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**** you Ireland!

Archeron

While we have many reasons to be proud of our culture and our history and while we have the comparatively rare opportunity to make a statement to the world, we all know damn well that we wont. We will continue to be a poor mockery of UK culture and will be angry about how our version is not Irish enough despite the fact that we make no effort at all..
I absolutely love this country; its heritage, history and art, but in all fairness, inn 2007, who gives a ****?
Everything that may be potentially developmental is dismissed and Dublin continues to be a city with a massive faceless suburban population.

We have a magnificent heritage, but for some reason we wont express it to to the world...? Why? Some of the oldest structures in the world are from here, why dont we boast this heritage?

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kowloon

Well said Cionnfhaolaidh.
The best way to kill off the language is to force it on the kids at an early age, they've also done the same with poetry and literature in English, and to link further with the thread topic, Irish History.

davyjose

The only aspect of our culture that we are genuinely proud of is our f***king collective alcoholism. Add that to a below par infrastructure and inflated house prices and you pretty much could sum this country up.
It's great though, because when you've spent 1/3 of a million for a house in Meath and you spend 20 hours a week commuting in your 30,000 Euro hatchback, you get to spend your entire weekend in the boozer.

Shudder!!! Dantè should have added an extra circle of hell

Laslo

Yeah, I hate everything about Ireland and Irish people too. You're all the bloody same. Except me, I'm perfect and I never make sweeping generalisations.

SimpleSam06

Archeron wrote: »

We have a magnificent heritage, but for some reason we wont express it to to the world...? Why? Some of the oldest structures in the world are from here, why dont we boast this heritage?

You need to look at the recent historical context before you start hurling bricks. Up until relatively recently, the country was cripplingly poor. Theres only so much culture you can express when large amounts of the population were hopping on a boat straight out of school. Dev's "comely maidens" vision of a rural country of simpleton peasants set us on the road to that, another masterpiece from the maths teacher.

This large amount of nothing lead, as it always does (see almost every third world country) to a small cadre of mé féiners at the top whose sole goal was to make sure they weren't among the huddled masses. Enter Charles Haughey and his crowd of clowns, among them Bertie Ahern. Corruption, a charismatic strongman, large amounts of the public finances being misappropriated, it was a classic case.

Then came the recent wealth and the incredible boom in the Irish economy. Unfortunately for us, the dregs of the same shower of corrupt snake oil salesmen were and are still in charge, and they are still up to their old tricks - witness the recent debacle where a blatant raising of pay, making the Taoiseach the most well paid leader on earth, barring one or two, was disguised by ridiculous statements about knocking half the drivers off the road.

Combine this with the squandering of wealth in the boom times (a vastly increased and better paid public service with gold plated pensions, nothing spent on infrastructure / culture / local industry), and its clear that the same crowd are still at the wheel. This same crowd by the way who had little or nothing to do with creating or maintaining the boom in the first place. This is reflected in the upper echelons of the media, the Hutts in Montrose whose sole goal is to look after number one.

Effective action to express your cultural identity must come from a central mandate, otherwise you wind up with what we have today. So in summary, we were too poor, then we were too busy feeding at the trough (mildly understandable given our history), and the whole deal was mismanaged by a gang of cretins trying to enrich themselves.

So really, the time to take a breath and make a change is now.

Cionnfhaolaidh wrote: »

The biggest threat to Irish culture is the loss of the Irish language. So, I wouldn't say "Fúck You Ireland", I'd say Fúck the Irish Government for destroying our language, the backbone of our culture. Sure even our own Taoiseach can't speak Irish and obviously can't be bothered learning it, so why should anyone else?

Bingo.

Karl Hungus wrote: »

A large sentiment of self-hatred among the masses.

No, you'll find that only among outspoken academics who seem to make public self-flagellation an art form, aping their American ultra-PC counterparts. Most Irish people are very proud of their culture and heritage.

Karoma wrote: »

I personally lay the blame at the door of the angsty whiners that do nothing but bitch, moan and / or criticise and never provide any constructive ideas.

Heres a couple for you so:

Completely revamp the way Irish is taught in schools.
Enforce the requirement for Irish fluency among public servants.
Make grants available for Irish language and culture media projects. Media may be a modern term, but a culture lives and dies by its media output, make no mistake. Lets take for example the more ancient legends - how hard would it be to turn them into Manga-style animated series? I mean we're talking hardcore swords and sorcery stuff here. Sex, betrayal, battles, dark gods, shining heroes, that part of our heritage has it all!
Make tax breaks available for buildings and construction which incorporate Celtic designs, knotwork and the like.
Extend the above tax breaks to include businesses, to attempt to provide an incentive for them to "Irish-up" their advertising and media.
Workshops and training for craftspeople, existing and new, to supply the demand this creates.
Encourage Irish culture through festivals celebrating just that, with the revival of the forms of Irish dancing and music a central point. As an added bonus, tourism would thrive on that. Currently the tourist board is marketing Ireland as a great place to get pissed. Thanks lads.

We know who we are, we just need a focus to apply that to. So basically, fire the management or you'll be stuck in some sort of a twilight zone coronation street scenario for decades to come.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Karoma kicks stray kittens

leninbenjamin

It's the pirates. you know the way global warming has been a direct result of the decline in pirates? well it's the same thing with Irish culture... those damn pirates are the cause of every damn problem in the world, well actually recent studies suggest that it might not actually be the pirates directly that are the cause of the global imbalances, but rather the relationship between the number of talking parrots on the shoulders of captains and the number of peglegs in the fleet, but the ultimate conclusion is the same. we needs more pirates. i propose government training programmes on piracy as well as a massive recruitment drive.

Tar.Aldarion

Why would I talk about some old structures on the random piece of land I was born on?

mike65

I can only put the tone of this thread down to the time its started.

Never start threads in the wee small hours on a Sunday morning, its always maudlin or angry.

Mike.

Archeron

mike65 wrote: »

I can only put the tone of this thread down to the time its started.

Never start threads in the wee small hours on a Sunday morning, its always maudlin or angry.

Mike.

With a hungover head, I can only say

Still, part of whats been said is still true.

gyppo

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

You need to look at the recent historical context before you start hurling bricks. Up until relatively recently, the country was cripplingly poor. Theres only so much culture you can express when large amounts of the population were hopping on a boat straight out of school. Dev's "comely maidens" vision of a rural country of simpleton peasants set us on the road to that, another masterpiece from the maths teacher.

This large amount of nothing lead, as it always does (see almost every third world country) to a small cadre of mé féiners at the top whose sole goal was to make sure they weren't among the huddled masses. Enter Charles Haughey and his crowd of clowns, among them Bertie Ahern. Corruption, a charismatic strongman, large amounts of the public finances being misappropriated, it was a classic case.

Then came the recent wealth and the incredible boom in the Irish economy. Unfortunately for us, the dregs of the same shower of corrupt snake oil salesmen were and are still in charge, and they are still up to their old tricks - witness the recent debacle where a blatant raising of pay, making the Taoiseach the most well paid leader on earth, barring one or two, was disguised by ridiculous statements about knocking half the drivers off the road.

Combine this with the squandering of wealth in the boom times (a vastly increased and better paid public service with gold plated pensions, nothing spent on infrastructure / culture / local industry), and its clear that the same crowd are still at the wheel. This same crowd by the way who had little or nothing to do with creating or maintaining the boom in the first place. This is reflected in the upper echelons of the media, the Hutts in Montrose whose sole goal is to look after number one.

Effective action to express your cultural identity must come from a central mandate, otherwise you wind up with what we have today. So in summary, we were too poor, then we were too busy feeding at the trough (mildly understandable given our history), and the whole deal was mismanaged by a gang of cretins trying to enrich themselves.

So really, the time to take a breath and make a change is now.

Excellently put.

The other thing I would add has been the brainwashing that has been promulgated by the D4 set who dictate our diet of news media. One has only to look at how anti republican/sinn fein the Sunday Independant is. Imo, a lot of the people who determine what is said in this country have an outlook that is more british than Irish.

dotsman

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Heres a couple for you so:
Completely revamp the way Irish is taught in schools.

Enforce the requirement for Irish fluency among public servants.

Make grants available for Irish language and culture media projects. Media may be a modern term, but a culture lives and dies by its media output, make no mistake. Lets take for example the more ancient legends - how hard would it be to turn them into Manga-style animated series? I mean we're talking hardcore swords and sorcery stuff here. Sex, betrayal, battles, dark gods, shining heroes, that part of our heritage has it all!

Make tax breaks available for buildings and construction which incorporate Celtic designs, knotwork and the like.

Extend the above tax breaks to include businesses, to attempt to provide an incentive for them to "Irish-up" their advertising and media.

Workshops and training for craftspeople, existing and new, to supply the demand this creates.

Encourage Irish culture through festivals celebrating just that, with the revival of the forms of Irish dancing and music a central point. As an added bonus, tourism would thrive on that. Currently the tourist board is marketing Ireland as a great place to get pissed. Thanks lads.

We know who we are, we just need a focus to apply that to. So basically, fire the management or you'll be stuck in some sort of a twilight zone coronation street scenario for decades to come.

Cionnfhaolaidh wrote: »

The biggest threat to Irish culture is the loss of the Irish language.

Our government needs to reverse the damage they have done (and are still doing) to the Irish language. They've actively butchered the language with their ridiculous Irish curriculum in State schools.

The most visual disregard of Gaeilge by our government can be seen on our public signage. "Let's promote English by reducing the importance of Gaeilge on our signage (lowercase italics anyone?).

"Irish Rail", as it's now called, have also erected ridiculous "bi-lingual" signage with Gaeilge in orange text; this makes it completely invisible at night under the sodium lighting at DART stations - see for yourself. Are they taking the piss or what?

Luas: They first had completely bi-lingual audio announcements on the Luas but after a few months they removed the Gaeilge announcements "as it may cause confusion to passengers", and they instead opted for English-only announcements, with the only Gaeilge announcement being the name of the stop - same goes for all Irish Rail trains.

How about Dublin Bus (once know as Bus Átha Cliath) - Dublin Bus used to be good in promoting the Irish language by making sure that Gaeilge came before English, and was always the same font size as English. You will notice now that their new bus fleet mostly shows English on the digital destination signage.

So who actually promotes the Irish languiege today?
Gaeilscoileanna - set up by Irish people and not the Irish government.
TG4 - originally set up a as pirate TV station in the Gaeltachtaí against the wishes of the Irish Government.

So, I wouldn't say "Fúck You Ireland", I'd say Fúck the Irish Government for destroying our language, the backbone of our culture. Sure even our own Taoiseach can't speak Irish and obviously can't be bothered learning it, so why should anyone else?

Why do you people always insist on enforcing your language on the masses? What good has it ever done? I am Irish. I can trace back my roots for thousands of years on both my parents sides. All my ancestors spoke Irish. My father spoke Irish as a first language until he was a teenager (went to English speaking boarding school). However, I speak English, as does everyone else. There is no reason why I would ever want to speak Irish. I would rather learn any other foreign language (that might someday have some usefulness) than waste any more of my life being forced to learn something I will never use or want to use.

It is just a language ffs. It is a means of communicating. I don't care what nationality "derived" the language I speak, as long as everyone understands it, it's good enough for me.

It needs to be made a voluntary subject in schools. That way students who want to learn it will learn it, while everyone else can study something else that they are interested in. For me, I spoke better Irish coming out of primary school than I did the Leaving Cert. As a teenager, I did what most teenagers did - I rebelled against something being forced upon me! I very much resisted being thought about Sinead O'Connor and the hothouse flowers via Gaeilge. I mean, give me a break - no kid is going to be interested in that. Who knows, perhaps if Irish was a choice (and the curriculum interesting), I might have actually chosen it and enjoyed it!
No tax breaks/grants should be given to any Irish language-based projects. If it's worth speaking, people will do that without being bribed. (this country has far more important issues to be spending money on)
Road signage, Public transport etc should only have Irish in Gaeltacht areas. What is the point in making the announcement in Irish? For who's benefit is that? There will never be a single person on the Luas who understands the Irish announcement that hasn't already understood the English one. The amount of money wasted by this country every year by making everything bilingual is fcuking criminal.
Keep Irish out of the civil Service. There's already far too much bureaucracy without re-enacting that old bullsh!t rule. It didn't work before, it certainly won't work again. It is inefficient, racist and and complete waste of taxpayer's money.

If Irish is not forced on people, (and the irish LC curriculum is modernised), then people will speak it if they want to, and no one will have any reason to despise it.

I do agree with some of SimpleSam06's other points about culture/history especially the cartoons, buildings & craftwork.

As regards the tourism, I don't think Bord Failte is particularly aiming for the "getting pissed". I think that's just the internationally recognised thing to do in Ireland! Especially these days with city-break holidays. More and more people are opting for the cheap Ryanair weekend away. For Irish tourism, that inevitably leads to - flying into Dublin, doing temple-bar both nights, maybe a museum, Grafton/O'Connell street and Trinity etc between hangovers before flying home on the Sunday evening.

lynnlegend

does any one rember when we were poor i think all we had is been lost on shiney baubles we used to treasure our past and history but now tis all but dust

SimpleSam06

dotsman wrote: »

Why do you people always insist on enforcing your language on the masses? What good has it ever done?

You see, this attitude is a direct result of the warped teaching methods used in schools to teach Irish. Irish is a beautiful and ancient language, I mean money is still directly translated to "silver", and the English are still referred to as "Saxons", and it would be a great shame to see it pass away. Believe me, I understand your point of view, but I'm looking at what could be, not what is. You aren't angry at the language, but what you were put through in its name.

dotsman wrote: »

For me, I spoke better Irish coming out of primary school than I did the Leaving Cert.

As do most. Its pathetic really.

dotsman wrote: »

As a teenager, I did what most teenagers did - I rebelled against something being forced upon me!

But, eh, couldn't you say the same for most of your schooling?

dotsman wrote: »

Who knows, perhaps if Irish was a choice (and the curriculum interesting), I might have actually chosen it and enjoyed it!

No, you wouldn't have, not as it stands. However if you had something for example interesting to watch as Gaeilge, you might be a lot more interested in learning the language.

dotsman wrote: »

No tax breaks/grants should be given to any Irish language-based projects. If it's worth speaking, people will do that without being bribed.

Ah, semantics. One man's incentive is another man's bribe. To get the ball rolling, you need steps like this, however.

dotsman wrote: »

If Irish is not forced on people, (and the irish LC curriculum is modernised), then people will speak it if they want to, and no one will have any reason to despise it.

So again, its how its taught rather than what you are learning.

dotsman wrote: »

As regards the tourism, I don't think Bord Failte is particularly aiming for the "getting pissed".

Actually, it is, very directly and literally. I couldn't be bothered to google the campaign now, but take my word for it.

dotsman wrote: »

I think that's just the internationally recognised thing to do in Ireland!

And you say that like its a good thing.

dotsman

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

You see, this attitude is a direct result of the warped teaching methods used in schools to teach Irish. Irish is a beautiful and ancient language, I mean money is still directly translated to "silver", and the English are still referred to as "Saxons", and it would be a great shame to see it pass away. Believe me, I understand your point of view, but I'm looking at what could be, not what is. You aren't angry at the language, but what you were put through in its name.

True, it might be a beautiful and ancient language, but is it practical? What benefit is there for the masses in learning it? If you could wave a magic wand and grant every person in Ireland fluency in the language, how would Ireland be a better place? What benefit would there be?

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

But, eh, couldn't you say the same for most of your schooling?

Actually, I did like some subjects. I studied Physics, Chemistry, French and Art because I wanted to. I was interested in those subjects and I was good at them. (Fortunately for me I also liked and was good at Maths, so didn't mind that it was compulsory - Hated English literature/poetry though)

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Ah, semantics. One man's incentive is another man's bribe. To get the ball rolling, you need steps like this, however.

But we have been subsidising it all along. We even have a tv channel dedicated to it and still they show Irish speaking programs on RTE. From tax incentives, huge wastage in supporting bilingualism in the public sector to cheap pints. The "ball" has been pushed for the last half century. It's not going to roll any faster by throwing more money at it.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

And you say that like its a good thing.

Certainly not! I can't think of anything more tacky for a tourist to spend their weekend in Temple Bar (let's get destroyed in a cramped, atmosphere-less place, then watch a few fights and some people throwing up before walking back to the hostel in the rain because there are no taxis!). Now, getting drunk in some pub in West Cork (or any similar setting) overlooking some spectacular scenery, whether out at a picnic table during summer or in the snug during winter, having a bit of banter with the locals, after spending the day doing some outdoor activity or visiting some historical/scenic place - that's how we should be selling Ireland!)

SimpleSam06

dotsman wrote: »

True, it might be a beautiful and ancient language, but is it practical? What benefit is there for the masses in learning it? If you could wave a magic wand and grant every person in Ireland fluency in the language, how would Ireland be a better place? What benefit would there be?

You're looking for practical benefits in matters of culture - in fairness, with a viewpoint like that, you may as well have everything painted grey and featureless. What practical benefit is there to art, or music? Yet they are still highly valued, even to being national treasures. And that is what our language is, a national treasure. The brutal mismanagement of it does not detract from what it could be.

dotsman wrote: »

The "ball" has been pushed for the last half century. It's not going to roll any faster by throwing more money at it.

Yes but it does no good to try to push your ball in the wrong direction. If you want to get anywhere you have to choose the right road, something which has patently not been the case for a very long time in this country.

dotsman

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

You're looking for practical benefits in matters of culture - in fairness, with a viewpoint like that, you may as well have everything painted grey and featureless. What practical benefit is there to art, or music? Yet they are still highly valued, even to being national treasures. And that is what our language is, a national treasure. The brutal mismanagement of it does not detract from what it could be.

But being a National treasure has nothing to do with the BS of having it on every road sign and public service etc. For me it is a historical language and should be treated as such. I don't hate Irish, I just don't see how having it forced on everything is going to do anybody any favours.

You couldn't be further from the truth in insinuating that I want everything grey and featureless. I would love to see far more interesting architecture, preservation and reuse of historic buildings - a thriving and bright environment. However, that doesn't mean I want to live in the past. I still want to live in a modern society - roads/rail have to be built, taller buildings developed, efficiency being given a priority. It is very possible to be both practical and cultural at the same time.

As for music, there are practicalities, from setting an ambience to stirring of emotions to entertainment, whether as a song, musical, soundtrack etc. Art, less so, but it still plays an important part of making our that little bit brighter! However, nobody's spending huge amounts of taxpayer's money on forcing people to learn art/music. On a road sign there is no "English" name and then an artist's painting of said town (although that could be interesting!). On the Luas, there is no announcement in English, followed by the announcer singing the announcement! Art and music is available for the people to appreciate at their own choosing.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Yes but it does no good to try to push your ball in the wrong direction. If you want to get anywhere you have to choose the right road, something which has patently not been the case for a very long time in this country.

But the direction that they have been pushing it is the one of making it compulsory and forcing it on people, backed up by tax breaks and grants etc. This is pretty much a similar direction to what you and Cionnfhaolaidh were saying.

SimpleSam06

dotsman wrote: »

But being a National treasure has nothing to do with the BS of having it on every road sign and public service etc.

To be honest, it sounds to me like all these road signs remind you of the rough time you had with it in school.

dotsman wrote: »

For me it is a historical language and should be treated as such. I don't hate Irish, I just don't see how having it forced on everything is going to do anybody any favours.

Who is forcing anything on anyone in what I am saying? I'm talking about making it more interesting, making it more a part of the common parlance, because it is worth saving.

dotsman wrote: »

roads/rail have to be built, taller buildings developed, efficiency being given a priority. It is very possible to be both practical and cultural at the same time.

Exactly my point.

dotsman wrote: »

As for music, there are practicalities... Art, less so, but it still plays an important part of making our that little bit brighter!

Ah you're stretching now. Art and music are the height of impracticality.

dotsman wrote: »

However, nobody's spending huge amounts of taxpayer's money on forcing people to learn art/music... But the direction that they have been pushing it is the one of making it compulsory and forcing it on people, backed up by tax breaks and grants etc.

We keep coming back to the same point; you don't approve of the Irish in the Irish education system. We actually agree on that point, except I'm saying it needs to be thoroughly revamped. You are saying it should be abandoned entirely. I think that would be a terrible waste.

kowloon

leninbenjamin wrote: »

It's the pirates. you know the way global warming has been a direct result of the decline in pirates?

Pastafarians Unite!!!

Tar.Aldarion

Ah you're stretching now. Art and music are the height of impracticality.

Not really, they are much more inspirational, consoling and necessary for people than a language only a handful of people want to know. I would much learn latin or another dead language than Irish, but that is my preference.
I would prefer if everybody spoke the same language.

Ger the man

If you want to learn Irish and speak it, go ahead and do that but please dont force it on people who dont want to. There was a famous book on the LC Irish curriculum called 'Peig' which I beleive turned more people off the language than anything else. It got so bad in our school that the school made the class optional (how I dont know??). IMO the entire curriculum needs to be overhauled to include learning first aid, learning how to drive etc. There were too many preaching zealots (teachers) in this country that forced Irish on you like it was a matter of life and death. I didnt waste any time studying it for the LC and have no regrets about that. I have never used Irish in my working life and never will.

SimpleSam06

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Not really, they are much more inspirational, consoling and necessary for people than a language only a handful of people want to know.

But what is inspirational? I mean seeing a flag for some people causes them to feel proud and happy, for some people its the knowledge that they can appreciate a particular work of art. The natural rhythms and intonations of a language can shape the works produced in that language, and help to create something new and fascinating; it changes the speaker as it is used.

So yes, I would say that the Irish language can be an art form in its own right, and ask yourself this question: would future generations a hundred or a thousand years from now thank you for letting the national language disappear? As far as heritage goes, it doesn't get more real than a full blown language.

Ger the man wrote:

There were too many preaching zealots (teachers) in this country that forced Irish on you like it was a matter of life and death

Knock the teachers, not the thing they are trying to teach.

dirtydress

Ger the man wrote: »

If you want to learn Irish and speak it, go ahead and do that but please dont force it on people who dont want to. There was a famous book on the LC Irish curriculum called 'Peig' which I beleive turned more people off the language than anything else. It got so bad in our school that the school made the class optional (how I dont know??). IMO the entire curriculum needs to be overhauled to include learning first aid, learning how to drive etc. There were too many preaching zealots (teachers) in this country that forced Irish on you like it was a matter of life and death. I didnt waste any time studying it for the LC and have no regrets about that. I have never used Irish in my working life and never will.

I think the people who are against Irish being taught or being *forced* on people are those who believe that it simply has no use. Yes you can argue that art and music have no practical use either but then again those subjects are optional. Thats all people are arguing for,the choice to learn it. Lets face it it might be "nice" to have but unless you're looking for a job on irish television or to be an irish teacher you are never going to use it. Personally I hated Irish, I was no good at it and i spent years agonising because it was so difficult and I wanted to do well in my LC...that simply isnt fair. There were plenty in my class who loved it and would definitely have taken it regardless...let people have a choice!
I also think its total BS to aware students extra points for doing the exam in Irish...I think its totally disgraceful and extremely biased...how about awarding extra points for people who do it in French or Spanish? Or rewarding people who are good at maths and science rather than singling out one group..disgraceful.

SimpleSam06

dirtydress wrote: »

I think the people who are against Irish being taught or being *forced* on people ... then again those subjects are optional. Thats all people are arguing for,the choice to learn it...you are never going to use it. Personally I hated Irish...that simply isnt fair. There were plenty in my class who loved it and would definitely have taken it regardless...I think its totally disgraceful and extremely biased...disgraceful.

Again you are hitting out at the methods used to teach Irish in school, not at the language itself. Its a mistake I see repeated over and over, and its a serious mistake. The problem is with how its taught, not that it is taught.

I agree the teaching methods used currently are an abomination, lets reform them! I mean why throw out the baby with the bathwater?

As for crying over how it is compulsory, maths is compulsory as well, and 90% of people will never use the tenth part of the maths they learned in school. Likewise with English, how many of Shakespeare's plays can you remember? These things have no practical use for most people in their future careers.