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Who actually wants the Dublin Airport passenger cap abolished?

the_amazing_raisin

So I saw the CEO of Stripe moaning about "a few residents of Fingal" being able to decide how many people can go through Dublin Airport per year

Skipping past the fact that its several hundred thousand people, I can't help but wonder who is actually going to benefit from the cap being abolished

So before I dive in, some disclosure. I live close to the airport and am affected by the noise of the planes. However the airport was here first so I knew what I was getting into when we bought the house. I would say the early morning flights are the worst as there's usually a lot of background noise at other times of day anyway

Regarding the passenger cap, I realise the airport is struggling to stay below it but so far the only people who seem to be upset are DAA and a bunch of airline CEOs who apparently aren't making enough money

As arguments go for removing it, the main ones seem to be more jobs and cheaper flights.

I personally don't think it'll lead to many more jobs as the country is pretty close to full employment already. Most likely DAA will just try to utilise the existing airport resources more and keep the same number of employees as much as they can

Same for cheaper flights, there's a lot of cost pressure on airlines and they tend to only offer low prices on routes they compete on. I wouldn't be surprised if any savings from removing the passenger cap are pocketed by the airline instead of being passed on

So regarding the cap, I agree it needs to be reviewed but I think this should be an ongoing process between various stakeholders instead of completely abolishing it

However the attitude from DAA in particular seems to be to try and work around FCC and just lobby their personal TD of choice

It seems pretty pointless in any case since FCC isn't able to enforce it

I also can't help but wonder if there's an opportunity here to force some investment into other airports. I know there was some grumbling about it being "not economically viable" but that mostly seemed driven by DAA who aren't likely to want to invest in the competition

I have a suspicion that people living in Galway, Limerick or Wexford might be happier to drive an hour to a nearby airport rather than 3 hours to Dublin and possibly have to spend extra on parking or an overnight hotel

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Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123988321#Comment_123988321

The reason they're all in the one place is because you keep dodging them.

But, here we go:

You said you would reduce demand. When asked how you would reduce demand, you panicked and edited your post to say you would reduce the prices.

Ignoring, for a second, that this would increase demand, which is the opposite of what you originally wanted to do, HOW WOULD YOU DECREASE PRICES?

CardF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123988436#Comment_123988436

Well I didn't (panic).

A few posts later I said:

"Right then reduce price. Thank you for pointing out it was me and not somebody else."

Is that a dodge?

As you can see, its a typo.

Anyone with a sincere interest in the topic would either ask or just assume a typo. And look to the greater implication.

Your previous post confused me with another commenter, and went down a long path of ranting at the wrong person.

And at least two other people in here have misquoted me, with accusations. And another cn barly wrte legble Englis in haaf hs pots.

But I don't make that the central issue.

I provide links, references and snapshots. Relevant to the topic.

Great references. I have the best references. Thats what people are saying. They say how come you have the best references.

( I wouldn't decrease prices. I would let them rise or remain. I want to dissuade not encourage people using DUB. Not encourage. Because the city is functionally under heavy strain in many areas)

CardF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123964987#Comment_123964987

actually, on checking this i was right first time round.

i offered an hypothetical of reducing demand, which would indeed reduce price.

which is correct. perfectly in line with basic microeconomics.

the opposite mechanism being increasing demand would increase prices.

offering more flight capacity at the airport would indeed reduce prices initially. as my opponent suggests. passengers having more flights to choose from.

however, that capacity will fill farily quickly. as lower prices induce demand.

Leading to upward pressure on prices over time as the increasing demand kicks in.

In line with the analogy of building more roads, which works for a while, and then just means more users and more traffic.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123989046#Comment_123989046

It's why you continually increase capacity to keep prices stabilised while demand increases.

More "users" = more growth and economic activity and growth of GDP, lack of those is called a recession and reduces quality of life for everyone.

Hotblack Desiato

New slots from Dublin to Dortmund, Montpellier, Norwich, Liege, Plovdiv and Skopje.

Great news.

CardF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123989215#Comment_123989215

You can't just continually increase capacity unilaterally, its part of a greater structure.

High profile concerts in the city midday throughout the week would increase gdp too. In one area at least. Might fck the rest of the city but we'd get some shekels alright. Well by us I mean the organizers mostly.

https://x.com/dkhintze/status/1988295657946567137

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123989378#Comment_123989378

Whataboutery.

CardF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123989765#Comment_123989765

good lad.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123988514#Comment_123988514

That's not a typo, that's just the wrong word completely.

A few posts later I said:
"Right then reduce price. Thank you for pointing out it was me and not somebody else."
Is that a dodge?

Yes, it is. You were asked HOW you would reduce prices, multiple time, by multiple people. You dodged it at the time, and you've just dodged it again. The last line in the post by me you just quoted was "how would you reduce prices" and you've literally just dodged it.

I wouldn't decrease prices.

This contradicts everything you've said over the last week on the matter. Okay then, we’re back to square one………how would you reduce demand, in that case, if you're not going to reduce prices?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123989046#Comment_123989046

Hypothetical? You didn't offer anything of the sort, and that's what everyone is asking you for. You said "reduce demand", then ignored anyone who tried to get you to elaborate. That's not a hypothetical, that's just a statement. You refused to actually provide one, despite the many requests.

Also, your logic doesn't pass the smell test. What you're essentially saying is "1 More flights = 2 more supply = 3 Lower prices = 4 Increased demand = 5 Higher prices, in the long run". The demand is already there, so, without increased supply, the prices will be increasing anyway. So instead of doing 1-5 above, and getting a few years of lower prices, you want to go straight to number 5 and the higher prices without going through 1-4. How is that better?

Make it make sense?

Leg End Reject

Mod - @CardF and @Yeah Right, knock off the bickering, ignore other if you can't engage civilly.

Hotblack Desiato

Okay then, we’re back to square one………how would you reduce demand, in that case, if you're not going to reduce prices?

A stopover - somewhere near Limerick I reckon…

CardF

Mod Edit: Warned for ignoring mod instructions

satguy

This post is in 20/11/ 25 …

In ten years time, ,, Baldonnel Aerodrome ,, will be on the hook, to be Dublin's second Airport .. we need it..

Hotblack Desiato

That is never going to happen. Totally unsuitable location. DUB can expand no problem. Heathrow handles over 80m passengers a year with only two runways.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124002455#Comment_124002455

We don't need it and it would make every single problem significantly worse.

SeanW

There's two questions those calling for the continued passenger cap have yet to answer, and they follow:

Given that we had policies to restrain Dublin Airport in the 20th century (too short a runway, the Shannon Stopover and other nonsense) and it yielded nothing but negatives, why should we repeat this mistake with 21st century policies like the passenger cap?

Given that Ireland is a remote island without the opportunities to connect to other countries with high speed rail, what alternatives should be made to ensure good passenger connections with the rest of Europe and the world?

Idbatterim

I love the lying and hypocricy! Worried about aviation emissions, are you worried about the rampant over consumption of the planet? Fast fashion endless disposable single use crap etc ... Spare me!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124012999#Comment_124012999

World's biggest multistorey car park right beside the airport. Somewhere like Ashbourne. Only a short shuttle bus away. Because there will be no space on the other car park. The M50.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124013374#Comment_124013374

The M50 is only a car park in the peak hours. Late at night etc it's perfectly fine. Perfect for night flights. Getting rid of night time restrictions on the Airport would help a lot. The Dublin Metro will also help a lot, by giving people other ways of getting there.

Aside from that, I don't know what more buses would fix.

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123900400#Comment_123900400

No it isn't. Noise disrupts sleep and disruptive sleep gives rise to illnesses of all sorts.

Frankfurt airport is one of the busiest in the world and strict no landing or taking off from 11PM-7AM is legally enforced.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124013402#Comment_124013402

That not true I've hit grid lock at the weekends and the middle of the night coming off a late flight.

M50 perfectly fine lol.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124012999#Comment_124012999

I'll take these questions

Given that we had policies to restrain Dublin Airport in the 20th century (too short a runway, the Shannon Stopover and other nonsense) and it yielded nothing but negatives, why should we repeat this mistake with 21st century policies like the passenger cap?

So I'd argue it has yielded some positives. One positive of the passenger cap is that traffic volumes on connecting roads is given an indirect cap. Airlines are also, in theory*, forced to choose other airports on the island to fly into and out of so it promotes regional investment. Removal of the cap would hinter these benefits

Given that Ireland is a remote island without the opportunities to connect to other countries with high speed rail, what alternatives should be made to ensure good passenger connections with the rest of Europe and the world?

There are 9 airports on our island (6 in the republic, 3 in the north) only one of those are subject to a cap so there are multiple alternative methods to connect Ireland to other countries by air. You also have ferry ports in Roslare, Cork and Dublin for good passenger connections to Europe and the rest of the world. A fixed connection to the UK, be it bridge, tunnel or a combination of both will need to become a reality in time, it's more of a "when" than an "if" situation

*I accept that in practice airlines are announcing new routes such as the recently announced Aer Lingus Dublin to Nashville, Indianapolis and Marakesh, despite the cap

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124013408#Comment_124013408

https://www.frankfurt-airport.com/en/flights-and-transfer/departures.html

Plenty of departures before 7AM.

Flinty997

When someone says the longest runway in Ireland is a sum negative it's not a serious discussion.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124013784#Comment_124013784

I would say if space permitted then 2 shorter runways would have made more sense than one longer one. I'm open to correction but to my knowledge the only plane that couldn't land at Dublin due to the runway being too short was the AN-225 and spending money on a runway for one plane shows a level of silliness in the upper management decisions

I wouldn't call it a sum-negative though I would also point out that Shannon still has the longest runway in Ireland at 3,199m

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124013408#Comment_124013408

It's background noise that you get used to. Frankfurt isn't serving an island population and is largely a transistion airport, so very different than Dublin airport

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124013755#Comment_124013755

Airlines are also, in theory, forced to choose other airports on the island to fly into and out of so it promotes regional investment.

That's demonstrable false though. The cap was based on the design capacity of T1 and T2. It had nothing to do with distributing air traffic nationally. Airlines operated freely out of Dublin for 16 years. Without a single flight being prevented by the cap. And the original wording of the cap stated that once reached, there should be application submitted to expanded further. The cap is about planning for the future, not limiting air traffic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124013808#Comment_124013808

Two shorter runways would have made no sense. There's no benefit to 4 runways. And depending on how short they were, some flights would be limited.

I'm open to correction but to my knowledge the only plane that couldn't land at Dublin due to the runway being too short was the AN-225 and spending money on a runway for one plane shows a level of silliness in the upper management decisions

This is mistaken on two counts.
The primary purpose second runway wasn't to serve bigger planes. It's was to increase capacity. The single runway capacity was around 35-40m. The parallel runways can serve 80-90m. Obviously we needed a added a runway.
It's more about taking off than landing.. The south runway is underspec for long range aircraft. Eg. Extended range 777s, A340/350 and 747s. They need reduced weight to operate from the south runway.

I wouldn't call it a sum-negative though I would also point out that Shannon still has the longest runway in Ireland at 3,199m

And Shannon is that length so that it could accommodate the Space Shuttle. More silliness?

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124013830#Comment_124013830

Nonsense. . . . It's one of the biggest airports in the world.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124014316#Comment_124014316

what part is nonsense. what % of the people using the airport actually exit it? Its not the same as Dublin airport which services an island population. lots of trains and road provide alternative routes that simply aren't an option for islanders.

Frankfurt also has 4 runways.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124013995#Comment_124013995

Correct. the cap was not introduced to balance the countries airports activity but it is a knock-on effect of it

I did say that I was open to correction

The Shannon airport runway was built in 1945. The space shuttle was the 80s so the runway wasn't built for it, also not sure they'd specifically build a civilian airport for the benefit of a US space exploration vehicle. AFAIK the reason for the length of the runway was because airplanes serving the transatlantic flights at the time needed more fuel, so were heavier and needed the longer runway. As you correctly say, it wasn't a negative at the time but you wouldn't do it today for certain