Munster lineout was very good this evening and we also competed well in the maul. The scrum is now a major issue across all 4 provinces.
However, this for me is a issue with the way the game is being refereed. There's no point playing a hooker anymore because hooking the ball is no longer required. The scrum is a contest for possesion via the hook. After the hook it becomes a pushing contest. That is no longer the case. If the feed had to be straight then the whole thing would change immediately. Ireland would nearly be better off playing 3 props in the front row and having VdF throw to the lineout. Porter would be an ideal modern day hooker, can't not scrummage straight in the middle.
And yes, Edogbo if he was fit before now should have started tonight. Notice how Beirne went into lock when we had 7 in the scrum Tom Aherne's height makes it awkward for scrummaging. Tom was brilliant for us tonight but needs to focus on being a 4 now and add a few kilos.
I agree it’s far from ideal.
What’s the solution?
Start with a new head coach anyway
So there's Boyle, McCarthy, clarkson are likely 3rd choice front row, and o Brien 3rd choice left wing. They struggle against a team missing 5 players to Wales. I don't get the issue? Who are you saying should be instead of them? How many Wales 3rd choice players are in the dragons squad?
Why isn't the picture that despite only having 3/4 x 3rd choice Ireland players players (and snyman) they can win away. Munster with a stacked team lost at home to stormers tonight, who were missing 5 players, why aren't we celebrating how good Leinsters backups did?
Not sure if this is to me, from a rugby point of view it's true, and of course from an Irish point of view, it makes sense (for someone to move), but for McCarthy, there's loads of reasons he might not want to.
Edit: replying to lawrencesummers
We do seem to have a bit of a crisis in the front row. Leinster have been pretty good scrummaging wise this season no matter what configuration of props and hookers they've used. They appear to be the only province capable of producing decent scrummagers at URC level at least.
Can see maybe one of Boyle or McCarthy moved to another province to shore up the loose head side.
probably because Leinster backups were heading for a beating only for Penny to dodge a red card and Slimani and Snyman to make the difference, for a team stacked with future Irish internationals it was poor.
Munster are on the crest of a new manager bounce, and a settled team still came up short against stormers. the decision to allow kleyn play for SA looks to have been a foolish one
Why? There's been loads of front row players moved in the past few years, who has benefited from it?
What would you like to see a new head coach do?
More importantly.
WHO is this new coach going to be??
Leinster backups? Your point was Irelands 3rd choice, have you named more than 4 Ireland 3rd choice?
How were they heading for a beating? They were 17-10 up. Do you really think dragons would have scored a try and more points in the time left?
Also, I don't agree (like the 4 officials) that the penny card was a penalty.
You're original point was taking a dig at the Ireland 3rd choice (well 3 or 4 of them) , narrowly beating dragons by 14 points, away, should south Africa be worried 1 out of 8 of their second choice only beat the drageons by 14?
Crowley, Casey, Beirne, 1st/2nd choice players got destroyed beat against a stormers side missing their internationals tonight. That's much more worrying
The solution is not to weaken Leinster. Humphrey’s said the same. Gus and Boyle and Clarkson will all get plenty of game time the next few months, enough fo make the 6Nations squad.
the other provinces simply should have done more the last 10-15 years to produce more players. There has been millions spent on player pathways etc for what? So many of the props in Ireland have come through with Leinster.
A 6 point loss where we lead for 3/4 of the game is "destroyed"
Who did Ireland lose to by 6 points to ?.
Am I in the wrong thread ?
See post #49191
Sorry, I missed this last week as was away for a few days.
On the piece about the penalties against the Munster scrum that day, I got that wrong. The source was one of those AI-style reports at the top of a search, but it isn't borne out in any of the recaps.
I would note though that comments from posters mid-game are still obviously a hugely relevant metric for assessing performance, and it is clear posters were critical of the Munster front row (and Loughman specifically) during that game. FWIW - Planet Rugby had Wilco Louw in their team of the week for that game week too.
Step back from it all though - the initial contention, in the context of a number of back and forth comments sharply critical of the Irish scrum, was that "Loughman is test level at scrummaging", something that simply isn't supportable. His supposed record against Wilco Louw is (i) extremely limited (one game), (ii) dated (hasn't faced him in over a year and a half) and (iii) at best he achieved parity.
Andrew Porter - the guy who was getting all the criticism - faced Wilco Louw as recently as June in a final and won multiple penalties against him.
Loughman's (and the Munster scrum more broadly) struggles against the Stormers on the weekend would actually suggest he is not test level as a scrummager.
Also; while we're there, you've brought up the Porter 6 penalties thing a few times now in this context. Here's the post at the time which quite clearly addresses that:
One of the 6 penalties in that game was for scrummaging (and he also won a scrum penalty in the same game), so I don't really get the context of it around the discussion of the referee's interpretations of the scrum in the South Africa game.
Discussions around hypothetical provincial wins or losses in the URC are now in Ireland thread ?.
I had been under the, clearly wrong, impression that discussions of provincial matters should be confined to provincial threads. Obviously it's difficult to separate individual players performances & form at their clubs from national team selection, but here we are again.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irfu-pays-1m-for-two-bed-home-beside-aviva-stadium-as-it-continues-to-expand-dublin-4-property-empire/a1488101374.html
Would think the IRFU policy is quite straight forward, they tried to negotiate collectively with residents but it all fell apart and left with gap at Havelock Sq end, they now have to pick them off, one by one.
IRFU have sought to buy up surronding residential properties for years with possibly a hotel in mind which would do well in that area regardless of sporting fixtures.
I don't know if that is aimed at me… but I didn't make the original post. I just responded that I don't think losing by 6 points in the way that Munster did equates to being 'destroyed'.
Report the original post if you have an issue with it I guess?
He's not first choice and won't ever be.
He needs to go to another province to have any chance to contest for a spot on the bench for the Six nations.
You know this how?
Sheehan could be injured tomorrow. kellehers form is up and down at the best of times. McCarthy could well over take him in the next year.
Wow. Sheehan could get injured. 😂
He's behind Kelleher as well for club and country. .
Yes McCarthys's currently number three at Leinster right now. However, with Kellehers recent form he could well see himself as Leinster's no 2 in no time. At 22 why wouldn't he stick around and see if he can displace the 27 year old ahead of him?
As hilarious as you seem to think the suggestion is, injuries could well play a part as well. Sheehan was out for 6 months last year, Kellehers had plenty of time out as well. McCarthy could very quickly find himself up the ladder. Time is on his side.
Agreed.
Why would McCarthy move to Ulster to fight it out with Stewart for the no 2 Ulster jersey, and in turn the 3rd Ireland slot, where he's fighting with Stewart anyway currently.
Why would he move to munster who have only recently signed another Leinster hooker, and have signed a South African hooker for next season?
And why would he move to connacht who are playing challenge cup rugby this season and have struggled to qualify for champions cup rugby over the last few seasons when meritocracy was applied?
Being 3rd choice in Leinster hasn't done his Ireland chances any harm so far. There aren't many 22 year olds out there with 7 Ireland caps already.
This is all if and buts. He could potentially spend the next five years as Leinster no.3. That's the stark reality of where he's at right now.
If he stays he might get lucky, if he goes he has a much better chance of displacing Kelleher.
would he not develop more by playing more games for another province? Any argument to say that he will develop fine with Leinster training/coaches and with limited minutes doesn’t fly in my opinion but I understand some people do feel that way.
On a different tack would it not be more interesting for spectators to watch more head to heads with international places on the line?
Gus McCarthy was 21 at the start of last season and played 20 games for Leinster and Ireland before he turned 22. Twenty senior games for a 21 year old front-row player is pretty good going so I'm not sure what problem he would have solved by moving elsewhere.
One of the side effects of having so many internationals at Leinster is that it creates lots of gaps for young players to get opportunities.
I'm sorry, and I'm not saying McCarthy should go to Connacht, but it hasn't hurt Bealham, Aki or Hansen's international careers by not playing in the Champions cup.
It's ifs and buts if he goes elsewhere too though. There's nothing concrete to suggest his career would flourish if he goes to another province. He could end up going backwards or stagnate like many others have.
There is however, concrete evidence to suggest he's flourishing where hes at. In that he's leap frogged 2 other players in Lee Barron and John Mckee and looks like he's poised to do the same with Kelleher. Along with picking up a bunch of Ireland caps on the way.
FWIW - I still amn't hugely sold on Gus McCarthy's international prospects. I think he has the ability to be a very solid and serviceable player, but I don't see an elite player there, and I think if Stephen Smyth can sort his throwing he could surpass him and would expect Lee Fitzpatrick to in time.
He just lacks top end athleticism IMO.
He got his chance because of Leinster's dire injury situation at hooker at beginning of last season, and tbf he performed really well and then got the Irish chance because of a bigger injury crisis there, and equally did really well with the opportunities. He's clearly a guy who has a superb attitude and a good rugby IQ.
I still think John McKee is a better hooker than him right now if I'm being honest.
