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Galway Light Rail?

OTK

Is light rail viable in Galway?

It has been proposed by the Greens and the Corrib Light Rail project. There's some discussion in the Galway City forum
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055059067

Is there any roadspace for it? Any available old railway reservations?

how would it compare to commuter rail out to Athenry/Tuam?

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dodgyme

galway needs something since it is horrible to drive around.

Vorsprung

Maybe start with a decent bus service before you get into things like trams!

dodgyme

bigjimthefirst wrote:

Maybe start with a decent bus service before you get into things like trams!

ah no!, trams would be a better option for galway, I think anyhow.:o

DerekP11

dodgyme wrote:

galway needs something since it is horrible to drive around.

Cart before the horse. There is a tendency to judge and compare Dublin with other Irish cities and thats nonsense. CIE operated extremely poor bus services in Irish cities. Traditionally the double decker was the preserve of Dublin. When BE was formed the madness continued unabated for many years. Improving bus services in Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Sligo and Kilkenny would work wonders. BE have failed as they are still the "provincial bus wing" of CIE. Galway for example needs its own dedicated bus company. Then you would see change. Building a Luas in Galway before even attempting a decent bus network, would be a glorious waste of money. But then thats what politicians in Ireland seem to enjoy, along with a few headbangers with too much free time.

Chris_533976

Buses in Galway will improve somewhat when the Rahoon Road urban DC project is done. They waste so long sitting in traffic there that its stupid.

Lots more buses, more bus lanes, bus shelters etc are needed.

All that said, Galway needs light rail IMO more than Cork does. Cork has a far less gridlocked transport network than Galway. Galway traffic is appalling, most people dont realise just how bad it is.

Maskhadov

is it going to look like LUAS ?

JHMEG

As someone else said, the bus service in Galway is appalling. I lived and worked there for a year and by jebus the service was brutal. Living in a new estate out in what used to be Rahoon, but yet no-one in BE seemed to notice all these new houses, and as a result the busses terminated a mile away. Then trying to get from there to the Monivea road, changing in Eyre Sq... well, walking would have been quicker.

Prof_V

First off, I'd like to make clear that I'm not arguing from the perspective that nobody outside Dublin deserves anything, and that I'm not (that) interested in getting into an argument about urban area definitions - these two things do seem to be favourite bones of contention round these parts

.

I hope I'm not raining on anyone's parade, but internationally there seem to be very few examples of new-build light rail systems in cities with less than about 200,000 people in the built-up area, and none I can find below 100,000. (There are some smaller cities with old-established tram systems, particularly in the ex-communist world; Nordhausen in Germany, which is comparable to Waterford, comes to mind; even in Sweden, there's Norrköping, which is smaller than Limerick. However, I suspect the bar is lower for hanging on to an existing system than building a new one from scratch.)

At the 2006 census, Cork had 190,000 people in the built-up area, Limerick 91,000 and Galway 73,000.

In France, Montpellier (288,000), Mulhouse (234,000) and Orléans (263,000) have built tramways in the past seven years, and Angers (227,000), Brest (210,000), Le Mans (195,000) and Reims (216,000) are building them. (Populations are the agglomeration figures from citypopulation.de; I'm assuming them to be reasonably comparable with the CSO city-and-suburbs figures, which are actually the agglomeration figures the site quotes for Ireland). Elsewhere I know of a line under construction in Bergen, Norway (218,000). The smallest population I've found for a new-build scheme is Bergamo in Italy - 116,000, but this is within the city boundaries (and similar to Mulhouse and Orléans on that basis) rather than the agglomeration.

This tends to suggest that light rail in Cork would justify serious study, whereas Galway and Limerick would be a bit utopian for now but might be future possibilities. Of course, there might be special circumstances in Irish cities that would justify it, but conversely there are others, like density, that would work against it. Some kind of ultra-light rail technology might also render, say, a Galway scheme more viable, but it doesn't really seem to have emerged in workable form so far.

Slice

At the 2006 census, Cork had 190,000 people in the built-up area, Limerick 91,000 and Galway 73,000.

I don't really feel at all strongly about trams in regional cities but is it not the case that the figures in the census obscure the true population of these cities because city boundries have not been adjusted to reflect the growth of those cities? Was there not something about Clare people taking issue with one day suddenly waking up in Limerick and the like..? Lacking regard for such considerations would only lead to poor planning if that were the case.

Prof_V

Slice wrote:

I don't really feel at all strongly about trams in regional cities but is it not the case that the figures in the census obscure the true population of these cities because city boundries have not been adjusted to reflect the growth of those cities? Was there not something about Clare people taking issue with one day suddenly waking up in Limerick and the like..? Lacking regard for such considerations would only lead to poor planning if that were the case.

True, but that's why I used built-up area figures; the exact CSO phrase is "total population (including suburbs or environs)". The populations within the city limits are Cork 119,000, Limerick 53,000, Galway 72,000. The census gives both sets of figures, though the environs ones take longer to come out; the 2006 ones were out about three weeks ago.

I would note that these don't include outlying towns which are functionally linked to the city but not actually part of the built-up area (Carrigaline and Passage West in Cork - though Douglas and Ballincollig are included, Oranmore in Galway), but I don't think, say, French agglomeration figures do either.

Incidentally, the proposed extended Limerick boundary would contain 93,000 on a 2002 basis, and the Cork proposal - which doesn't include Ballincollig -180,000 as of 2006, though we may be straying a bit from the topic here.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Slice

Building a Luas in Galway before even attempting a decent bus network, would be a glorious waste of money.

I made this same point about the western suburbs of Dublin in relation to MetroWest but of course that's a different situation - or is it?

monument

DerekP11 wrote:

Cart before the horse.

Something which should apply to transport and the development of cities. Adamstown is a good example.

If you're really going to go down the 'fix the bus network first' road, then should the same not apply to the Greater Dublin Area?

Capt'n Midnight

monument wrote:

If you're really going to go down the 'fix the bus network first' road, then should the same not apply to the Greater Dublin Area?

Unless they build it faster then the LUAS then fixing the bus network is the ideal solution, if only because a significant proportion of the buses lifespan will be taken up by the time construction is finished and there are are plenty of cities around the country where they could then go for the rest of their lives.

Buses are a quick fix, they give you time to build infrastructure. Its something that can be started tomorrow. And they are essential in low density areas that could never support rail.

SeanW

Thing is, this just might work, as opposed to West On Track's insane plan to rebuild a tramway to nowhere as a heavy railway.

I guess if you ask Galwegians whether they'd like a 3-a-day service to Sligo taking at least 2 hours, or their own Luas, I'd say you'd get some interesting responses.

Prof_V

Just to clarify I'm not arguing from the "fix the buses first" POV, rather from the "can we reasonably expect this to be viable?" one, using population as a fairly crude proxy. I think there are arguments on both sides - I'd say a lot less has been done to fix the buses in the other cities than in Dublin over the past 15 years or so (and a significant amount more will be done in Dublin in the 6-7 years before the bigger rail projects come on stream), but equally there are cases where rail has done well serving areas that were largely ignored by bus (Sandyford for one).

As for putting the cart before the horse, this is fine, indeed desirable, if you can be confident of a horse materialising. I think that, once it became clear that Galway or Limerick was going to hit 150,000-200,000 within the gestation period of a big rail scheme (say a decade) it would be time to start planning in detail. However, I don't think they're likely to reach that point for in excess of twenty years. What can be reasonably done now is long-term planning (I know, I know - not Ireland's strong suit), reserving corridors - remember, for instance, that Luas in Tallaght uses reservations made in the late 1970s - and trying to make sure land use supports the future possibility of rail. Indeed, you could provide for rail and fix the buses at the same time by putting in bits of reserved busway convertible to rail, though I'm not sure where the opportunity exists for that (Ardaun in Galway is the obvious example) and internationally very few busways have ever actually got converted to rail.

DerekP11

Slice wrote:

I made this same point about the western suburbs of Dublin in relation to MetroWest but of course that's a different situation - or is it?

No. I don't think it is. Cross radial bus services could work wonders for west Dublin. Metro west, being a rail based form of transport will not make much of an impact on the cross radial traffic congestion that the M50 and Kylemore road routes represent. We need road, rail and bus. The Liffey Valley hijack job that is the toll bridge is killing the cross radial commute anyway. Politicians think that Luas solves it all. It won't. Buses have a huge role to play and that potential has not been tapped. Rail transport is inflexible and difficult to build. But politicians think its a saviour. What they don't realise is that bus services are badly managed or ignored.

All aboard for An Lar!

monument

Derek, I would agree both are needed for a proper transport network, but could you answer this please...

If you're really going to go down the 'fix the bus network first' road, then should the same not apply to the Greater Dublin Area?

DerekP11

monument wrote:

Something which should apply to transport and the development of cities. Adamstown is a good example.

If you're really going to go down the 'fix the bus network first' road, then should the same not apply to the Greater Dublin Area?

Yes. Im a firm believer in fix what you have before you go on and introduce new fangled methods. In Dublin we have gone off the deep end with Luas/metro, while existing bus services are crap, badly thought out, completely devoid of any new marketing techniques and deemed as the poor persons method of transport. In railway terms the existing network servicing the GDA is grinding to a halt, lacking in any vision and now reliant on funding for the interconnector and additional upgrades to give it any chance. the luas red and green line did nothing for traffic congestion. Why? Because they were planned and built on the basis of a much bigger and far reaching extension of the DART. But Ireland went bargain basement according to revised plans from that good oul dinosaur called CIE. 50 years of hardship has made them incapable of thinking big. That extends to bus services in the likes of Cork, Waterford, Limerick and Galway. They don't care and don't know how to. This leaves the door open for more illjudged political interference from a bunch of idiots, who have absolutely no clue whatsoever when it comes to public transport.

Thats why we get rediculous proposals about putting a luas into Galway and why headbangers go all out to promote it. Look at it this way, if the bulb in my kitchen light is only 40 watt and Im unhappy with the light from it, I'll change it for a higer wattage and not go and buy a brand new light fitting with two 40 watt bulbs. Try explaining that to Ireland's new, "lets spend millions on a tram" brigade. A waste of time.

Mr. Presentable

OTK wrote:

Is light rail viable in Galway?

OTK wrote:

Is there any roadspace for it?

No. It would have to be elevated.

OTK wrote:

Any available old railway reservations?

I don't believe so. After all, until very recently Galway was a medium sized provincial town. No reason to plan for a future

DerekP11

monument wrote:

Derek, I would agree both are needed for a proper transport network, but could you answer this please...

If you're really going to go down the 'fix the bus network first' road, then should the same not apply to the Greater Dublin Area?

Give me time to type!!!!:D Answer above.

RedPlanet

I don't know, but i'm not entirely convinced of the whole Buses before Trams point of view. One thing that gets overlooked i think, is that public transport must be attractive in order to entice people out of their cars, buses are not it.

dmeehan

RedPlanet wrote:

I don't know, but i'm not entirely convinced of the whole Buses before Trams point of view. One thing that gets overlooked i think, is that public transport must be attractive in order to entice people out of their cars, buses are not it.

what about these new fancy "bus-trams"?

Slice

public transport must be attractive in order to entice people out of their cars, buses are not it.

I think the 46A bus route between city centre & Dun Laoghaire is a good example of how busses can entice people out of their cars - the difference is that the 46A has a good service level, is clean and comfortable - much like the Luas. AFAIK they carry about the same number of people also.

The new bus-trams are nothing more than what a regular user of the 46A would expect from a bus route. The fact that they're called bus-trams just goes to show how a common perception has developed about busses that you can't get 46A-levels of service and quality when in fact you can. It's more of an indictment of CIE's bus divisions that they should now try to call a bus service anything other than a bus service because of the image associated with bus services in general.

Ham'nd'egger

DerekP11 wrote:

Yes. Im a firm believer in fix what you have before you go on and introduce new fangled methods. In Dublin we have gone off the deep end with Luas/metro, while existing bus services are crap, badly thought out, completely devoid of any new marketing techniques and deemed as the poor persons method of transport. In railway terms the existing network servicing the GDA is grinding to a halt, lacking in any vision and now reliant on funding for the interconnector and additional upgrades to give it any chance. the luas red and green line did nothing for traffic congestion. Why? Because they were planned and built on the basis of a much bigger and far reaching extension of the DART. But Ireland went bargain basement according to revised plans from that good oul dinosaur called CIE. 50 years of hardship has made them incapable of thinking big. That extends to bus services in the likes of Cork, Waterford, Limerick and Galway. They don't care and don't know how to. This leaves the door open for more illjudged political interference from a bunch of idiots, who have absolutely no clue whatsoever when it comes to public transport.

Thats why we get rediculous proposals about putting a luas into Galway and why headbangers go all out to promote it. Look at it this way, if the bulb in my kitchen light is only 40 watt and Im unhappy with the light from it, I'll change it for a higer wattage and not go and buy a brand new light fitting with two 40 watt bulbs. Try explaining that to Ireland's new, "lets spend millions on a tram" brigade. A waste of time.

Derek, while nobody will disagree that nationally the transport system is lacking, it is a little too easy to play the "Blame CIE" game, especially when it is not the issue at hand here. You know all too well that CIE will run whatever routes and fleet it has to hand, but it can and only will run it given the resources and route licences/trackbeds to do as such; ditto with LUAS, Mortons Circleline, Dualway, etc etc. The problem is the greater issue of traffic management in Ireland, and this buck lies with the Department of Transport and succesive governments, not merely the outgoing one to research, spend and legislate to solve. Some of the ideas are bargain basement for sure, but it was not merely a case of CIE's fault; given the cash to do so, we would have had interconnectors all over (or should I say under) Dublin yonks ago and as Dustin said in his manifesto, bringing the DART to Dingle

(Time to agree with you now

)Now I will not profess any qualification in transport management, but in the short term for somewhere like Galway, additional bus capacity, coupled with bus priority on it's roads will be the only short term solution to it's current problems. It is all well and good to propose a LUAS type tram, but in Dublin LUAS is shifting masses of people on certain routes in lieu of buses over a reasonable distance in congested areas at frequency; does Galway have this scenario to deal with?

If Galway's problem is people entering it from afar as some surveys seem to infer, then maybe the train to Orammore or Tuam or Gort or some handier location may be the answer; if it is longer commuters on the road that pass through or locals going 2 miles into town, different solutions will be required, but not a new tram system.

Slice

as Dustin said in his manifesto, bringing the DART to Dingle

Wasn't that Jackie Healy Rae?

lukas

Thanks to all for a good discussion so far. While I agree with the short-term desirability of improved bus services in Galway and the wider suburban area (the relative success of the dedicated bus lane on the Dublin road may serve as a guiding beacon here), I think it is vital that we finally look forward, rather than backward. Reserving spaces for future possibilities is what it is all about - and in all fairness to the Corporation, the design and lay-out of the Western Distributor Road (God, how I hate that name!) would seem to allow for expansion and development along a host of axes. I would like to take issue with one key idea mentioned by Prof_V in the debate, who invokes absolute popoulation figures when disputing the feasibility of a LUAS-style light railroad for Galway: would not the overall design and lay-out of a city have a lot to do with whether or not such a plan could work successfully? Isn't Galway basically one long stretch of development from Barna to Oranmore? To the south, there's the Bay; to the north, we could steer development along corridors towards Moycullen and Claregalway - so a light railway could be conceptualised along ONE spine serving most of the population. The map put forward by the Green Party tries to acknowledge just that - so that in contrast to many other cities, we would not really need to think along all geographical dimensions...

Prof_V

Lukas,

I've nothing personal against Galway light rail. I did say population was a crude way of assessing it. I do agree that Galway's form is reasonably suited to an east-west rail corridor. However, there are going to be other cities Galway's size elsewhere with similar form, and some of them are going to be denser than Galway and thus even better suited. Thus, if light rail was so suitable to this situation, I'd expect at least some of them to have new-build systems, whereas I can't identify any.

I do agree with what you said about reserving space and directing development towards possible future alignments, and I think this is something it's realistic for Galway to do now in anticipation of reaching the "critical mass" at some point in the next couple of decades.

lukas

agreed, prof_v, and your comparative approach is well founded but (BUT) planning decisions also create opportunities and thereby impact upon future development. A light railroad along say the line proposed by the Greens (see www.eamonryan.ie/images/galwaymapa001.jpg) or Brian Guckian's ideas (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Clr_Route_med2.jpeg) could lead to the kind of higher densities that we in Ireland seem to avoid when urban development is handed over to developers only. Such a line would also create an opportunity towards a change in our current car-dependent culture: if you're stuck in traffic only to see the first, the second and possibly more trams pass you by, it may dawn on some that they could be at work by now. Change that to "home" and you see what I mean!

Slice

DerekP11: No. I don't think it is. Cross radial bus services could work wonders for west Dublin. Metro west, being a rail based form of transport will not make much of an impact on the cross radial traffic congestion that the M50 and Kylemore road routes represent. We need road, rail and bus. The Liffey Valley hijack job that is the toll bridge is killing the cross radial commute anyway. Politicians think that Luas solves it all. It won't. Buses have a huge role to play and that potential has not been tapped. Rail transport is inflexible and difficult to build. But politicians think its a saviour. What they don't realise is that bus services are badly managed or ignored.

I still think it's such a shame that P11 is not a public transport lobby group instead just a rail lobby group, has there been any consideration given to this in the organisation? The above comment is a good example of how such an organisation would be far more effective than one that deals exclusively with rail. I would definitely join and also it would be far more effective at lobbying for rail issues in such a circumstance and have a far larger potential membership base.