACT words, but I got his meaning).

How in gods name a child got his hands on a gun beats the sh*t out of me, but I doubt Daddy gave it to him.

Teenage boys do live in the twilight zones a lot and sometimes they have to learn the hard way some harsh lessons about life. I have had many moements with son when he 'knew it all ' and I was a bit like that myself . what teen isint ? I am glad him and I are more like mates than anything and he can come to us and know we were , and always will be there for him .It is strange to think that a lad so young could get his hand on a gun and do what he did .What was he thinking ? I do feel for that mans poor daughter/ family .

Incidently i use to wrork in Dublin with a mate from East wall and a nicer man you could not have met although i dont think he lives there now .

[Deleted User]

gurramok wrote: »

Kids with guns in this country, you only hear that sh1t happening in the likes of London.

That victim could of been anyone, hands up who has chased youngsters after their home been attacked in the past?

You wouldn't now, fear rules. :mad:

assuming these kids have illegal weapons then if the Gardai dont police up this mess of gun crime then I would be all for the US style of "home defence" weapons. Was at a best buy store in the states the other day with all sorts of weapons on display next to mp3 players and that. Not the society Im looking for but goddamn this cant go unchecked

Dragan

oceanclub wrote: »

Sorry, but there seems to be a huge contradiction here. If the community do indeed take action into their own hands - even only as far as protesting - they are being referred to as vigilantes.

Yet you're saying it's their fault, and not the parents, when the children run amok and murder people, and that therefore they should do something.

Which is it?

P.

Neither? Both? I am saying that the community needs to accept there own responsibility if they wish to push back on the parents as some people here are saying it is right to do.

There are many legal ways to take action against anti social behaviour.

gazzer wrote: »

Thats very interesting. I have met you a few times in the gym and you seem to be very focused and grounded so its good to hear an example of somebody that went through the bad times and was able to come out the other end. When you were going through your bad period do you think that you would ever have used a gun on somebody if you had have had one in your possession?

In all honesty, i don't know. Truth be told i don't go home very often because there is somebody there that i just cannot trust myself to be around. Even now, typing this, something deep inside me wants to kill that person.

If i had access to a weapon, through any means, when i was young and off the rails, would i have killed that person?

Possibly.

And that is being completely honest with you.

oceanclub

Neither? Both? I am saying that the community needs to accept there own responsibility if they wish to push back on the parents as some people here are saying it is right to do.

Well, why don't you suggest what the community should do, since some people here seem to regard even a protest as heavy-handed and fascist.

P.

[Deleted User]

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm a "bleeding heart liberal", and I would say that East Wall is a poor area and he probably never was taught right from wrong. I imagine the kid who shot this man is a severely damaged individual, everything from terrible parenting to a bad diet.

I wouldn't say he is a "victim" of his environment though, simply a product of it.

People get too wrapped up in the blame game in these situations. Blaming someone only works if the person cares what they have done and cares that you disapprove. I doubt this child cares. Ultimately blaming him is pointless. It might make you feel better but it doesn't actually do anything. There is no way to force him to feel guilty.

You either stick him in prison forever where he can't harm others, or you try and rehabilitate him.

Put him in prison. Try rehabilitate him at your own risk... he can live next to you after

Dragan

oceanclub wrote: »

Well, why don't you suggest what the community should do, since some people here seem to regard even a protest as heavy-handed and fascist.

P.

And where is the precedant for protest? Peoples kids go astray all the time, granted nmot often leading to this level of crime but it happens.

What good is marching on the house of parents who are mourning the same loss as the rest of the community, with the added problem that it was their CHILD who was involved?

Darragh29

What really gets to me about this is that there is no sense of urgency in dealing with this from the government, who ultimately are responsible for enforcing the law.

The only thing that seems to be occupying the mind of the man who is currently meant to be running this country is a fu*king useless treaty that was rejected months ago.

We have this watershed crime, people are looking around saying, "hang on a minute, now what the FU*K is going on here?", we have an economy that is starting to make the 1980's look like some sort of fu*king trip to Disneyland, and all we are seeing by way of a response is, "we must sort out Lisbon, we must sort out Lisbon, we must sort out Lisbon"???????????

oceanclub

Dragan wrote: »

And where is the precedant for protest? Peoples kids go astray all the time, granted nmot often leading to this level of crime but it happens.

What good is marching on the house of parents who are mourning the same loss as the rest of the community, with the added problem that it was their CHILD who was involved?

Fine, so tell me what the community should do.

P.

dlofnep

I love how people came in here with their swords of judgement attacking liberals on what we MAY think.

I have a few questions. How is it that a 13 year old was provided a gun? I hung out in some rough areas when I was 13, but the WORST a 13 year old could access anywhere in my city was probably a few cans of beer or a nodge. How on earth this 13 year old got a gun is beyond me.

So what do we do about it? All express our distaste for a little 13 year old scumbag and tell what we'd like to do to him? Lovely. But we all know that won't happen. He will be kept in youth detention until he is 18, and will come out a worse or better person for it. I tell you, maybe he has no moral or soul - but carrying the weight of murder at 13 is a big thing to carry.

Why is nobody screaming to find out the source of this problem - and that's whoever provided a gun to this child. Was the child a ruthless little scumbag? Absolutely. But is he the sole problem in relation to this incident? Absolutely not.

[Deleted User]

Dragan wrote: »

LoL, and you didn't go to school with a single kid who was a little cnut but had decent parents, and if you turn around in 5 years time and, for whatever reason, turn to crime then that is your Father's fault?

Will you please get real Darragh.

A bit of responsibility please, the state can take children away from their parents id certain criteria are met. I think when a 13 yr old is running around shooting people that the state should take the child away.

Dragan

oceanclub wrote: »

Fine, so tell me what the community should do.

P.

Why? I don't live there, i don't know the community well enough, or it's problems, to be able to advise them on what is the correct course of action.

I can happily point out that the INCORRECT source of action is gun jumping, finger pointing and publically putting the blame on two parents when we don't have a clue what they went through with their kid.

dlofnep

oceanclub wrote: »

Fine, so tell me what the community should do.

P.

Find out who is providing their children with guns would be a start? Work together on creating a more tight-knit community, through sporting events or community BBQ's and so forth.. Create community watch to ensure that rogue elements of the community are reported.

Darragh29

dlofnep wrote: »

I love how people came in here with their swords of judgement attacking liberals on what we MAY think.

I have a few questions. How is it that a 13 year old was provided a gun? I hung out in some rough areas when I was 13, but the WORST a 13 year old could access anywhere in my city was probably a few cans of beer or a nodge. How on earth this 13 year old got a gun is beyond me.

So what do we do about it? All express our distaste for a little 13 year old scumbag and tell what we'd like to do to him? Lovely. But we all know that won't happen. He will be kept in youth detention until he is 18, and will come out a worse or better person for it. I tell you, maybe he has no moral or soul - but carrying the weight of murder at 13 is a big thing to carry.

Why is nobody screaming to find out the source of this problem - and that's whoever provided a gun to this child. Was the child a ruthless little scumbag? Absolutely. But is he the sole problem in relation to this incident? Absolutely not.

Agreed, and the people who have the answers to these questions are the kids parents and we should march on their house and sit outside it, and ask the parents to come out and answer plain and simple questions like:

(1) How on earth did your kid get his hands on a handgun & ammunition?

(2) Who in your opinion supplied him with these items?

(3) How did your son end up with the belief that it was acceptable to carry these items around the streets?

(4) How did your son end up with the belief that it is acceptable to point this weapon at an inocent man and shoot him head where he was standing?

Dyr

As I said earlier, give scumbags the environment in which they'll thrive and they will turn borderline kids into scumbags too. I've seen it happen when i was a kid and I see it now. We ignored it for 20 years and now we're reaping the benefits.

Having said that, my solution is to string a large percentage of the f***ers up on lamposts..

Guya

Dragan wrote: »

Neither? Both? I am saying that the community needs to accept there own responsibility if they wish to push back on the parents as some people here are saying it is right to do.

There are many legal ways to take action against anti social behaviour.

In all honesty, i don't know. Truth be told i don't go home very often because there is somebody there that i just cannot trust myself to be around. Even now, typing this, something deep inside me wants to kill that person.

If i had access to a weapon, through any means, when i was young and off the rails, would i have killed that person?

Possibly.

And that is being completely honest with you.

Thats exactly why this gang of murderers(they are all murderers- did any of them help that dying man?) needs to be given the harshest treatment they can get.
Its too late for Aidan O'Kane. Ireland has failed him.
We can make an example of his killers tho. When parents can't or won't disciplin a child, its time for others to help. That can only start with the people who make the laws.

These kids are wild. They're feril. One in particular, about 12 years old, is always on the streets, he's put out in the morning and left there. He doesn't go to school. He's one child that needs to see an example of the kids he knows from hanging out on Church Road. Its too late to ask why these particular kids have turned into animals. Its time to treat them like the animals they have become. Stop others turning into animals and treating people like prey.

These kids need to be whipped so bad that others like them can see consequences. Its basic human rights. One man lost his life this week, but he was also living in constant harrasment. And he's not the only one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyQ2qcO6F5Y

Tie them to each other around the spike and whip them til their ribs are raw. Will that stay with them? Will that be in the mind of someone considering the same kind of horror? Basic human rights.

oceanclub

Dragan wrote: »

Why? I don't live there, i don't know the community well enough, or it's problems, to be able to advise them on what is the correct course of action.

I can happily point out that the INCORRECT source of action is gun jumping, finger pointing and publically putting the blame on two parents when we don't have a clue what they went through with their kid.

Right, so you say the parents are not at fault at all, claim its actually the community is that at fault, but criticise any possible action they might take and offer no opinion as to what action they should take.

Are you a social worker for Haringey Council?

P.

oceanclub

Guya wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyQ2qcO6F5Y

On a tangent, it's interesting to see YouTube's priorities. I had a video removed the other day because it was a home video over which I'd added an audio clip of the Indiana Jones theme music.

Yet I've flagged the above clip of abuse and nothing has happened.

Because obviously the chance that John Williams might lose a soundtrack sale because I use 30 shagging seconds of his movie, is far more important than broadcasting the abuse of a disabled man.

P.

Dragan

oceanclub wrote: »

Right, so you say the parents are not at fault at all, claim its actually the community is that at fault, but criticise any possible action they might take and offer no opinion as to what action they should take.

Are you a social worker for Haringey Council?

P.

Sweet suffering jesus have you actually read what i have been typing or just hinging on the beats that suit you?

My contributions to the thread so far.

1) There is no point in turning on the parents and blaming them publically when we have no idea how they interacted with their kid.

2) The community can be up in arms all the want but they were happy enough to let things get to this point.

3) I am not aware of the community, nor it's basic workings, so i would not hazard to guess what they might or might not be willing to do to help this issue going forward.

Thats about it.

Guya

Bambi wrote: »

As I said earlier, give scumbags the environment in which they'll thrive and they will turn borderline kids into scumbags too. I've seen it happen when i was a kid and I see it now. We ignored it for 20 years and now we're reaping the benefits.

Having said that, my solution is to string a large percentage of the f***ers up on lamposts..

Yur right.

Two of my primary school class mates are knife murderers. One was pure evil. He stabbed me in the eye(missing the vital parts) with a sharpened pencil in 1st class. The other was an alright lad, goin along with the group, afraid to be seen as soft. Both in jail for murder before turning 20.

The evil one was always in trouble with the law, but never deterred. Everyone who knew him could see it was goin to happen. Just as everyone in East Wall knew these kids were goin to kill someone.

There's no shock about the death. Its about the gun in the hands of a 15 year old. A little man we pass every week, ready to laugh off his fight talk.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Guya wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyQ2qcO6F5Y

.

Poor Tony.

We discussed him in an Eastwall thread in the Dublin City Forum.

A more gentle soul you'll never meet.

Tony lives with his elderly father, he love's Liverpool and Elvis (he wears dozens of badges on his clothes showing his devotion), wear's liverpool scarfs and always has some news on Liverpool or just pass the time of day with you.

He's mildly mential retarded too, years ago before PC he'd have been described as 'slow'.

He's a lovely bloke who'll be put into an early graves by the little fvcktards down there.

It breaks my heart to view that clip.

SpookyDoll

the Gardai can round up and charge every little toerag in the country but whats the point if the courts can't deal with them appropriately.

do we not need to take action of some description and i am not taking baying crowds roaming the streets! I mean politicians, gardai, legislation, educational system, communities as a whole, parents etc etc

Correct.

Its time to stop pussyfooting around with "kids"
What a lot of people are failing to recognise is that kids have free will. Nobody made this little piece of filth steal the gun from where ever he got it from, no one made him torment the man, no one made him murder Aidan O'Kane in cold blood. It was executed and premeditated by him. He enjoyed it and feels no remorse. He thinks he is badass now.

He does not care, one little bit, in fact he is PROUD.

Now I remember being 13. I was smart, not one bit easily led, I was rebellious but I knew WELL the difference between right and wrong.
I decided what I did, not my social status, my parents, my school, society yada blah blah....ME

And so does this toerag know the difference between right and wrong. He needs to be tried as an adult.

The argument about the parents is academic, yes there are brutal parents with scumbag kids but there are also decent parents with sneaky, psychopathic kids who ENJOY hurting others. We cannot mitigate against that.

The kid took an educated chance, he knows he will get 4 years with Playstation and all the rest laid on, but to 13 year old write-off planning a life as a gangster thats just more stripes.

Why cant a "child" stand for murder, I'd like to know a good valid reason.

This little cnut feels untouchable the way things stand now, the law is an ass, with its revolving door and the likes of this one going through 50 or 60 times before 18 years old. Robbed cars, setting fires the usual....

The law has got to change, the likes of this little career gangster has got to be sent a message that this will not stand.

oceanclub

Dragan wrote: »

Sweet suffering jesus have you actually read what i have been typing or just hinging on the beats that suit you?

My contributions to the thread so far.

1) There is no point in turning on the parents and blaming them publically when we have no idea how they interacted with their kid.

2) The community can be up in arms all the want but they were happy enough to let things get to this point.

3) I am not aware of the community, nor it's basic workings, so i would not hazard to guess what they might or might not be willing to do to help this issue going forward.

Thats about it.

You haven't exactly rebutted anything I said. You're just repeating the words in a different order, and managing to contradict yourself into the bargain. You say you would not "hazard to guess what they might or might not be willing to do", but that doesn't stop you saying the community "were happy enough to let things get to this point".

So, you obviously feel you know the community enough to collectively blame them for this incident, while not knowing them enough to offer any suggestions.

P.

Guya

The community can be up in arms all the want but they were happy enough to let things get to this point.

Nobody in this community has been happy. Thats a ridiculous staement from someone who goes on to say he doesn't know the community.

I've seen the community garda laughing and jokin with a bunch of 13 year old girls that were hanging around, drinking on the street. His jaw dropped when he saw me.

The centra that opened on Church Road has been a focal point of the feril youths since it opened over a year ago. Since then they have grown bolder and had no consequences. They set one of my friends on fire in the chinese. What are the gardai doing? Patroling every inch of business area in Dublin from The Ilac to Terenure. Protecting the money from these kids and their big brothers.

But not protecting Aidan O'Kane or the rest of us. You know, the humans.

I never thought that I could identify with Americans on their gun policy. I see now the fear that makes a normal person want a gun. If this happened 2 corners from you, you'd understand.

Dragan

oceanclub wrote: »

You haven't exactly rebutted anything I said. You're just repeating the words in a different order, and managing to contradict yourself into the bargain. You say you would not "hazard to guess what they might or might not be willing to do", but that doesn't stop you saying the community "were happy enough to let things get to this point".

So, you obviously feel you know the community enough to collectively blame them for this incident, while not knowing them enough to offer any suggestions.

P.

LoL, so you are attaching two unrelated quotes to each other? Fair enough, If that is the type of argument you need to break it down to then knock yourself out.;)

oceanclub

Dragan wrote: »

LoL, so you are attaching two unrelated quotes to each other?

How on earth are these unrelated quotes? In one quote, you feel confident in collectively blaming the community for the incident. In the other, you say that don't know enough about the situation to offer any suggestions. You're contradicting yourself. Don't get annoyed with me for pointing this out.

P.

Guya

oceanclub wrote: »

How on earth are these unrelated quotes? In one quote, you feel confident in collectively blaming the community for the incident. In the other, you say that don't know enough about the situation to offer any suggestions. You're contradicting yourself. Don't get annoyed with me for pointing this out.

P.

Yeah ocean, he's a bit slow alright.

You've got bigger problems tho.
Lars Ullrick and James H hj H hetfield are gonna popa cap in yow ass.
Respect the copyright!

meathmannn

Well, firstly my symapthies to the victim and his family.
I know the area well, for those of you that don't, there are thousands of good people living in east wall. Like all areas there is a small group of families that are wild. East Wall doesn't generally make the news for this stuff cos the kids hang out further up town, the greater Sheriff Street area/Summerhill, or drinking and doing drugs in Fairview park.
The majority headline crimes in these areas are caused by teenagers, the juvenile courts have no teeth, so by the time these kids are 17 / 18 they've been through the system and figured out that there is no real punishment.
This isn't a new story, remember the "Bugsy Malone" teenage gang through the 1980's, it's members came from the same areas. In fact the same familes are still notorious for inner citycrime. Most of Irelands best known thugs came through the same areas. (We can't name them here, but any Sunday newspaper regularly mentions their many nick names)
Holding the parent's responsible? Fine in the normal world, but these parents dont care.
Early intervention is needed, children need to be taken from these parents at a young age, unfortunately family law doesn't work that way.
Drive by the chipper on Church Road any evening, dozens of teenagers hastling pasersby, setting fire to bins, stoning the firebrigade etc.