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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,576 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Well that was disappointing, more so when you think we performed well in the areas where we thought we were weakest, scrum & lineout, though the lineout success seemed to drop off after the subs came on.

    Falling off tackles, kicking without successfully retaining the ball cost us badly last night.

    We were down 22 - 0 at halftime and John Fogarty says we need to kick longer, to me it smelt of keep it under 50.

    I don't buy into bringing on Crowley anywhere other that at outhalf unless it's an injury, we're picking the wrong players if Crowley is a tactical sub in any other position.

    Because of this loss and out poor performance I don't see Farrell changing his 23 much unless one of his tried & trusted come back from injury.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,384 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,673 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Ahh, hadn't heard that. No luck like bad luck.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Stanley 1


    Daly/Haley good options, Stockdale is past it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    Well, if you have two players performing at a similar level, albeit different styles of player, and one is a few years younger than the other, you generally go with the younger one. Of course, if someone else emerges, you give them time as well. But Crowley isn't getting any younger or better at this point unfortunately. So, whatever the answer turns out to be longer term, it's almost certainly not going to be him.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭almostover


    Same logic would surely apply to Harry Byrne so? Also 26 and at a similar level to Sam. Therefore, Harry also should be jettisoned from the starting jersey for Leinster and Ireland. Sam's our man so unless he fails to improve before his 26th birthday?



  • Administrators Posts: 56,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Not that 10 was the main issue last night, but I'm honestly at the point now where I am wondering if Ireland really should be playing Harry Byrne in the short term, knowing he's a 7/10 player but at least he is solid, just to tide us over for a while until Prendergast hopefully gets better.

    I don't really rate Crowley, I think whoever mentioned Crowley may be more of a ball playing 12 than a 10 may be on to something there, and Prendergast is just too much of a liability in defence, he was ruthlessly targeted last night and any half decent team will look for him in the defensive line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,477 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Change the team all you like but what will we learn if they play well? That they are better than the guys who played last night? Or that Italy at home is a hell of a lot easier than France away? The latter is probably the more realistic conclusion.

    I think the team will be largely the same next week, if they struggle in that game then by all means change it up for England.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭almostover


    I'm going to make my final post here on the topic of Sam Prendergast until after this 6N. Really tired of the mental gymnastics from the Sam fan boy club.

    Yes, he is the least worst option of the 3 OH's we have. Yes, he can be very good at directing the attack off front foot ball. Yes, his kicking out of hand is generally very good. But there's a big but, his physicality remains a major issue in defence. And it hasn't shown much signs of improvement, yet. His goal kicking can be erratic also.

    Yes, he has potential. And yes it will take time for him to fulfil that potential, if he does do that. But that does not make him immune from criticism for poor defence and bad decision making errors in the present. Some of the justification for poor defence and bad errors from last night's game is being explained away by some on here as if it were nothing. Crazy analyses like saying wingers should expect passes under severe pressure behind their own try line and so forth.

    I'll give my opinion of his performace again post tournament. Not engaging on the topic again until then. Happy to be proved wrong if Sam goes on to have a blinder in the remaining 4 games.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Immune from criticism?

    It's hard to think of any Irish international over the past decade who's been subject to more scrutiny and criticism (some of which is patently unfair) than him.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭.Donegal.


    I just watch international rugby so limited knowledge but I’ve seen a criticism of Farrell that he hasn’t really brought in any younger players and perhaps we need a new coach. That’s non Irish people saying that. Is there any real appetite for Farrell to go?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,673 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Saying his physicality hasn't improved is not being truthful. His defense yesterday, and for Leinster, has been markedly better. He was actively looking for tackles yesterday. He's unlikely to ever be a dominant tackler, but he's making the effort. He wasn't getting run over either.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I would disagree insofar as I think Farrell should decide what he wants for England and play it against Italy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,973 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    Crowley should start by improving his own form for his club first.

    People seem to want to ignore that for a bizarre reason. Prendergast has shown more even with his weaknesses.

    Crowley had the jersey at the start of November, because he was playing well up to that point. Since then, for club and country, he has been poor. If people want to say 'but Toulon' then fine. However one acceptable performance since Croke Park? Is that really the bar you want to set this at?

    The exact same thing happened last year. Crowley lost the jersey because his form from November onwards was stink.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,996 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Whose not. Sean Naughton? How do you know? I don't and I'm a Connacht fan.

    You might have noticed I didn't declare he was good enough. I just want to see him get the opportunity.

    As I said he's already started a few games at full back and shown off great goalkicking skills and he's had some great kicks down field as well. He has all the skills to play 10 but until we see him play the position a few times we won't know what he's like.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Short answer, no. He will be here til the World Cup.

    As to younger players - it is a contentious topic. He has shown zero hesitancy in bringing in very young players if he thinks they are good enough. None of the provinces are performing well of late. Ulster possibly the most exciting of them at least and that has been reflected in some squad call ups.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,973 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    "The mental gymnastics from the Sam fan boy club."

    There wouldn't be a need for all of this if you and others here weren't so desperate for him to fail.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭50HX


    This is v accurate & in fairness to him he didnt shy away from anything.

    I suspect Farrell to double down on him at this stage & invest in him as his preferred starting 10 from here to RWC27.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,680 ✭✭✭budhabob


    And how effective were his 13 tackles made. Some he barely offered a speed bump and was driven back still given up metres.

    I will say this, both he and Crowley are subject to far too much scrutiny / criticism because of how Farrell has managed the situation. Good rotation and opportunities would have benefited both far more. In any case, last night Dan Carter wouldnt have made much difference, we were beaten up in all facets of the game (with the exception of the set piece).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 185 ✭✭Jelly Welly




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,973 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    He saved at least two tries.

    And Crowley doesn't get half of the criticism Prendergast gets. This 'both sides' nonsense doesn't apply here.

    Crowley's form has been beyond awful, and yet you have people here wanting him to start, and even another poster referring to him as a 'top class international 10'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,673 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    His tackles were fine, he wasn't getting run over ROG style. He certainly did better than JGP or Ringrose for comparison.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,002 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Why does his one start on the (right) wing for Ireland while Farrell was off coaching the Lions count as Farrell picking him there but his start at 13 while Farrell was off coaching the Lions get put down as "Farrell has never selected him in the centre"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,868 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    If that's his defence improved then please permit me to shudder. There's a few 'tackles' that didn't even make the stats as they weren't even attempts. One in the second half in mid-field where he sort of slid on his knees past the player, bizarre. As usual, post-contact metres on the ones he made are big I'd imagine. Lauding someone for finally making a few tackles (while missing 7) isn't the progress some are thinking it is. JGP and Ringrose were very poor as well in defence and shouldn't escape criticism.

    Wasn't SP close to breaking the Six Nations record for most missed tackles last year? He missed 17 (?) last year I think, he's off to a flyer already with 7. In a position where most outhalves are typically making 70+% he puts in 50+%ers. Crowley was 81% for the 6 Nations we won with him before giving this fella the reins.

    There's a real stench of "Emperor's new clothes" about him and his 'high ceiling'. Unopposed, unpressured, structured play - he shines. Anything else, he doesn't seem to be able to handle it at all. Silly fly-hacking, silly passes in his in-goal, customary intercept pass, hospital pass, endless kicks (that surely must be coach-directed). Really struggle to see how someone can sit there and go 'he played well'/'that was one of his best games in green', God help us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'd like to see metres-conceded post-contact in the tackle stats tbh.

    I honestly think Prendergast concedes a huge amount of ground at times, even when he makes the tackle. It happened a number of times last night.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Firstly, because it was a statement of fact. I said Farrell has never selected him in the centre for Ireland and that is absolutely true.

    Because he actively chose to select him at 14 against France in the 2025 6 Nations despite the presence of other players in the squad who were healthy and could have been selected.

    Selecting him to start for the Lions in the last midweek game of the tour, when the Lions were doing anything they could to protect players from the Test side (especially in the centres where there were injury doubts around a lot of players) doesn't tell me a lot.

    I, personally, would prefer if Leinster and Ireland would see him and use him as a centre, but I just don't expect it to happen based on all of his selection history to date.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,996 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    A lot of those who came off the bench were a lot better than what they replaced

    I'm convinced that JVDF has regressed a lot now. I think Timoney has to get his opportunity now after how he played last night.

    People talk about Milne in the scrum and he seemed fine there last night and his overall performance was very good. He was very good from off the ruck both with ball in hand and as support.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,973 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    Crowley and Prendergast's tackle success rate from last night is similar, if that's how you want to compare the two.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭almostover


    I'll be very disappointed if Timoney doesn't get the 7 jersey vs. Italy. No slight on VdF but Timoney has earned his shot now.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 841 ✭✭✭MangleBadger


    It was definitely a quiet game for Josh. But I don’t think he has been playing badly across the season. He was very good on the Lions. And he has been very good for Leinster. Can’t remember how he was in the AIs.



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