I think what the coaches need to do is stop relying on Leinster players so much. Once upon a time they were undoubtedly the strongest team in the British and Irish Isles and many of those players deserved their places at the time. Times have changed and it's time to diversify the Irish team if we want to start winning again
I'd imagine the thinking behind Tom Farrell is for the 2026 edition of the 6 Nations, I don't think he'll make the next world cup! I think somebody gave a statistic a few months back that finishing 3rd in the 6 nations is worth around the same as winning the world cup in financial terms so I'm glad to see evidence that they aren't trying to 'build towards the World Cup' at least
Ireland were beaten up all over the field against South Africa. The scrums did not go well and porter is getting the full blame but porter was not doing anything on purpose. James Ryan with his 20 minute red card, Crowley and prendergast with their yellows, that’s 40 minutes down men from real brain dead decisions. and given the pressure we were under at scrum there was some shocking silly mistakes that lead to even more scrums.
For me it’s all about the coaches, lineout and scrum are not in good, strength in depth is not really being developed and Farrells decisions do not make sense. For examples, as a Munster man I am delighted Farrell got game time but with the Irish cap on it makes no sense at his age, Casey did not get enough game time, furlong played too much game time. I am on record previously saying the coaching ticket is stale and I think it is. You can argue the players are not there and that’s fine but we have control over the coaches. For me Farrell must make some tough choices now.
Absolute nonsense this. You're trying to make this a provincial pissing contest based on an opinion that Michael Milne is an awful scrummager which, for the record, he absolutely is.
There are no detailed match recaps to be found, from the cursory look I had.
Those posts though were posted literally in the middle of the game in question, and no one challenged the view put forward either.
Once again here - the OP posted up about how Loughman has done "really well" against Wilco Louw, as some sort of argument that he should be selected to start at LHP for Ireland, and he (and you fwiw) have refused to engage repeatedly with the fact that Andrew Porter won multiple penalties off Wilco Louw as recently as June.
Is it fair to assume that if you're quoting a poster from Boards and indeed Munsterfans to back up your argument, that there was nothing in those match recaps about the Munster scrum or Loughman in particular?
I'd have Bishti and Niall Smyth as far better prospects than Mullan currently, Bishti more that likely too young, Niall Smyth is a bit of a freak so its certainly possible but he needs to prove he can remain injury free for long enough to get Leinster minutes.
He really is a poor scrummager. There's a reason he was behind so many at leinster. Himself and John Ryan got annihilated against porter and Furlong this season.
Yeah, my problems with Milne clearly only started once he signed for Munster in, checks notes, May 2024. This wasn't a provincial pissing match. Why are you trying to spin it that way?
You can check previous Leinster threads for discussion on Milne and how he could be developed into a better all round player. For years we've been talking about his weakness in the scrum and it still hasn't been resolved. The search function here isn't great, but dig far back enough and you'll see a lot of criticism of his poor scrummaging.
Here's one here discussing Milne's move to Munster.
Your last statement is actually laughably ironic.
Here, funnily enough though is a comment from a Munster fan, on the Munster thread, from smack bang in the middle of the game in question (20 April 2024):
Also some interesting posts on the relevant match thread on Munsterfans from the game, where, amongst other things you have posts stating things like "our front row just aren't at the level we need" etc etc.
And, just to remind everyone - you started this out by claiming Loughman had some sort of great record against Wilco Louw. He's had one game against him in his whole career, 18 months ago.
You have refused to respond / acknowledge the fact that Andrew Porter was part of a Leinster scrum that dominated the Bulls in the URC Final this past June.
I believe that Milne was injured when Boyle got a call. I also believe Lee Baron was injured when Gus got a call. But I'm no expert on Leinster props.
You've an awful bee in your bonnet over Milne, since he joined us… interesting. Literally any time someone mentions him on here you're straight in saying he's an awful scrummager. He isn't, I think you need to revise your opinion.
Doing what? Your initial post was about squad sizes. South Africa's autumn squad was 36 players, ours was 34 players.
It's not harsh in the slightest. Milne has been in the Leinster, Munster and Ireland system for years and still struggles to scrummage competently. My abiding memory of him is getting his shot in the Champions Cup against La Rochelle a few seasons ago. Came in with 20 minutes to go and the set piece battle we were winning turned into a La Rochelle rout. It didn't really matter on the scoreboard as we were well ahead, but he got his chance and couldn't capitalise.
He's 27 in February and I just struggle to think he'll ever come good now. Which is a shame because he's clearly an above average rugby player in every other facet of his game. There's always the chance he can rapidly improve as a scrummager. Tom Clarkson has become a competent tight head remarkably quickly over the last 18 months for instance. But as recently as last month Milne was part of a Munster scrum that was demolished by Leinster's. I just don't see any improvement in him.
MOD Jim please stop making the cohesian and 8 from Leinster point as to why players should be picked. youve said it countless times in this thread. we dont need to see you repeat it every few posts.
Claiming players from other provinces have too much to catch up on is unfair on everyone. the players/coaches. cohesian isnt an issue
not someone I ever want to see start a serious test game for Ireland.
This seems way too harsh, the guy's only 26 and could yet improve. Where was JGP when he was 26, for example.
Michael Milne is an awful scrummager. It's why he was leapfrogged by Boyle at Leinster last season and why he could never break into the Leinster or Ireland set up with regularity, despite being at the perfect age point for it.
He's significantly worse than Porter in that regard and not someone I ever want to see start a serious test game for Ireland.
I can't think of any front rowers from the other provinces who should be given a chance to stake a claim. I was thinking maybe Wilson at THP (apprentice type player), Stewart at Hooker, maybe Milne over Boyle. Milne had shown a bit more form than Boyle earlier maybe.
But they are risky choices. I doubt those 3 could get up to speed quickly enough. Who could you drop? Bealham? You couldn't drop any of the 8 from Leinster. Would lose so much scrum cohesion and scrum familiarity from the squad.
That's why I was thinking should Andy look further down the Leinster depth chart, Smyth at THP? fast track him over Bealham? McKee at hooker, Cahir/Usanov at LHP, not sure are they a major upgrade on the existing lads
Exciting times..
No there really isn't even anyone close. Rassie was playing the meta before Andy even knew the rules had changed.
Rassie is doing it.
Is there a better coach than him in the Ireland set up?
The royal "we"? I've given examples earlier, but you might have to do some reading.
We’ve still yet to hear which props are unfairly being overlooked who would have saved our scrum against South Africa
That's not thinking at all actually. You're deferring any thinking to Andy Farrell. That's different to thinking.
And guess what it also shows, the the Bulls didn't retain 2 of their scrums.. So Munster retained 100% of their scrums and the Bulls did not. You just made up the whole story or you might have some unconscious bias against Munster that if affecting your very thought process.
Rassie subbed some of his front row on Saturday before half time. No one here could claim they were subbed because they couldn't deal with the Irish scrum.
I think international coaches know how to run a training session.
I remember watching that match back a couple of times at the time, as it was such a big win, and my own recollection is that the scrum held up manfully that day tbh. Curious what the match recaps said, as obviously in general, there was much praise for Munster iirc.
Presumably shootermacg's point is that in those stats, Bulls also lost 2 (the same stat shows them as winning 6 from 8) which, you'd imagine, means Munster won those?
As an aside "Loughman was hauled ashore after 51 mins", seemingly implying that the time he was subbed indicates a poor performance, is obviously flawed.
I know Porter routinely goes 65, 70+ minutes, but it's not at all atypical for front-row forwards to be subbed off early into the 2nd half. Case in point? Didn't Venter and Thomas du Toit both come off very early on Saturday?
I can't say I remember in detail what Loughman's scrum performance was like that day, but it doesn't at all follow that just because he was subbed / "hauled ashore" on 51 minutes that he was poor, either in the scrum or indeed in general.
How about 46, two full teams? You can put your projected ones versus twos. If a one is losing out in the scrum or the lineout or isn't tackling great then you bring in the best performer in that position from the twos.
How big a training squad do you want?
We had 34 players in the Ireland squad for the November series, and a further 28 players in the Ireland A squad. If you take it we can c. 160 pro players in the country, 38% of them were in a rep squad this November alone.
How do you make that out?
What he's clearly saying is we train with a much larger squad. Based off of that training we then pick our best 23.
That’s not what that scrum stat shows - it just shows if a team retained the ball on its own put in. For example - the same stat shows Ireland as 4 from 4 and 100% from last Saturday’s game.
Munster’s scrum gave away at least two penalties early in that game, something covered in match recaps of the game.
In any event - Loughman was hauled ashore after 51 mins, and it was almost a year and a half ago. What’s your response to Porter winning multiple scrum penalties in a final as recently as June?!
